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  1. #1
    Mark S. Connely's Avatar
    Mark S. Connely Guest

    Exclamation GFCI realtor fun and games

    The following is the Email a realtor sent my customer
    Gotta love the quote I highly reccomend you go to the link and see what makes this guy such a professionel ps the information she was complaining about was GFCI's in the kitchen

    "I researched the 3 areas the inspector was educating us on: GFCI's,
    smoke detectors, and carbon monoxide detectors, and what I found is as
    follows:

    1. GFCI: (copied and pasted from
    http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/home-electronics/gfci-codes-homes-392347.html



    "First of all GFCI protection is only required when the code calls for
    it at the time of the original home construction permit. If the home
    was built many years ago GFCI protection may not be required at all. A
    home needs only meet the code that was in place at the time of its
    original construction OR when a update or remodel has been made to a
    specific area.

    Now with that being said therre is nothing wrong with GFCI protection
    and I can understand that some non-licensed state home inspector might
    recommend them to be installed for safety purposes but if the above
    rule is followed they cannot demand they be installed if the code did
    not require it durning the initial construction or remodel.

    BTW the NEC has for sometime requires two separate kitchen circuits so
    he might be looking at it from that perspective. The codes are always
    evolving and the NEC changes every three years so this leads to some
    confusion especially
    among home inspectors who just a short time ago might have been a
    automobile mechanic and all they know about construction and electric
    is what they read out of a book or heard from one of there other home
    inspection buddys. I have been called into court on a few occassions
    to clairfy exactly what the rules are regarding the codes and exactly
    when the codes apply. My code compliance manuals go back to 1934 so
    the old codes can be recited in court to settle the arguement.

    Home inspectors have caused millions of dollars to be spent each year
    by home owners to upgrade there homes for the next buyer when in all
    actuality they did not need to do the repairs to start with. Most
    cases are are judged for the original home owner and the home
    inspector is forced to pay for all sales delays and cost associated
    with there shenanigan.

    Home inspectors have there place but they need to stay in there place
    and not wonder about giving false
    information."

    I dont know about you but i think going on this link and having 20 or 30 of us correcting this stupid post would help us as a group

    Similar Threads:
    Inspection Referral SOC

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    1,078

    Default Re: GFCI realtor fun and games

    The link references a topic that was last updated Aug 2009. Not particularly current or active. The techincal information presented does answer the question. The comments regarding bad home inspectors are not the far off.

    Remind your client that a home inspectors task is to cite SAFETY and Habitability issues. Lack of GFCI is generally considered a safety issue regardless of the age of the home. Home inspectors can not Require any repairs or upgrades. They simply report the condition of the home. Recommending installation of GFCIs in kitchens, baths, exteriors, garages, and crawlspaces is well within the role of a home inspector.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: GFCI realtor fun and games

    Obviously its a very anti-HI biased answer. Nonetheless the overall answer isn't bad. The real problem lies with the last two paragraphs. Those two paragraphs really take legitimacy away from the responder as a 3rd party.
    The response also falls short and sounds a bit fishy in regards to court testimony, homeowners being compelled to spend tons of money and HI's mandating things.
    Not sure if he understands that adults can make their own decisions within a deal or that they can hire an attorney to advise them. His basic idea that his testimony has won money for a Seller who was compelled to fix something that they didn't have to doesn't sound legit.
    I don't compel or mandate anything. I write what I see. What people do with that info is entirely up to them.
    Where in IL are you Mike?

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: GFCI realtor fun and games

    The poster in the link might want to revise their thinking somewhat. The NEC requires receptacle replacements in areas that require GFI protection to have it added when the devices are replaced. This will also apply to AFCIs and tamper-resistant devices.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  5. #5
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: GFCI realtor fun and games

    I have to agree that at times HI's confuse repairs with upgrades. The problem is that once it is in a report and the buyer wants it done... and will not buy the house if the seller does not do it... the HI is causing the seller to spend money.


  6. #6
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: GFCI realtor fun and games

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The poster in the link might want to revise their thinking somewhat. The NEC requires receptacle replacements in areas that require GFI protection to have it added when the devices are replaced. This will also apply to AFCIs and tamper-resistant devices.

    That is close to my wording. It is strongly advisable to mention upgrades in these kinds of cases and it is recommended. If the buyer wants to ask the seller for an upgrade then so be it. That is not my business. It is my business to look out for the concerns in the home they are buying. I mention that all homes should have gutters to prevent washout next to the home, splashback to the home and keep pockets from forming next to the home for good foundation health. Some clients ask for them. Some clients don't. All the seller can say is yes or no b8ut my buyers also know gutters are not even put on homes by builders unless there is an extra charge in most case.

    I also tell everyone of my clients that just because I find concerns in the home or mention helpful or safety upgrades it does not mean the seller or even them have to do any repairs if the choose not to. There are ways of informing a client and then, there are ways of informing a client.

