Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    116

    Default GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    Has anyone heard of any code that says a GFCI circuit cannot service more than one room. A friend has insisted that an electrical inspector would not allow him to have a single GFCI protected circuit service his kitchen and dining room. I know the answer but I cannot find anything that supports it.

    Similar Threads:
    F.I.R.E. Services

  2. #2
    Mark Beck's Avatar
    Mark Beck Guest

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    First of all, GFCI's aren't required in a dining room. Second, often times GFCI's are daisy chained...you may have 1 reset in say the garage, and all bathrooms and exteriors are tied to it. I hope this was as clear as mud.....just trying to help.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    116

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    I know that GFCI's are not required in a dining room. But often times I find dining room receptacles tied to the GFCI circuit in the kitchen. The argument I'm having with my friend is whether this is a code violation. I know it is not a violation but I can't find anything that supports it. I tell him that I find it all the time that one GFCI circuit protects all the bathrooms in the home or exterior GFCI's that also service the garage etc. He says, "regardless of how often I find it, it's wrong". He says a GFCI circuit cannot service more than one room.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New Westminster BC
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    There's no general rule limiting the number of rooms a GFCI circuit can serve but there are several rules related to kitchen outlets that in most cases prohibit a circuit serving a kitchen outlet from serving another room. In other words the GFCI protection is almost certainly not the problem.

    Where in the kitchen, and for what purpose, is the outlet or outlets on the circuit in question?

    If an outlet is a kitchen counter outlet, then the 20th edition Canadian Electrical Code Rule 26-700 (11) or the equivalent rule in another editions or jurisdictions applies. Such rules specify that kitchen counter outlet(s) must be on a separate circuit (or circuits) which may not supply any other outlets (e.g. dining room outlets). So the inspector should not allow a circuit serving a kitchen counter or counters as well as a dining room outlet.

    If a kitchen outlet is away from a counter but is serving a dining area in the kitchen, Rule 26-722(e) says it must be on its own circuit.

    If the kitchen outlet is for a refridgerator, Rule 26-720(a) says that must be on its own circuit too. If it's for a built-in microwave, Rule 26-720 (d) says the same.

    So when could you have a kitchen outlet on the same circuit as a dining room outlet? I am not 100% sure, but if an outlet in a kitchen is away from a counter, fridge, built-in microwave, or dining area, and is there for general purposes such as plugging in a vacuum cleaner or miscellaneous electronics, etc. then the rules may not prohibit it from being on the same circuit as a dining room outlet (although that is not a 100% guarantee the inspector will allow it).

    Please do tell the answer you already have.

    FN

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Anglin View Post
    Has anyone heard of any code that says a GFCI circuit cannot service more than one room. A friend has insisted that an electrical inspector would not allow him to have a single GFCI protected circuit service his kitchen and dining room. I know the answer but I cannot find anything that supports it.



  5. #5
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    I don't think I've ever found a GFCI outlet in the dining room, or servicing the dining room.

    In one of the jurisdictions here, they like to put a GFCI outlet in the garage that services the garage and all the bathrooms in the house. It's the only jurisdiction here that does that. And it becomes a lot of fun when it's a hillside, 3-story home.

    In all the other jurisidctions, it's not unusual to find a bathroom GFCI outlet servicing all the bathrooms.


  6. #6
    Guy W Opie's Avatar
    Guy W Opie Guest

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    The Nec does not prohibit GFIC from serving outlets in other rooms. It does state what are the required circuits and what is needed to protect them.

    Receptacles in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1) may also be fed from the same circuits that feed the kitchen countertop receptacles. The other rooms include pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms and similar areas.

    So, if the dinning room outlet is fed from a kitchen GFI outlet it code compliant. Majority of the time they are connected on the line side not load side of the GFI.


  7. #7
    craig laMere's Avatar
    craig laMere Guest

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    Sounds like the dining room is adjacent to the kitchen and it was "convenient" to jump off that circuit to power the outlet in the dining room.
    I do recall for somewhere that a GFCI can serve more than one rooms outlets as long as the other fixtures are not on that circuit. If the lights or fans are on the protected circuit, they must be separated.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Upstate N.Y.
    Posts
    116

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Anglin View Post
    Has anyone heard of any code that says a GFCI circuit cannot service more than one room. A friend has insisted that an electrical inspector would not allow him to have a single GFCI protected circuit service his kitchen and dining room. I know the answer but I cannot find anything that supports it.
    Ok..I'm pretty sure the confusion here is regarding Arc-Fault protection not Ground Fault.

    Per 210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C) , and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

    Per 210.12 Arc-Fault circuit-interrupter protection, (B) dwelling units, All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways or similar rooms or area shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

    What does all of that say?

    Basically, a dining room outlet shall be on an AFCI protected branch circuit and since that circuit is required to be part of the two or more 20-ampere small appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1), it then must also be GFCI protected when it serves the kitchen countertop.

    I may be completely missing the mark here but this has been the subject of confusion for electricians in my area of inspection and I can't help but wonder if the origin of the question from Bill Anglin's friend might have been mis-communicated in the translation.

    How do we do that?

    Branch circuit originates from an AFCI circuit breaker, feeds the dining room receptacle outlet and then branches to the kitchen countertop receptacle outlet which has a GFCI receptacle installed ahead of any additional receptacles in the kitchen.

    If I'm wrong.......never mind.

