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  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Rats nest in panel

    When you see this do you take the time to read the manufacturs instructions regarding breaker capacity or simply recommend evaulation. I could barely get the cove back on.

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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    The label says the breakers in this box have been selected to protect the wiring. Got a problem with that?

    I see an empty slot and and an unused breaker. I'd ask them to put the doorbell ringer someplace else.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    It appears some of these breakers have been reused from another panel that had over spray paint on them.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Aside from the door bell transformer being in the panel, I don't see a code violation there. Although you may see the work as a bit sloppy, the code does not regulate ugly. The panel does not appear overcrowded, splicing is allowed in the wiring space, I don't see any damaged conductors and that bit of overspray isn't going to cause deterioration or failure. Some inspectors use NEC 110.12 to replace parts that have been subjected to overspray, but in this particular case that may be a liitle harsh.

    Last edited by Ray Norton; 05-12-2011 at 10:27 AM. Reason: punctuation and add comment.

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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Also, there looks to be several hot double taps in this panel.


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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Those double taps look like shadows to me, but I didn't enlarge the photo.


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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    First, don't be insulting rats, they may be messy, but not this bad.

    1) I see some bare copper conductors coming into the top of the cabinet, but I fail to find any EGC connector bus.

    2) I would say the Neutral bus is heavily overloaded in part because there appear to several "pigtailed" neutrals in the bottom kluge of wires. (sneaky way of getting around the number of conductors allowed in the holes as opposed to installing additional neutral buss bars.

    3) What is the listed capacity for this panelboard? I cannot determine that.

    4) Is this panelboard listed to accept slim-line breakers?

    I've got a GE catalog, somewhere around here, I'll have to dig for it.

    For a 150 Amp panelboard this is a real busy cabinet. I remember reading in the NEC that there is a 70% fill allowed for this size cabinet. Of course I cannot find the citation now, because I'm looking for it. I'll try looking for conduit fill that may I stand a chance of finding what I'm actually looking for.


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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post

    4) Is this panelboard listed to accept slim-line breakers?
    GE twins ONLY fit a GE panel & other makes do not fit unless they are hacked up (modified) to fit, unless the panel was built to accept a twin breaker, it will NOT fit, this only applies to Goverment Electric, (GE) panels.


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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    "Twin Breakers" are not slim-line breakers. A slim-line is a 1/2 size independent breaker.

    Also, without knowing the model number and date this pabelboard was installed, I can't find the specs on the panelboard.

    Finally, the 2008 edition of code increased the panelboard capacity to 42/84 spaces. So, with that in mind, I still hold that this panel is overloaded, because of the number of circuits in use on the panelboard most likely exceeds the design specifications for the max number of circuits.

    Finally, I still contend that by pig-tailing several neutrals together and connecting multiple neutrals to one hole on the neutral bus is in itself a violation that says "Unless listed for multiple wires, there is to be one wire / one hole.


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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    "Twin Breakers" are not slim-line breakers. A slim-line is a 1/2 size independent breaker.

    Also, without knowing the model number and date this pabelboard was installed, I can't find the specs on the panelboard.

    Finally, the 2008 edition of code increased the panelboard capacity to 42/84 spaces. So, with that in mind, I still hold that this panel is overloaded, because of the number of circuits in use on the panelboard most likely exceeds the design specifications for the max number of circuits.

    Finally, I still contend that by pig-tailing several neutrals together and connecting multiple neutrals to one hole on the neutral bus is in itself a violation that says "Unless listed for multiple wires, there is to be one wire / one hole.
    Easily identified by the photo of the right half of label (easily read) provided in the OP. The left side of the label would further identify age/NEC edition reference for the UL listing & marking guide in effect at time of manufacture; and wiring diagram. The 2008 NEC has nothing to do with this panel installaton - and your contentions and misapplication of that code edition to this panel is off-base. You should review the UL WhiteBook and the Panelboard Marking Guides applicable as well as the Listing Standard editions if you want to "apply" the distinctions with differences as you are drawing unsupported, illogical, and erroneous conclusions.

