Thread: Stupidity

Pics from the service panel at yesterday's inspection. Pointed sheet metal screws securing the deadfront cover of the panel and how close they came to creating a very bad situation. I actually got a little chill after removing the deadfront cover and seeing the gouge in the service cable.

A couple of years ago I drove a screw like than into the SEC - it surely livened up the inspection and got everyone's attention. I also able to confirmed that the main breaker worked.

Arc welding using only a screwdriver.

Lucky for whoever did this that it was the neutral that the screw penetrated!

So, when you were finished, did you put the same screws back in?

Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky

So, when you were finished, did you put the same screws back in?

I was wondering the same thing!

Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski

Pics from the service panel at yesterday's inspection. Pointed sheet metal screws securing the deadfront cover of the panel and how close they came to creating a very bad situation. I actually got a little chill after removing the deadfront cover and seeing the gouge in the service cable.

Be glad it was the neutral (or should have been). That cable may not be acceptable for indoor use BTW, depends on the type of insulation.

Can't tell if that is a cable, but looks like XHH* insulation.

Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky

So, when you were finished, did you put the same screws back in?

I did but only at the upper and lower corner holes. I left them out of the middle holes because that's where the cables were. I don't carry spare screws to replace the wrong ones and I had to get the cover back on.

Good reason to carry a few different types of spare screws someplace in the inspection vehicle.

Though, if I can tell they're pointed screws I sometimes don't even bother taking the cover off, just calling the pointed screws and recommending an electrician finish it.

A wise man learns from his experience.
A truly wise man learns from other peoples experience.

Just not sure I want to do arc welding with a screw driver.

-

A possible point to ponder here is that the cover usually has paint on all of it, including where it contacts the box. In many cases this makes the paint the screw removes (if any) when installed the only way the cover is bonded to the box. The type of box construction shown allows the requirement for engagement of 2 full threads of the bonding screw to be met if a fine thread (32 TPI) is used. Sheet metal screws don't meet the requirement.

I break out the Dremel with a small wire brush and clean off the area under the head of one or two of the screws so there is a good bond.

You can put a continuity tester on an exposed piece of bare metal on covers (breaker knockout hole edge) and on the panel box and find no continuity in many cases.

A couple years ago I tested a panel cover before removing it and there was no flow at all. I stuck the trusty screwdriver ( I usually use a small twelve volt screw driver) on the screw and started unscrewing the first screw when suddenly before I even felt the screw driver leave my hand I heard a large POW and the screw drive stuck in the wall behind me.

I guess the screw just needed another twist or 2 to cut thru the insulation. The client just walked away from the spot the screwdriver stuck in the drywall behind me. The damn driver just blew out of my hand with a blinding flash and a bang. So much for test the panel cover first ..... I usually don't.

yikes and double yikes....

I have replaced pointed screws in the past when I find them (after ensuring that all wires would be out of the way.

Of course, leaving the cabinet cover off is too dangerous as well and I don't (should, maybe) carry extra cabinet screws.

Eric (#2) Just curious on how the main breaker would trip when the short was on the SEC which is on the line side of the main breaker. I would think either the screw would be blown to bits thus breaking the short, or the transformer fuse would blow.

I'd be concerned about what has been cut unsecured and abandoned.
.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

Arc welding using only a screwdriver.

One time I saw a 12" wrench reduced to 6".... at the same time brown stuff in the users pants......

The transformer fuse will not blow no matter how well you might ground the line conductor.

The best one I have done.... In an attempt to satisfy a customers request that I not leave them without power too long, I decided to remove/prepare all that I could before cutting power.
When punching out the mortar around the old service cable, POW!
My large steel punch blew out of my hand like a missile. I don't know what happened to the first inch or so, probably vaporized.

I seems that the original installer (maybe the brick layers) thought they would hide the ugly cable behind the brick for a foot, before bringing it outside.
Needless to say, I stopped bowing to this common request.

When taking cover screws out, throwing the switch on a one-arm-bandit, (either on or off), working on transformers or any of the like,
do not stand if front of the equipment. Stand to the side or at least position your head to one side.

I have blown a transformer fuse before....not on the customer side of the meter though.

Wow, the comments have me laughing. It is a serious problem, encountered too often. The most irritating occurrence was discovering pointed screws holding the panel covers on for both residences in a duplex. My client asked for and paid for a review to make sure that all requested corrections were completed. When it was discovered that the pointed screws were not replaced, I asked the seller why. His "electrician" said it was alright and they didn't have to be replaced. Hmmm . . . I wonder if pop-rivets would solve the problem.

Originally Posted by Randy Aldering

. . . I wonder if pop-rivets would solve the problem.

Just be careful drilling the holes for the rivets.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

A couple years ago I tested a panel cover before removing it and there was no flow at all. I stuck the trust screw driver ( I usually use a small twelve volt screw driver) on the screw and started unscrewing the first screw when suddenly before I even felt the screw driver leave my hand I heard a large POW and the screw drive stuck in the wall behind me.

I guess the screw just needed another twist or 2 to cut thru the insulation. The client just walked away from the spot the screw driver stuck in the drywall behind me. The damn driver just blew out of my hand with a blinding flash and a bang. So much for test the panel cover first ..... I usually don't.

Ted that same experience happened with my associate except for the flying screw driver. He was also a master electrician and about soiled himself.

Originally Posted by Steven Saville

Eric (#2) Just curious on how the main breaker would trip when the short was on the SEC which is on the line side of the main breaker. I would think either the screw would be blown to bits thus breaking the short, or the transformer fuse would blow.

Steven - I don't have an answer for you - it's a good question.

Originally Posted by Eric Barker

Steven - I don't have an answer for you - it's a good question.

It could be the inrush current! If the breaker has a low KAIC rating like 10 KAIC and you dead short the unfused line coming into the breaker it may trip. This is also something that can happen if the KAIC rating of a given breaker is less than the rating of the transformer on its line side. When the transformer is first energized or shorted it may or may not trip the breaker, but the potential is there! I have seen this happen and had to deal with it in the past.

Unfortunately we run into "STUPIDITY" on a daily bases. I had an old and very experienced inspector some 15 years ago tell me to always check the panel box cover with the back of your hand before deciding to remove it. If it's warm don't touch it call for a qualified electrician. If it's hot you hand muscles will contract pulling away from the cover. Additionally always use a fully insulated screw driver.

Originally Posted by Thomas McKay

Unfortunately we run into "STUPIDITY" on a daily bases. I had an old and very experienced inspector some 15 years ago tell me to always check the panel box cover with the back of your hand before deciding to remove it. If it's warm don't touch it call for a qualified electrician. If it's hot you hand muscles will contract pulling away from the cover. Additionally always use a fully insulated screw driver.

When you say; if it's warm don't touch it, you mean warm as in temperature? I can understand hot as in electrically charged but would it ever be warm (temperature)?

Yes warm as in "temperature" means it could be overloaded.

Originally Posted by Bert de Haan

Just be careful drilling the holes for the rivets.

Yes, absolutely. I was thinking about a video featuring one of the electricians that like to say "those are OK" drilling out the pop-rivets to get the panel open. Once that drill bit hits a hot conductor . . . well, just imagine that on You Tube.