    Last edited by Richard D. Fornataro; 05-13-2011 at 06:48 AM. Reason: spelling

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Chico,Ca
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by craig laMere View Post
    Sounds like the dining room is adjacent to the kitchen and it was "convenient" to jump off that circuit to power the outlet in the dining room.
    I do recall for somewhere that a GFCI can serve more than one rooms outlets as long as the other fixtures are not on that circuit. If the lights or fans are on the protected circuit, they must be separated.
    Small appliance branch circuits may not have lighting, range hoods, etc. on them, there are some exceptions. 1) being the power for a gas range...

    If anyone says GFCI's may only serve 1 room, show me the NEC code art.


  10. #10
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Anglin View Post
    Has anyone heard of any code that says a GFCI circuit cannot service more than one room. A friend has insisted that an electrical inspector would not allow him to have a single GFCI protected circuit service his kitchen and dining room. I know the answer but I cannot find anything that supports it.
    Bill

    The NEC allows for a kitchen 20 amp small appliance branch circuit to serve the receptacles in the dining room. What I think the inspector was not allowing was a single small appliance branch circuit could not serve the kitchen countertops and the dining room receptacles. The receptacles serving the kitchen countertop must be gfci protected and you must have 2 small appliance branch circuits serving the kitchen countertops not just one 20 amp branch circuit.
    It is fine to extend one or both of the small appliance branch circuits to the dining room, however it sounds like a 2nd 20 amp small appliance circuit was not available in the kitchen and therefore would be in violation of the NEC. So IMO the inspector was saying your friend needs to add a 2nd small appliance branch circuit to the kitchen countertops..


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV / Plano, TX
    Posts
    23

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    All comments are correct, and there may also be local requirements that further restrictions. For example (as previously stated) an outlet that is within 6 feet of a water source can be located in the dining room adjacent to the kitchen sink. Bathroom GFCI's are in different rooms and one will typically control all other bathroom(s) outlets.

    The limitation is what is the limitation of the "Load" side or subsequent number of outlets, typically this will be four. Depending on the size of the home you may have a lower floor half bathroom GFCI control front exterior outlets and a Kitchen GFCI control the rear exterior outlets.

    Often a Garage GFCI will control all exterior outlets, or bathroom outlets. In some homes you may find a GFCI breaker in the panel rather than a duplex outlet type.

    Some hallway outlets or outlets in the Master Bedroom closet will control the lights in bathroom located above a sink or bathtub due to local requirements. The main thing to remember is that, this is a safety device and it functions as designed by the manufacturer.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,246

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Taylor View Post
    All comments are correct, and there may also be local requirements that further restrictions. For example (as previously stated) an outlet that is within 6 feet of a water source can be located in the dining room adjacent to the kitchen sink. Bathroom GFCI's are in different rooms and one will typically control all other bathroom(s) outlets.

    The limitation is what is the limitation of the "Load" side or subsequent number of outlets, typically this will be four. Depending on the size of the home you may have a lower floor half bathroom GFCI control front exterior outlets and a Kitchen GFCI control the rear exterior outlets.

    Often a Garage GFCI will control all exterior outlets, or bathroom outlets. In some homes you may find a GFCI breaker in the panel rather than a duplex outlet type.

    Some hallway outlets or outlets in the Master Bedroom closet will control the lights in bathroom located above a sink or bathtub due to local requirements. The main thing to remember is that, this is a safety device and it functions as designed by the manufacturer.

    Lee,

    Several of the things you mentioned are not allowed or not applicable, and have not been allowed or not applicable for quite some time.

    Here are a few of the things:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Taylor View Post
    an outlet that is within 6 feet of a water source can be located in the dining room adjacent to the kitchen sink.
    The within 6 feet of a kitchen sink went out in 1996.

    The limitation is what is the limitation of the "Load" side or subsequent number of outlets, typically this will be four.
    Where do you get the four limitation from?

    Depending on the size of the home you may have a lower floor half bathroom GFCI control front exterior outlets
    Bathrooms have been required to be on their own circuits since 1993 (as I recall).

    Often a Garage GFCI will control all exterior outlets, or bathroom outlets.
    Shouldn't, not since 1993 (as I recall).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV / Plano, TX
    Posts
    23

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    Thank you Jerry, that is why I stated to check the local requirements. Each area is different and the Inspector needs to be aware of this. In our area, an outlet IS required to have GFCI protection if it within six feet of a water source and especially around pools as stated in the county pool code. There are also requirements in the region I serve for ARC faults be installed for bedrooms in homes constructed in 2006 and later. The NEC is a standard which local authorities can place further requirements that are more stringent than the NEC. So yes, I will continue to call this in my reports.

    However, the short answer is yes. At least that is the correct answer for my region.


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Charlotte NC Licensed in NC and SC
    Posts
    597

    Default Re: GFCI circuit servicing two or more rooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Bill

    The NEC allows for a kitchen 20 amp small appliance branch circuit to serve the receptacles in the dining room. What I think the inspector was not allowing was a single small appliance branch circuit could not serve the kitchen countertops and the dining room receptacles. The receptacles serving the kitchen countertop must be gfci protected and you must have 2 small appliance branch circuits serving the kitchen countertops not just one 20 amp branch circuit.
    It is fine to extend one or both of the small appliance branch circuits to the dining room, however it sounds like a 2nd 20 amp small appliance circuit was not available in the kitchen and therefore would be in violation of the NEC. So IMO the inspector was saying your friend needs to add a 2nd small appliance branch circuit to the kitchen countertops..

    Roger nailed it, the code inspector did not explain it well enough and caused the confusion. Was this a kitchen remodel inspection?

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •