Thread: Distance from pool

Is the distance 5' that the panel has to be away from the waters edge?

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I don't know, but this may apply:

SECTION E4103

EQUIPMENT LOCATION AND CLEARANCES

E4103.2 Switching devices.

Switching devices shall be
located not less than 5 feet (1.5 m) horizontally from the inside
walls of pools, spas and hot tubs except where separated from
the pool, spa or hot tub by a solid fence, wall, or other permanent
barrier. Switching devices located in a room or area containing
a hydromassage bathtub shall be located in accordance

with the general requirements of this code.

I figured 5" from memory, but wanted to DBL check... So it looks 1/4" short.
thanks

Originally Posted by Marc M

I figured 5" from memory, but wanted to DBL check... So it looks 1/4" short.
thanks

The water's edge is the pool wall, not the coping edge ... thus that is 1/4" plus the overhang of the coping short (probably about 2-1/2" to 3" short).

And all those metallic items within 5 feet of the pool need to be bonded to the pool bonding system. This includes the hose bibb, the gas meter, the service equipment, the window frames, the drip edge on the roof (if less than 12 high, and it looks less than 12' high), the junction boxes/conduit/etc. if metallic ... somebody goofed big time on that installation.

!.5 Meters is only 4.92 feet. You'd be wise to put on your swimming trunks before you called that out at my house.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

!.5 Meters is only 4.92 feet. You'd be wise to put on your swimming trunks before you called that out at my house.

You noticed, I presume, that it stated "5 feet" ... then put the rounded off meters in parentheses ...

Thought I should add this form the NEC: (bold and underlining are mine)
- 90.9 Units of Measurement.
- - (A) Measurement System of Preference. For the purpose of this Code, metric units of measurement are in accordance with the modernized metric system known as the International System of Units (SI).
- - (B) Dual System of Units. SI units shall appear first, and inch-pound units shall immediately follow in parentheses. Conversion from inch-pound units to SI units shall be based on hard conversion except as provided in 90.9(C).
- - (C) Permitted Uses of Soft Conversion. The cases given in 90.9(C)(1) through (C)(4) shall not be required to use hard conversion and shall be permitted to use soft conversion.
- - - (1) Trade Sizes. Where the actual measured size of a product is not the same as the nominal size, trade size designators shall be used rather than dimensions. Trade practices shall be followed in all cases.
- - - (2) Extracted Material. Where material is extracted from another standard, the context of the original material shall not be compromised or violated. Any editing of the extracted text shall be confined to making the style consistent with that of the NEC.
- - - (3) Industry Practice. Where industry practice is to express units in inch-pound units, the inclusion of SI units shall not be required.
- - - (4) Safety. Where a negative impact on safety would result, soft conversion shall be used.
- - (D) Compliance. Conversion from inch-pound units to SI units shall be permitted to be an approximate conversion. Compliance with the numbers shown in either the SI system or the inch-pound system shall constitute compliance with this Code.
- - - FPN No. 1: Hard conversion is considered a change in dimensions or properties of an item into new sizes that might or might not be interchangeable with the sizes used in the original measurement. Soft conversion is considered a direct mathematical conversion and involves a change in the description of an existing measurement but not in the actual dimension.
- - - FPN No. 2: SI conversions are based on IEEE/ASTM SI 10-1997,Standard for the Use of the International System of Units (SI):The Modern Metric System.

"(B) Dual System of Units. SI units shall appear first, and inch-pound units shall immediately follow in parentheses."

Looks like the AHJ who approved that installation was using his metric tape.

Like I said, anyone who told me I had to move that panel 3/4" into the wall had better be wearing his trunks.

Oh wait...you didn't see the diving board another 2 feet over...

Originally Posted by John Kogel

"(B) Dual System of Units. SI units shall appear first, and inch-pound units shall immediately follow in parentheses."

Looks like the AHJ who approved that installation was using his metric tape.

Like I said, anyone who told me I had to move that panel 3/4" into the wall had better be wearing his trunks.

Can you imagine that conversation with the seller/agent?
Thanks Jerry for the info BTW...