    Panelboard installation date has nothing to do with the applicable standards for the listing at DATE OF MANUFACTURE and LISTING.

    TL 2015 Mod 1

    Breaker types are listed and labeled restrictions. this is MLO, no main installed, service disc likely outdoors at Service point, as is locally required in OPs (Mat's) area which would make the supply to this enclosed panelboard most likely a feeder, possibly a "main power feeder", 3-wire; which has a bare neutral - and I don't see it terminated or where the circuit grounds are being termnated although in one photo appears a collection of copper solid conductors at the middle right. I do not see a grounding kit installed - hard to see much in the photos.

    Power feeder too long, bending raduis - overfilling at top. Power feeder cable not properly stripped entry secured or sealed. See at least one splice below N bar missing wire-nut or other appropriate splicing equipment.


    Type TL 2015 Mod 1

    20 1" spaces, 150 A Mains/Bus Type TL = GE MLO.

    20 ea. max 1" spaces, total ( i.e. 20 max one-pole 1" spaces, or
    10 ea. max 2-pole 1" spaces,)

    20 ea. max one-pole 1/2" spaces, are allowed only in the lower half.
    8 ea. max two-pole 1/2" spaces, are allowed only in the lower half.

    total max one-pole devices = 30 (20 ea. one-pole 1/2" spaces max at the bottom half, plus 10 ea. one-pole 1" spaces above on the top half).

    IIRC 1/2" size CBs are NOT allowed in the top 10 positions, only regular (1") size allowed on top, 1/2" size or half-size, only allowed in the lower half.

    Therefore there are three 1/2" size breakers too many in the top half(three one-pole devices). The three pictured in the middle (9 & 10) aren't allowed there. Move 1" lowest right (12) up to the top half, move two 1/2" size breakers down to where the 1" breaker is, and replace the other 1/2" size breaker in the top half with a 1" single pole breaker.
    Total number of devices and poles is correct, just in the wrong place(s) for the breaker sizes allowed at least one 1/2" size needs to be substituted with with a 1" size, the other two can be moved.



    30 max Single Poles (device counts) 10 SP 1" and 20 SP 1/2"s or halfs.

    Use only with GE type
    THQAL
    THQP
    THHQP
    THQL
    THQL-AC
    THHQL-AC
    THHQAL-AC
    THQL-GFCI
    THHQL-GFCI
    TXQL
    TQAL-AB (110A Max)
    OR
    TQDL (125A Max)
    Brealers


    See 30 poles/devices - that's 3 1/2"s up in the top half that shouldn't be, presuming I'm recalling the wiring diagram correctly, and would be overfilled for heat ratings, limitations, venting, with the 1/2"s up in top half. The lowest right 1" breaker could be moved up to the top most 10 postitions. That would still require removing one 1/2" and relocating the other two down.

    That would mean that there are no useable unused spaces, and there are too many devices for the panel, (one) and three are located in incorrect locations, despite contentions of others. Would have to see wiring diagram and rest (left side) of label to know for sure if overfilled as far as air space/heat break space wiring diagram limitations, in case I'm recalling the limitations of this panel diagram incorrectly, etc. and see more into inside of panel/better pictures. Can't see DF to know if knockouts/fillerplate are right.

    16 yrs+/-.

    2008 NEC not applicable. This enclosed panelboard was manufactured way prior to 2005. The 2008 and 2011 UL Panelboard Marking Guide speak to "Legacy Products", as does the NEC. In no way does changes in the 2008 NEC allow for use of more than the Listing did, The Listed, Labeled restrictions, ratings, etc. always rule.

    Pigtails and splices of a N conductor are not a problem, your contention that same in someway violates the one-terminal/one N conductor is not supported or based upon fact, code, standards, practice, or electrical theory.



    Mat,

    Always read the Listed Mfg's labeling and review the wiring diagram. Its there to be read... and to be reviewed BEFORE you remove the DF cover.
    If you got the Left half of the label (wiring diagram and limiations) photographed, that's the one to post up.

