Thread: Panel Size question

Good morning

Talking with an agent the other day about Electrical baseboard and Gas Heating.

I have not seen it, yet. Friday ???

She mentions that it is electric heat with gas?? the panel is 100amp. She asks me if it sized properly, older home... No idea. My first thought is that it shoudlve had a permit when the gas was installed, meaning that the HVAC dude had a permit and the install is cool
Before I go charging in I need to do some more homework, A combined Gas AHU and E/Basebaords need a minimum to run, can a 100 panel handle both?
I understand that other loads come into the equation.
thank you.

Any direction will be appreciated

Steve

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It's not your call to make that determination. You are an observer and report writer, not an engineer, or electrical contractor. Refer ampacity to someone legally qualified to make that determination.

Originally Posted by Jimmy Roberts

It's not your call to make that determination. You are an observer and report writer, not an engineer, or electrical contractor. Refer ampacity to someone legally qualified to make that determination.

Well, I am supposed to look at the system. I am supposed to report what I see. What I dont know is if those two systems will work together. I just cant say that a 100 amp panel is okay to run both systems.
I am not re-wiring or trying to play sparky here.
But if having two of these systems on the same panel is too much I have to advise my (potential) client that it looks bad...right?

The gas portion is generally a 20 amp breaker, so that's not that big of a factor. I'm envisioning forced air with an addition with electric baseboard or something similar. You won't know if 100 amps is enough until you see what the potential amperage draw is on the electric side. It may not a big deal at all, or it may be overloaded. The heaters should have a sticker stating how many watts they are. Start counting, or just turn them all on at once and see if the main breaker trips.

Hey Jim, sounds good. I agree without seeing the panel, cant do much. I didnt think that a gas unit would only be a 20 amp. I have an Air Source Heat Pump and just couldnt run into the basement.

I hope I can get that home, my Jaguar payment is due...

Thank you

Steve

Originally Posted by Jim Robinson

The gas portion is generally a 20 amp breaker, so that's not that big of a factor. I'm envisioning forced air with an addition with electric baseboard or something similar. You won't know if 100 amps is enough until you see what the potential amperage draw is on the electric side. It may not a big deal at all, or it may be overloaded. The heaters should have a sticker stating how many watts they are. Start counting, or just turn them all on at once and see if the main breaker trips.

Most baseboard heaters are 250 watts per foot at 240 volts. If you have 48' of baseboard heaters you have about 50 amps of load. That should give you a "ballpark" idea as to how much of the service might be used by the baseboard heaters.

Originally Posted by Stephen G

my Jaguar payment is due...

My Jaguar payment is pretty reasonable ... ... the average over the last 3 years is just under $200 per month (paid to my mechanic - not bad for the 30 year old gal, and I can't buy a new car for less than that 200 bucks a month, and if I could ... it might be "new" but it would not compare to the old gal ).

Just heard the deal went south....so I ride my road king a little more than the truck...

Jaguar in my laneway would be sweet, dont want to mislead anyone, i dont have one...yet...the jaguar is one of my standard throwaway lines..like baby food and childrens chewable morphine....

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

My Jaguar payment is pretty reasonable ... ... the average over the last 3 years is just under $200 per month (paid to my mechanic - not bad for the 30 year old gal, and I can't buy a new car for less than that 200 bucks a month, and if I could ... it might be "new" but it would not compare to the old gal ).

Steve,

This might help in the future...

Single Family Dwelling Electrical Load Calculator


There is also an easy to use form in the "Code Check Electric" by Redwood Kardon. Guide costs less then $15.

Amazon.com: Code Check Electrical 6th Edition: An Illustrated Guide to Wiring a Safe House (9781600853340): Douglas Hansen, Redwood Kardon, Paddy Morrissey: Books

Jeff,
Thank you for the link and guide. I now have some quiet reading material for this weekend.


** Remember that the little ones are back on our roads next week**

Originally Posted by Jeff Molloy

Steve,

This might help in the future...

Single Family Dwelling Electrical Load Calculator


There is also an easy to use form in the "Code Check Electric" by Redwood Kardon. Guide costs less then $15.