Panel

This is no ordinary switchboard, panelboard, etc.

This is combination meter enclosure/service equipment., which appears to be entirely flush mounted.

Which begs the question, where are the service conductors????
Both OP set and subsequent photo suggests unfused unprotected/pre-meter conductors are within building wall - from above or from below, or underneath a structure.

Ring, meter face, socket encloses unfused, unprotected conductors.

I see no indication of conduit exterior for a service lateral, nor do I see above meter combination equipment to indicate overhead.

Screen in window suggests operable window opening proximity.

O/H 10' Overhead clearances - overhead conductors shall not be located within 10 feet horizotally of a pool or pool attachments (old NEC 680-8).

Lateral?

Underground clearances - never locate underground conductors under or horizontally within 5 feet (old ref NEC 680-10) of the inside wall of a pool or spa. There would be a necessary conduit offset away from foundation line
conduit enclosed - nothing w/in 5' of pool wall.

Service N-G bonding & GEC in relationship to equipotential grid.

Utility meters (gas & electric) within what should be a locked (attractive nuisiance) pool enclosure.

Diving board obviously suggests in excess of 12" water depth inground pool.

Inside wall of pool is under deck lip overhang.

Drainage/systems.

Face of enclosure not side wall of house.

Enclosure panel swing usually requires greater POCO clearance working space, pg&e. appears invaded by conduit & box and may be by gas pipe considering restriction on W/S by operable window. IIRC swing combo front POCO side increases minimum W/S requirements to 48" from swinging door/panel Calli old PG&E, might be remembering incorrectly; IIRC application local rule was min 36" out from equipotential grid for pool deck so wouldn't that be min 8' from UNPROTECTED space (no wall separating enclosure (enclosed panelboard or combination meter enclosure) that is service equipment not just a pool panel or remote panelboard from inground pool outdoors, ungrounded, unfused service conductors, pre-bonded netural?

Conduit offset building surface to receptacle box protruding from building surface - encroaches clearance for both pool and appears to encroach working space to meter enclosure - limited by operable window in foreground.

Appears to be a pit behind receptacle or outlet box for heater? (gas service/main entrance pipe) just foreground of gas meter Is that correct?

What is the distance gas-meter, gas service, gas main - to pool and to Combination Meter enclosure - as well as enclosure and operable side of window?

Watson listed some things before I worked my way there ... distracted by John trying to apply the "up there" metric to the "down here" clearly stated feet, John continued even after I posted the code which stated the feet applies and that the metric is a "soft" conversion ...

Be that as it may ...

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

This is combination meter enclosure/service equipment., which appears to be entirely flush mounted.

And is that enclosure even allowed to be flush mounted? It appears to be metallic and therefore should be surface mounted with a 1/4" air space between the enclosure and the exterior wall surface.

Which begs the question, where are the service conductors????

Currently, they appear to be "in the wall", i.e., *NOT* "outside the structure".

If that enclosure was surfaced mounted as it should have been, the service lateral and riser would be visible on the wall surface. Of course, though, that would make them even closer to the water's edge and well within the not-allowed-to-be-within-5-feet distance.

Screen in window suggests operable window opening proximity.

Which, if the window is metal, needs to be bonded as it also appears to be within 5 feet - as I mentioned above.

Underground clearances - never locate underground conductors under or horizontally within 5 feet (old ref NEC 680-10) of the inside wall of a pool or spa. There would be a necessary conduit offset away from foundation line conduit enclosed - nothing w/in 5' of pool wall.

See information above regarding the enclosure not being surfaced mounted and the riser being within the wall.

Utility meters (gas & electric) within what should be a locked (attractive nuisiance) pool enclosure.

Not following Watson there, the other things, yes.

Inside wall of pool is under deck lip overhang.

As I previously pointed out.

"not following watson..."

I'll expand for you Peck. The utility meters are within the required pool enclosure. The utility requires access from the right of way. The pool enclosure should be secured against unauthorized access. Pools are considered an attractive nusiance in California - they require safety enclosures and securement from unauthorized children entering from the public right of way without permission - hence barrier method - not an unlocked gate - how does the POCO make entrance but the attractively irresistably drawn children of the neighborhood, NOT, to the uncovered, pool?