    As far as Mr HVAC pro in the link. Maybe, just maybe he should leave the inspecting and reporting to the home inspector. As far as an inspector needs to be kept in his place? What place might that be? Getting things right for sure but also the Realtor doing a study on home inspection???? acting and advising as a home inspector???? most licensed states that is not allowed in the slightest. You cannot advise as a home inspector unless you are one. I think Washington state is one of those states as well.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: GFCI realtor fun and games

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    the buyer wants it done... and will not buy the house if the seller does not do it... the HI is causing the seller to spend money.
    The HI is not causing the seller to spend money ... that kind of thinking comes from a real estate agent's friend ... THE CLIENT is causing the seller to spend money (or the client is going to spend their own money - depending on how much the client wants/does not want to buy the house, and THAT is a result of a failure on the sellers' part and/or the agents' part).

    ALL the HI did was point out what was not safe ... and the HI is correct.

    If the seller has the house priced right, and the agent had done THEIR job of "selling" the house, then the buyer will gladly pay for the GFCI themselves.

    If the client thinks the house is overpriced, or maybe/maybe not still wants the house (seller's and/or agent's failure again), the the client wants to make the house "worth it".

    Do you blame the buyer (the client) from trying to make the house "worth it" if they decide they are over paying?

    If you do ... I have some high and dry land in the Everglades to sell you ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: GFCI realtor fun and games

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The HI is not causing the seller to spend money ... that kind of thinking comes from a real estate agent's friend ... THE CLIENT is causing the seller to spend money (or the client is going to spend their own money - depending on how much the client wants/does not want to buy the house, and THAT is a result of a failure on the sellers' part and/or the agents' part).

    ALL the HI did was point out what was not safe ... and the HI is correct.

    If the seller has the house priced right, and the agent had done THEIR job of "selling" the house, then the buyer will gladly pay for the GFCI themselves.

    If the client thinks the house is overpriced, or maybe/maybe not still wants the house (seller's and/or agent's failure again), the the client wants to make the house "worth it".

    Do you blame the buyer (the client) from trying to make the house "worth it" if they decide they are over paying?

    If you do ... I have some high and dry land in the Everglades to sell you ...
    I heard the water level is going down but then again they now have those dog and child swallowing snakes.


  9. #9
    Mark S. Connely's Avatar
    Mark S. Connely Guest

    Default Re: GFCI realtor fun and games

    the following is from the 2009 IPMC and it does require GFCI in all locations this means it is a code requirement. Please read the following

    SECTION 601
    GENERAL
    601.1 Scope.
    The provisions of this chapter shall govern the
    minimum mechanical and electrical facilities and equipment to
    be provided.

    Minimum performance guidelines for mechanical and
    electrical facilities and equipment are established in
    this chapter. Installations that do not conform to these
    minimum criteria are unacceptable.

    601.2 Responsibility.
    The owner of the structure shall provide
    and maintain mechanical and electrical facilities and equipment
    in compliance with these requirements. A person shall
    not occupy as
    owner-occupant or permit another person to
    occupy any
    premises which does not comply with the requirements
    of this chapter.

    It is the responsibility of the owner of the structure to
    provide and maintain the required electrical and mechanical
    facilities. An owner must not occupy or allow
    any other person to occupy a structure that is not in
    compliance with this chapter; thus, the requirements of
    this chapter are the minimum necessary to make a

    structure occupiable.



    and

    604.3 Electrical system hazards. Where it is found that the
    electrical system in a structure constitutes a hazard to the occupants
    or the structure by reason of inadequate service,
    improper fusing, insufficient receptacle and lighting outlets,
    improper wiring or installation, deterioration or damage, or for
    similar reasons, the code official shall require the defects to be
    corrected to eliminate the hazard.
    Any electrical system deficiency or condition that is
    deemed hazardous to the occupants or to the structure
    must be abated to eliminate the hazard. Electrical
    system hazards include, but are not limited to, the
    following:
     Inadequate (undersized) service;
     Improper fusing and overcurrent protection;
     Insufficient receptacle distribution;
     Lack of sufficient lighting fixtures;
     Deteriorated, damaged, worn or otherwise defective
    wiring, equipment and appliances;
     Improperly installed or protected wiring methods;
     Lack of proper service or equipment grounding;
     Open splices in wiring;
     Inadequately supported devices, wiring or
    equipment;
     Any exposed conductors or components constituting
    a shock hazard;
     Missing or damaged device cover plates;
     Excessive use of extension cords;
     Overloaded receptacles or circuitry; and
     Lack of ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI)
    protection.
    The most commonly encountered hazard is improper
    overcurrent protection of conductors. Fuses
    and circuit breakers are devices designed to limit current
    flow to the maximum safe current-carrying capacity
    (ampacity) of a conductor. With rare exception, the
    conductor’s current-carrying capacity (ampacity)
    must be greater than or at least equal to the ampere
    rating of the overcurrent device that supplies it. If a
    fuse or circuit breaker has a larger ampere-rating capacity
    than the conductors it is intended to protect, the
    device will permit the conductors to carry currents in
    excess of the conductors’ capacity. The resultant
    overload will cause conductor heating, insulation deterioration
    and, possibly, a fire. The typical scenario is
    the occupant who thinks he or she has “cured” a fuseblowing
    problem by substituting fuses that are larger
    in size. This appears to alleviate the problem for the
    occupant but, in actuality, an extreme fire hazard has
    been created by eliminating the circuit conductor
    overcurrent protection.

    This is considered a minimum standard for occupancy



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