Amazon.com: Code Check Electrical 6th Edition: An Illustrated Guide to Wiring a Safe House (9781600853340): Douglas Hansen, Redwood Kardon, Paddy Morrissey: Books

Your local AHJ will inform you what Codes are in affect for your area of inspections. Within said code, calculation methods are provided for service sizing. Do Not rely on generic methods.
If I were a HI... I doubt I would get involved and become liable for performing such functions that I'm not qualified and/or licensed to do.

You missed my question. If you were an HI you would learn all you can to mitigate liablity. We dont have AHJs we have Building Officials. Once the house has been built they are gone and done. My town has one of them. Unless I am applying for a permit I would never see him. If I am to call out a problem he would not be on the list of people to call. I would clearly state which trade expert would be best suited to answer the question that I could not.

Thanx

Steve

Originally Posted by bob smit

Your local AHJ will inform you what Codes are in affect for your area of inspections. Within said code, calculation methods are provided for service sizing. Do Not rely on generic methods.
If I were a HI... I doubt I would get involved and become liable for performing such functions that I'm not qualified and/or licensed to do.

Originally Posted by Stephen G

If I am to call out a problem he would not be on the list of people to call.

He SHOULD be on that list, and near the top too.

HIs really should make an effort to meet their AHJ inspectors and building officials.

In large departments, it is unlikely you will meet the building official, you will likely meet the Chief Building Inspector, and they are typically over all of the other inspectors.

In a small department, their may only be the building official and one inspector, or maybe the building official is also THE inspector (only one, and he is it).

Over the 17 years while doing home inspections in South Florida, a group of us made it a point to get to know the people who mattered (the building officials, inspectors, Board of Rules and Appeals people, etc.), and as a result of that, many - most - of the things we found were things they had not been looking for, and, over time, they changed what they were looking for.

We learned from them, and they became more aware of what was actually being done from us - all of us were better off for it.

Hi,

Lets be clear. AHJ= Authority Having Jurisdiction. Who is that in the USA. Up here where I live and I am sure other towns have a different names and functions...The AHJ is the Buiding Official around here. As an HI I have no need or requirement to talk with him, Officialy. Unless I am a Builder. Home owner request for Permit. I would never seek him out otherwise or write that you should consult him on whatever matter. I will advise a client if I see work that is not done to any standard and suggest asking to see a build permit (Decks!!!!). Building Code is only for the present. I dont inspect new home construction as the Builder takes on that responsibility.

I know my Building Official personally, Randy. He has a tough job to do and doesnt need me and the other HI asking him questions about a periods of time in the past. This is a small town. I am not saying to avoid him, but I will always refer to the Subject Matter Expert (SME) in that specific trade should it come up.
















erry Peck;177232]He SHOULD be on that list, and near the top too.

HIs really should make an effort to meet their AHJ inspectors and building officials.

In large departments, it is unlikely you will meet the building official, you will likely meet the Chief Building Inspector, and they are typically over all of the other inspectors.

In a small department, their may only be the building official and one inspector, or maybe the building official is also THE inspector (only one, and he is it).

Over the 17 years while doing home inspections in South Florida, a group of us made it a point to get to know the people who mattered (the building officials, inspectors, Board of Rules and Appeals people, etc.), and as a result of that, many - most - of the things we found were things they had not been looking for, and, over time, they changed what they were looking for.

We learned from them, and they became more aware of what was actually being done from us - all of us were better off for it.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Stephen G

The AHJ is the Buiding Official around here. As an HI I have no need or requirement to talk with him, Officialy.

"Officially" you have no "requirement" to talk to him, but you do have a "need" ... you "need" to know how construction is done in your area, which includes the code and local quirks (and sometimes ... local jerks).

You are doing your client a disservice if you do not know how construction is supposed to be - you are, after all, inspecting a house which was (or should have been) constructed to the local code and enforcement thereof.

How can you 'know what is right to determine what is wrong' unless (obviously) you 'know what is right'? You can kid yourself all you want, but if you are inspecting a house you SHOULD KNOW HOW IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN constructed.

I would never seek him out otherwise or write that you should consult him on whatever matter.

And it is attitudes like that which keep them (the AHJ and their inspectors) from having much of an opinion of what you do - why should they think much of what you do, you apparently do not care HOW the house should have been built, so you probably just write up weird things (that is what they are likely thinking).

Unless YOU take steps to change that, it will not change.

YOU make your own bed, as the saying goes, in your own area, now you have to lie in it.