The pool is an attractive nusiance. It (the pool) is to be enclosed within a pool enclosure. The sidewall of the building serves as part of that enclosure. The enclosure should be fenced and if a gate opening should be locked so as to prevent unauthorized entry - attractive nusiance draws "childrens' to enter without permission). The POCO requires access to its meter - the gas company (often same in Cali) requires access to its meter to service, read (even if equiped with remote signaling), etc.

The POCO gas meter and utility meter are then necessarily WITHIN the pool enclosure - that's where I was heading there - and poco rules regarding access to their meters. PG&E, SDG&E, etc.

Now, back to the pictures -

The breaches in the pool deck - cut-outs, etc. underneath the gas meter and the area between the gas meter and the electric meter/combo enclosure would indicate breaches, that is less than 5' out for the electropotential GRID required for the "conductive" cementious pool deck

That's an issue - insufficient grid with, esp. for the three feet out zone from the building. path.

The "newer" section of the deck forground suggest modifications - as does the "inset" or entirely flush mounted combination meter enclosure.

This suggests to ME some sort of :

- Removal of a prior barrier wall, block or otherwise building wall extension/fence or fence "ell" shaped from building that may have been closer to the pool wall and at some point provided a barrier between the more distant pool deck beyond the gas and electric meter enclosures and the foreground approach up to and through to the building wall;

- Removal of a fence & gate midpoint along the building wall;

- and/or an extension/enlargement of the pool deck area between the pool and the structure, and/or an extension of the now "ell" shaped pool", and presence of diving board parallel to home and proximity of window to same) the pool deck area;

- AND/OR an "addition" or modification to the building structure wall, such as a filling in of a former alcove, bump out connection between home and garage, remuddle of area now containing operable window, and/or a replacement of operable window now opening previously fixed side.

there are no intervening walls or "protection" between the service equipment and the pool water.

The combination equipment has swinging door panels (up) and a hazard present (pool) and working space is limited widthwise by the presence of an operable window opening to the right of the equipment (proximity limiations questioned IIRC 36" PG&E). and the projections of J/B and conduit in the foreground of the service enclosure as well as the gas pipe, gas meter, and two "pits" to the left of the combination equipment. Therefore as I recall the working clearance POCO requirements for such equpment it is ENhanced to 48" depth not 36" depth, and must be present min 30" out from one side or the other edge of the outward and upward swinging door panel pogo side (after meter socket ring is removed, and both POCO seals - ring and panel) panel door swings upward, I believe - to the left of the customer side).

Location proximity to corrosive conditions/pool water treatment chemicals/evaporation, etc.

A permit search, etc. would be prudent - it appears this property has undergone at least one cycle of expansions/modifications to both the pool and deck structure as well as the building.

Cannot tell with any certainty that the service is lateral or a drop, might be either suggested by photos, gable overhang side of building of unknown specific location or vintage in california, although some areas and vintage development are much more likely to be lateral.

Where are the electrode(s), the GEC.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Currently, they appear to be "in the wall", i.e., *NOT* "outside the structure".

We cannot see the wall above the enclosure in either photograph, the first is cut off and we do not see the top edge of the enclosure, the other our view is obscured by the open customer side of the combination meter enclosure - we do not know if there is an alcove type arrangement on at least the top half of the enclosure providing a partial or semi flush installation.

If that enclosure was surfaced mounted as it should have been,

We do not know if it is in fact a service lateral or if overhead drop via the gable end roof, or if there is a partial alcove above.

Not all combination equipment is required to be SURFACE mounted. It may be a semi-flush installation, etc.; There is no absolute rule long standing, it depends first on where the drop originates and its path, next on the equipment listing, where the conductors enter, and of course POCO requirements in addition to local rules.

the service lateral and riser would be visible on the wall surface. Of course, though, that would make them even closer to the water's edge and well within the not-allowed-to-be-within-5-feet distance.

perhaps, perhaps not. Line side, service point, is not necessarily known - have not kept up with the status of deregulation in California. Lateral may or may not be OWNED by the utility; for example fully encased in pvc by poco, limited space provisions NEC 680.8, 680.10 aside, if owned by the utility - that would be governed by NESC performance + california rules +utility rules; we know not its path of travel, further encased under concrete cover, under building - we have no idea where it is from these pictures. We know it should not be anywhere within 5' of the inside pool wall nor under the pool... We know NOT the vintage of the installationS, nor the actual locality adoptions of additional restrictions, pool codes, seismic region, etc.