    This panel has a problem, its incorrectly positioned, and over filled with devices in the wrong places (1" sps 9 & 10 has 1/2"'s), not in accordance with its listing, labeling, and wiring diagram (presuming I'm recalling correctly what has not been provided by you). Which leads me to believe that non-CTL 1/2" devices have been installed, not in accordance with the panel's listing and labeling and presents a potential fire hazard.




    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 05-17-2011 at 03:15 PM.

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    Smile Re: Rats nest in panel

    H.G.

    Back up a tad, there sunshine.

    My reference to the 2008 NEC was not an application of the 2008 code to this panelboard. My statement was that the 2008 raised the number of allowable circuits within panelboards.

    This panelboard appears to me to be carrying more circuits that were allowed by previous code levels. At least from what I see in the picture.

    Of course, if the panelboard is listed for that many breakers, then so-be-it.

    I looked at the label before I made my comment, unfortunately I cannot find my GE catalogs because somebody rearranged my piles of "stuff" while trying to be helpful!


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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Spaces 9 & 10 contain three 1/2" size single pole breakers not allowed in those positions, as I recall the wiring diagram for a TL2015.

    Suspected NON-CTL marked 1/2" size breakers have been installed. May or may not even be actual Listed or Classified breakers for this panel, installed.

    The 1" breaker at 12 can move up to 10. One 1/2" breaker does not appear to be in use.

    Its not the ttl number of devices or poles but the sizes of the MCCBs and where located in the panel which is of issue; and the apparent modification, or use of non-CTL in the smaller size, or use of non-Listed (possibly bootleg or counterfiet) or non-Classifed breakers for this panel.

    Interrupted splatter pattern suggests re-use of breakers from another panel.

    Selected quotes from UL Marking Guides:

    If more than one size unit is intended for use in a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard (such as a full-size and half-size circuit breaker), the smaller unit is required to be marked "Class CTL" or "CTL" The larger may also be so marked.

    Since space is limited on these units, the marking may not be visible after the unit is installed. The CTL Unit marking is of significance only in those areas where the older style non-CTL, half-size, twin, and similar units are still available to the installer.
    A panelboard to which a unit, such as a cricuit breaker, switch, or the like, may be added in the field is required to be marked to identify the units that can be added. Units made by different manufacturers or of a differnt style are not identical in all details and therefore may not be iinterchangeable.

    The ONLY exception is for Classifed molded-case circuit breakers rated 15 to 60 A, 120/240 V ac that have been investigated and found suitable for use in place of other Listed circuit breakers in specific Listed panelboards. These breakers are limited for use with panelboards rated 225 A or less, 120/240 V ac. The circuit breakers are Classified for use in specific panelboards in accordance with the details described on the circuit breaker, or in the publication provided therewith. These breakers are suitable for use in equipment connected to circuits having a maximum available system short-circuit current of 10 kA.

    Plug-in clips and blades must be matched if poor connections and overheating are to be avoided. Additionally, over-surface and through-air electrical spacings, between live parts of opposite polarity and to grounded metal, often depend on the proper mating of units and the bases into which they are plugged or bolted.
    See http://www.geindustrial.com/catalog/buylog/01_BL.pdf

    I'm not your "sunshine".





    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 05-17-2011 at 03:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    This particular panel is listed to have 30 circuits, and that what it has.

    I'm not sure where the idea comes from that the panel is too full as 42 circuits has been the max in panels for a very long time. This doesn't exceed that, and I expect the percentage of fill in any of the cross sections hasn't been exceeded either, and this, not the number of breakers, is what limits the wire fill in the panel. The fact the panel could have had too many breakers installed makes it a pre-circuit limiting design.

    I disagree with HG's position that the narrow breakers aren't allowed in the top positions because GE builds the busses in their panels so it is impossible to install a narrow breaker in a slot where they aren't allowed. Panel allows 30 circuits, panel has 30 circuits, and the panel has a buss that allows the breakers to be installed where they are. I find no literature that confines the narrow breakers to the bottom 2/3rds of the panel, only the total number of breakers allowed. The panel would be legal with 30 narrow breakers and some empty slots. New panels aren't built this way. I'd venture to guess the person who wired this mess was aware of the 30 circuit limit and applied it given the number of wire nutted hot wires and an empty breaker slot. I've seen a number of older panels that did have restrictions on what kind of breaker went where indicated by a drawing included as part of the panel label but don't recall one on a GE panel.