Which, if the window is metal, needs to be bonded as it also appears to be within 5 feet - as I mentioned above.



See information above regarding the enclosure not being surfaced mounted and the riser being within the wall.

Not following Watson there,

See prior post above, hope explained better my meaning.

As I previously pointed out.

Where? I was saying the inside wall was under the overhanging formed, rounded, deck lip - don't see where you made that observation anywhere.

"Rick what code did you pull the following from ?"

Ken
From the 2006 IRC, CHAPTER 41, SWIMMING POOLS

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

"not following watson..."

I'll expand for you Peck. The utility meters are within the required pool enclosure. The utility requires access from the right of way. The pool enclosure should be secured against unauthorized access.

Thank you Watson, that is where I thought you were going, and pools ARE NOT required to be "be secured against unauthorized access".

Pools are required to have CHILD resistant barriers around them, NOT "secured against unauthorized access", which are two different things.

Pools are considered an attractive nusiance in California - they require safety enclosures and securement from unauthorized children entering ...

Correct, a CHILD resistant barrier, not one which is locked to the power company meter reader, not one which is locked to prevent unwanted entry, just one which is designed and intended to resist CHILDREN from entering from outside the pool enclosure are.

from the public right of way without permission - hence barrier method - not an unlocked gate - how does the POCO make entrance but the attractively irresistably drawn children of the neighborhood, NOT, to the uncovered, pool?

Please show me where the pool is required to be in a LOCKED enclosure.

yada, yada, yada for and with the rest of the post.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

We cannot see the wall above the enclosure in either photograph, the first is cut off and we do not see the top edge of the enclosure, the other our view is obscured by the open customer side of the combination meter enclosure - we do not know if there is an alcove type arrangement on at least the top half of the enclosure providing a partial or semi flush installation.

The wall above the enclosure is shown in the last photo you mentioned, and in none of the photos does it show the conductors or raceway outside the wall of the structure.

I will wait for MARC to address that aspect, not YOU.

Where? I was saying the inside wall was under the overhanging formed, rounded, deck lip - don't see where you made that observation anywhere.

Maybe you should read the posts better then.

Go back up and re-read the replies, you will see that was stated before your first reply ...

Originally Posted by Marc M

Is the distance 5' that the panel has to be away from the waters edge?

I would remove the manual switch and install a pneumatic switch in it's place with a blank cover on the box. Then I would install another box with a pneumatic pushbutton in the new box. A plastic hose would connect the pushbutton to the pneumatic switch. This should fix the problem.

Distance from the pool aside, the panel and meter installation shown here looks to be a pretty standard in this (CA) part of the country. I've seen this type of install done with both overhead and underground service supply. Questions about the service wires in a wall have typically been answered with "this is how we do it". I've not been inclined to find out if there are local rules or exceptions to the NEC because I don't deal with this type of installation - but, it is widespread and evidently accepted as standard practice by quite a number of AHJs as new structures are built this way and replacements for existing are installed the same way. I'd bet pictures of any home for miles around would show a similar installation.

I'm not advocating here, just presenting info.

As to the pool, has anyone checked to see if any exceptions were granted for a permitted install? I somehow suspect that a standard pool size coming up a few inches short of fitting in the available space probably flies in many cases. I suspect checking on permits might also answer grid and bonding questions.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The water's edge is the pool wall, not the coping edge ... thus that is 1/4" plus the overhang of the coping short (probably about 2-1/2" to 3" short).

And all those metallic items within 5 feet of the pool need to be bonded to the pool bonding system. This includes the hose bib, the gas meter, the service equipment, the window frames, the drip edge on the roof (if less than 12 high, and it looks less than 12' high), the junction boxes/conduit/etc. if metallic ... somebody goofed big time on that installation.

Jerry,

Does the bonding need to be visible (cables running along the wall) or is the requirement met by bonding within the device, bonding cables run hidden in conduit, for example, but all connections visible? I have seen some sloppy bonding done to gas meters, thus prompting the question.

Rich

Has anyone mentioned tempered glazing?

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

Does the bonding need to be visible (cables running along the wall) or is the requirement met by bonding within the device, bonding cables run hidden in conduit, for example, but all connections visible? I have seen some sloppy bonding done to gas meters, thus prompting the question.

Rich,

With forethought ... (yeah, right - but okay, we'll go with that ) ... the bonding wire could be hidden and just the bonding connection visible on the windows, etc.

Originally Posted by David Bertrams

Has anyone mentioned tempered glazing?

The glazing may be 60 inches back (with "may" being the key here), and if so, the glazing would not be required to be safety glass - however, if the glazing is within 60 inches of the pool, yes, it would need to be safety glass.

The window frame typically extends out beyond the glazing and thus if the window frame is metal then it would need to be bonded if the metal is within 5 feet.

You will notice that I used "5 feet" and "60 inches" (which are technically the same) are used in the different codes.

Jerry do you have that section (5' rule) of the 08' NEC?

Originally Posted by Marc M

Jerry do you have that section (5' rule) of the 08' NEC?

(underlining and bold are mine)
- 680.26 Equipotential Bonding.
- - (B) Bonded Parts.
- - - (7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.
- - - - Exception No. 1: Those separated from the pool by a permanent barrier shall not be required to be bonded.
- - - - Exception No. 2: Those greater than 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally of the inside walls of the pool shall not be required to be bonded.
- - - - Exception No. 3: Those greater than 3.7 m (12 ft) measured vertically above the maximum water level of the pool, or as measured vertically above any observation stands, towers, or platforms, or any diving structures, shall not be required to be bonded.


While that section states "Metal wiring methods and Equipment.", the application from previous code editions of the similar section was read as including all metal part, such as from this 1996 NEC wording:
- 680-22. Bonding.
- - (FPN): It is not the intent of this section to require that the No. 8 or larger solid copper bonding conductor be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode, but only that it be employed to eliminate voltage gradients in the pool area as prescribed.
- - (a) Bonded Parts. The following parts shall be bonded together:
- - - (1) All metallic parts of the pool structure, including the reinforcing metal of the pool shell, coping stones, and deck.
- - - (2) All forming shells and mounting brackets of a no-niche fixture.
- - - (3) All metal fittings within or attached to the pool structure.
- - - (4) Metal parts of electric equipment associated with the pool water circulating system, including pump motors.
- - - (5) Metal parts of equipment associated with pool covers, including electric motors.
- - - (6) Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts that are within 5 ft (1.52 m) horizontally of the inside walls of the pool, and within 12 ft (3.66 m) above the maximum water level of the pool, or any observation stands, towers, or platforms, or from any diving structures, and that are not separated from the pool by a permanent barrier.
- - - - Exception No. 1: The usual steel tie wires shall be considered suitable for bonding the reinforcing steel together, and welding or special clamping shall not be required. These tie wires shall be made tight.
- - - - Exception No. 2: Isolated parts that are not over 4 in. (102 mm) in any dimension and do not penetrate into the pool structure more than 1 in. (25.4 mm) shall not require bonding.
- - - - Exception No. 3: Structural reinforcing steel or the walls of bolted or welded metal pool structures shall be permitted as a common bonding grid for nonelectrical parts where connections can be made in accordance with Section 250-113.
- - - - Exception No. 4: Metal parts of listed equipment incorporating an approved system of double insulation and providing a means for grounding internal nonaccessible, noncurrent carrying metal parts shall not be bonded.

This (6) was a full sentence without a separate heading "(6) Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts that are within" and was read as such. The newer wording separates the sentence into a heading and then the sentence.

The newer sentence "(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded" still includes the same "and all fixed metal parts" even though the sentence now has a heading which is different, the same meaning ("all fixed metal parts") has been brought forward in each successive edition by all inspectors I know.