    What is wrong is the multiple grounds under one screw visible in a couple of places I can't see a ground buss) and the wire nutted neutrals - - UNLESS the hot wires in the same cables have the same treatment. Another neutral buss should have been added though as there's plenty of length on the neutrals. And the double wired breaker with the transformer,. The transformer itself is also an issue.


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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Alright, alright. PMs and emails received. Hip waders donned, I'll wade through the crap river spouted and respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    This particular panel is listed to have 30 circuits, and that what it has.
    No it doesn't have 30 CIRCUITS. Hint: It has 2 2p breakers, see size. Try counting circuits again.

    However, the number of "circuits" is not relevant to this panel.

    Size, location, and total Number of "devices"/poles (as in switching poles) is as per UL testing and listing Standard and marking guide.


    The fact the panel could have had too many breakers installed makes it a pre-circuit limiting design.
    Wrong! ABSOLUTELY WRONG, for ANY panel which has MORE than one rating, allowable use, etc. CTL has to do with the limitations of the smallest size device allowed by listing.

    This panel is convertable and dually rated. For example it IS listed to be used with an alternate wiring split single phase (2-wire - NO NEUTRAL) and 240V only (no slant-rating) breakers. The limitations are more restrictive when used as such and it is obvious you are not familiar with either the standards for listing, just what and how a CTL panelboard does and does not do by design, nor when usurped by improper of field installations.
    Shame too, because I quoted two sections from the UL Marking Guide for Panelboards, and the language I quoted earlier is even identical to that of the 2011 edition referencing now the 2011 NEC. Yes even today enclosed panelboards for residential may be convertable for use as service equipment or not; MLO or Main Breaker(s) for MAINS, and many are rated for more than one wiring supply.


    I disagree with HG's position that the narrow breakers aren't allowed in the top positions because GE builds the busses in their panels so it is impossible to install a narrow breaker in a slot where they aren't allowed.
    wrong. It is only impossible if correct breakers are utilized AND installed in the postions INDICATED upon the wiring diagram, panel instructions, etc.
    I don't care that you disagree - because you are misinformed, out of date and in error.

    Panel allows 30 circuits, panel has 30 circuits,
    Count again. "poles" for counting devices does not equal number of "circuits".

    ...and the panel has a buss that allows the breakers to be installed where they are.
    And your point is...???

    You are assuming non-altered, LISTED, specified breakers all CTL, are installed to non-altered bus.

    Alignment throughout does not suggest your assumption.
    Just because a non-CTL 1/2" Q can be installed, doesn't mean it MAY be. Just because a bootleg, counterfiet, or USED breaker can be installed, doesn't mean it MAY be, nor does it mean it is SAFE.

    I find no literature that confines the narrow breakers to the bottom 2/3rds of the panel, only the total number of breakers allowed.
    Then you aren't looking, or want to find even the most basic of literature - i.e. wiring diagrams and enclosed panelboard labels, or GE catalogs, order sheets, specifications, you know, "literature".

    You wouldn't. What you would find is wiring diagram upon the panel along with instructions, as well as catalog literature, etc. which confines the 1/2" breaker sizes to the bottom HALF of this PARTICULAR panel, and further limits two-pole 1/2" slot size breakers to 8 in the lower half.

    TL2015 and TLM2015.


    The panel would be legal with 30 narrow breakers and some empty slots. New panels aren't built this way.
    WRONG. The panel is NOT legal with ANY narrow breakers in the top 10 slot positions. What you suggest would be a use not in keeping with the panels LISTED instructions, LIMITATIONS, and its LISTING. It would be a violation to do so see Article 110.

    WRONG. NEW panels ARE built this way. You can get a TLM2015CCU this way TODAY. SAME RESTRICTIONS as to where and how many 1/2" size breakers you can install and where. CTL.