There will be some who say that the code no longer addresses metal items other than those included as part of the wiring methods and electrical equipment.

For those who say the newer heading separates the other parts out and just covers "Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment", I recommend they read the Handbook as the Handbook states: (underlining and bold are mine)
- The metal parts required to be bonded per 680.26(B) include all metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the water-circulating system of the pool, all metal part of the pool structure, and all fixed metal parts, which include conduit and piping, metal door frames, and metal window frames, within 5 ft of the inside walls of the pool and not separated by a permanent barrier. (The Handbook commentary continues on with additional items, and specifically includes "metal fences", "metal awning", not specifically mentioned but fall into the "all fixed metal parts" category are "gutters", "drip edge", "screen enclosures", and the like which are within that 5 feet horizontally and 12 vertically 'box'.)

I know the above was rather long, but I also am sure that some would try to confuse what was covered if I did not address it all AND INCLUDE what the Handbook says about it.

wow..thanks
i'm going to have to get the handbook.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

!.5 Meters is only 4.92 feet. You'd be wise to put on your swimming trunks before you called that out at my house.

I agree

Originally Posted by John Kogel

!.5 Meters is only 4.92 feet. You'd be wise to put on your swimming trunks before you called that out at my house.

I can see that point but we cant ever know if an issue is ever going to well, become an issue until your in court. I'd just as soon error on the side of caution and deal with the fallout from calling it out. Sort of like wide balisters; "it was to code, or built that way so its fine". Yea I agree.. until a child gets hurt then it's not (fine).

Originally Posted by Marc M

I can see that point but we cant ever know if an issue is ever going to well, become an issue until your in court. I'd just as soon error on the side of caution and deal with the fallout from calling it out. Sort of like wide balisters; "it was to code, or built that way so its fine". Yea I agree.. until a child gets hurt then it's not (fine).

I guess your right, nothing is ever an issue until something bad happens...

Originally Posted by Door Guy

I guess your right, nothing is ever an issue until something bad happens...

Dont get me wrong, I'm with you. But I find myself always looking at the house from a " how can I not get sued" perspective.
Or better yet...how many times have you elected to not call something out just to have a client sell the house, get it inspected and call you to ask how come you didnt call that out? Not that its happend to me...

Originally Posted by Marc M

Dont get me wrong, I'm with you. But I find myself always looking at the house from a " how can I not get sued" perspective.
Or better yet...how many times have you elected to not call something out just to have a client sell the house, get it inspected and call you to ask how come you didnt call that out? Not that its happend to me...

Yep, seems like when you don't call something out everyone else seems to notice it! Even it's small... good point.

Good discussion. From what I was told wiring not associated with the pool had to be 10' away from the inside pool wall. This is above and below ground. This includes things like plugs. Wiring associated with the pool is 5'. If it's an ovehead service it needs to be 22 1/2' above the pool.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

!.5 Meters is only 4.92 feet. You'd be wise to put on your swimming trunks before you called that out at my house.

I think the bigger issue to consider here is that if I called that out as 5 feet at John's house because that is what the NEC said ... that Canada somehow got annexed into the US!

Originally Posted by Robert Ernst

Good discussion. From what I was told wiring not associated with the pool had to be 10' away from the inside pool wall. This is above and below ground. This includes things like plugs. Wiring associated with the pool is 5'.

NO UNDERGROUND WIRING is allowed within 5 feet horizontally of the inside wall of the pool "unless this wiring is necessary to supply pool equipment permitted by this article.", but, there is an exception to that: )underlining and bold are mine)
- "Where space limitations prevent wiring from being routed a distance 1.5 m (5 ft) or more from the pool, such wiring shall be permitted where installed in complete raceway systems of rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, or a nonmetallic raceway system"

Note that "prevent" is not the same as "difficult to do", "prevent" means it is "impossible" to do within the space limitations. It takes A LOT to "prevent" the wiring from being routed 5 feet from the pool.

Robert, you need to go back and review what you are referring to and make the necessary corrections to the other information in your post as your post contains other errors too.