    Plain as the nose on your face - linked to GE's freaking catalog earlier, which you ignored - try actually looking at one - whoopie you'll find...wiring diagrams and a KEY as to breaker/space/slot size limitations EGADS!!! Perhaps if you actually read a Residential GE panel label and wiring diagram for less than 200 A rated MAINS...

    I'd venture to guess the person who wired this mess was aware of the 30 circuit limit and applied it given the number of wire nutted hot wires and an empty breaker slot. I've seen a number of older panels that did have restrictions on what kind of breaker went where indicated by a drawing included as part of the panel label but don't recall one on a GE panel.
    This panel is not limited to 30 circuits it is limited to 30 single poles. The limitations as to number of circuits DEPENDS upon what has been field installed. In the instant topic as installed the panel is limited to fewer than 30 "circuits" the panel is labeled as a Type CTL enclosed panelboard. Type 1 enclosure.

    Your limited recollection and experiences aside. ALL LISTED enclosed panelboards MUST have a wiring diagram. They must be LABELED according to UL 67. It has been this way for many, many decades and generations/editons of the standard.

    What is wrong is the multiple grounds under one screw visible in a couple of places I can't see a ground buss) [color=red]and the wire nutted neutrals[/COLOR=red] - - UNLESS the hot wires in the same cables have the same treatment.
    I see no such multiple screws securing multiple grounds. Are you sure you do? I agree an equipment grounding bus is required. Perhaps the plastic cables were only recently added. In the old days if metalic conduit wasn't required. The neutral bus should have been isolated from the factory, UNLESS this panel has somewhere labeled 'suitible for use as service equipment' or similar, which pre-2005 it MAY so indicate, esp. circa 1995 panels.

    Wire nuts on circuit neutrals... sheesh!
    Why do you think this is in anyway a problem? Spliced, pigtailed or tapped neutrals not a problem. Especially for MWBCs. Its a non-issue, especially for 120 V AC circuits on a Split Single Phase 120V/240V 3-wire 150A or less feeder panel. There isn't a wire nut on a conductor lead less than 8 inches inside the panel, let alone 12" , or less than six inches from termination. Its a total non-issue. Now the missing wire nut or other legit splicing and insulating method on a twisted pair - that's a problem.


    Another neutral buss should have been added though as there's plenty of length on the neutrals. And the double wired breaker with the transformer,. The transformer itself is also an issue.
    32 conductor capacity neutral buss was and is sufficient for this TL2015 MLO General Electric 3-wire 120/240 v ac Single Phase, non-service equipment, enclosed panelboard "load center" there is and was no need to "add" more than the factory supplied in this area, which was sufficient to the maximum capacity for this non-service equipment, residential, 3-wire, CTL Light & Appliance Panelboard.

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    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 05-17-2011 at 08:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    As far as buying a panel "like this" today, if breakers aren't allowed in a particular part of a panel there is a rejection device required (the CTL, or circuit limiting requirement) or in the case of GE and narrow breakers, a special tab has to be (factory) added to the buss to allow the installation of the narrow breaker. There's nothing to attach it to otherwise. GE even goes so far as to cut half the buss tab off spaces where two breakers could otherwise be installed when only one is permitted. Maybe if you got your nose out of the computer screen once in a while and actually looked at the product in question you might know what you're talking about. New GE panels are built so that the catalog locations of breakers are LIMITED BY THE BUSS DESIGN of the panel. Not so in the pictured unit. Single numbers and letters different indicate a different part, and the catalog page you show is NOT for the panel in question even if the thing has the same number of spaces.

    As a bit of education, drag your backside to a supply house and ask for a tandem non CTL breaker and a tandem CTL type breaker. You'll find the non CTL breaker has a full depth slot on the rear so it will fit over an un-notched buss bar and the CTL compliant breaker has the slot blocked by a metal tab so that it can't fit on an un-notched buss. GE accomplishes this by simply not providing the buss to put the skinny breakers on in the first place. And, the 2 pole skinny breakers have a metal rejection tab preventing them from being installed where not permitted.

    Can't find multiple grounds under one screw? Try looking at the terminal above the red wire on the right side in the middle pic.


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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Again,

    You have...

    No clue.

    The TLM2015 is a product offered today. It is a convertible MLO or Main Panel. If you only had a clue. You claimed no CLass CTL GE panels had such limitations and requirements. THEY DO.

    As far as no literature as to what is offered TODAY, its there, read it.

    As far as to no literature as to what was offered YESTERDAY, and before that, its there, you have to read it.

    As far as your earlier claim of MULTIPLE screws holding down MULTIPLE grounds - I dispute that.

    I mentioned ONE location, you are now focusing upon that same location.

    No multiple screws just ONE location pictured.

    You have apparently forgotten what YOU actually typed/said.

    Because NOW you are changing what YOU said.

    As usual you miss the details.

    As far as how one can defeat a GE Class CTL enclosed panelboard bus - its done every day. Its not "legal", its not "right" but its done. You are mistaken in your assertions regarding position rejection for breaker type size.

    You have, however, been shown, as usual that your statements aren't correct and are based upon assumptions not upon facts.

    The UL marking guides for panelboards have spoken to these issues for many, many years. As the language of the Standards have changed, and as the language of the NEC has changed, so has the language and requirements of the Marking Guides.

    The UL Standards for panelboards and MCCBs also speak to same.

    It is quite obvious you haven't read either, any edition, or comprehended what it said, for a very, very long time (strangely a very, very long time to you is apparently only six years or so).

    Quite a library of the various editions, Standards and marking guides.

    Notice you haven't even tried to support your "postion" regarding spliced, tapped, or pigtailed 120 V ac neutrals.

    Notice further that you seem completely unable and/or totally ignore the "clues" regarding just what the vintage of this panel actually is.
    hint - its older than 2005, breaker types.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 05-17-2011 at 10:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    I reviewed my post and I see I said there were multiple grounds under one screw, and in the next post I identified one of two places this appears to be an issue.

    Maybe a good night's sleep and you too can read what was actually written. Honestly H.G., you even start crap with yourself and are too self absorbed to even notice. Hope they can get you on some good meds one of these days.

    CLASS CTL PANELBOARDS
    Circuit-limiting panelboards (known as "Class CTL" panelboards) are identified by the words "Class CTL" on the UL Listing Mark.
    Class CTL panelboards incorporate physical features which, in conjunction with the physical size, configuration, or other means provided in Class CTL circuit breakers, fuseholders or fusible switches, are designed to prevent the installation of more overcurrent protective poles than that number for which the device is designed and rated.
    —2008 UL "White Book

    Now, I really don't care how you twist this around, the CTL requirement is to limit the number of and type of breakers you can install in a panel. If the GE panel in the OPs pictures can have breakers installed in positions such that the total number of allowed poles (circuits) can be exceeded, it is a non-CTL panel (pre 1968) - the panel guts have been swapped, or the label is the wrong one for the panel. Given the total number of poles permitted for the panel (30), the total number of poles installed (30), and the fact there is room for one more skinny (that would make 31, H.G.), the panel either is NOT a CTL panel or the label isn't the right one for the panel. IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO COTTEN PICKEN DIFFERENCE IF THE PANEL IS CONVERTABLE OR NOT, the label says it is a CTL panel and the buss configuration says otherwise.

    Last edited by Bill Kriegh; 05-17-2011 at 10:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post

    As far as your earlier claim of MULTIPLE screws holding down MULTIPLE grounds - I dispute that.
    I agree with you Bill K, looks like multiple grounds in a lug on the right side above the red and blue conductors.

    Last edited by Jim Port; 05-18-2011 at 08:07 PM.
    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    I agree with you Bill K, looks like multiple grounds in a lug on the right side above the red and blue conductors.
    I count 4 grounds in that one terminal on the right side, and 2+ in the similar terminal on the left side (the 2 are visible, then they are blocked by the conductor in front of them).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Rats nest in panel

    Jerry, after your post I looked on the left side about 5 breakers up from the bottom and it looks like the same arrangement as the right side.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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