Things are much better when there is a friendly working relationship between the home inspectors and the AHJ.

I know my Building Official personally, Randy. He has a tough job to do and doesnt need me and the other HI asking him questions about a periods of time in the past.

He should not mind it, in fact, he should be glad you are asking.

No wonder so many AHJ inspectors think home inspectors are jerks, that attitude just proves their case. Crimeny.

As a Home Inspector I do know how it works, dont be so presumptuous. In Ontario Canada, I must be certified Part 9 Ontario Building Code. I can read code with the best. But it has nothing to do with a 20 year old home. Knowing how its built, wont prevent fly by nite contractors from installing anything into a home. I have only been doing this for two years, plus College, 14 exams (all proctored). I was a general contractor for 4 and a Heavy Military Engineering Technician for 27 years. Tradesman for over thirty. I got this.

The original post had a question regarding a potential clients home having two systems. I have seen my share of doubled systems just not GAS and Baseboard. Thats all the question was. If you think otherwise then maybe your just looking for an arguement. And I wont play

Out.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"Officially" you have no "requirement" to talk to him, but you do have a "need" ... you "need" to know how construction is done in your area, which includes the code and local quirks (and sometimes ... local jerks).

You are doing your client a disservice if you do not know how construction is supposed to be - you are, after all, inspecting a house which was (or should have been) constructed to the local code and enforcement thereof.

How can you 'know what is right to determine what is wrong' unless (obviously) you 'know what is right'? You can kid yourself all you want, but if you are inspecting a house you SHOULD KNOW HOW IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN constructed.



And it is attitudes like that which keep them (the AHJ and their inspectors) from having much of an opinion of what you do - why should they think much of what you do, you apparently do not care HOW the house should have been built, so you probably just write up weird things (that is what they are likely thinking).

Unless YOU take steps to change that, it will not change.

YOU make your own bed, as the saying goes, in your own area, now you have to lie in it.

Things are much better when there is a friendly working relationship between the home inspectors and the AHJ.



He should not mind it, in fact, he should be glad you are asking.

No wonder so many AHJ inspectors think home inspectors are jerks, that attitude just proves their case. Crimeny.

The original question was: "Panel Size question"
- The answer is that they are about so-wide and yea-tall.

The original question question was answered - there is no reason for a home inspector to do load calculations, if the home inspector is concerned about it, have an electrical contractor come out and do the load calculations.

If that panel was overloaded (i.e., "too small"), then the mains would be tripping, even if the branch circuits were not.

Sizing of the panel depends on what is there:
- all gas appliance house, 3,000 sf, 125 amp panel
- all electric house, 1,500 sf, 100 amp panel
- all gas appliance house, 2,500 sf, 150 amp panel, house has fully equipped shop, welders, everything

Which is undersized and why?

Originally Posted by Stephen G

Good morning

Talking with an agent the other day about Electrical baseboard and Gas Heating.

I have not seen it, yet. Friday ???

She mentions that it is electric heat with gas?? the panel is 100amp. She asks me if it sized properly, older home... No idea. My first thought is that it shoudlve had a permit when the gas was installed, meaning that the HVAC dude had a permit and the install is cool

Before I go charging in I need to do some more homework, A combined Gas AHU and E/Basebaords need a minimum to run, can a 100 panel handle both?

I understand that other loads come into the equation.

thank you.

Any direction will be appreciated

Steve

I have only been doing this for two years, plus College, 14 exams (all proctored). I was a general contractor for 4 and a Heavy Military Engineering Technician for 27 years. Tradesman for over thirty. I got this.

Well, lets start with the title of this topic discussion, which was/is "Panel Size question".

It occurs to me that what you are likely asking about is a "Service Size" question, not a "Panel size". Next, it seems you're asking about load calculations, perhaps not. Regarding your assumptions of a HVAC contractor, likely erroneous. Checking on that history is a normal due-dillegance step - and any savy puchaser in your area would make their purchase contingent upon.


Here is a direct link to a post on a 2-1/2 year old thread, concluding with links to the Electrical Safety Authority (Ontario).

(clickable link to other thread post):
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...39-post19.html

We don't have "electrical safety authorities" in the U.S. Our jurisdictinal authorities don't have the power to "confiscate unsafe products" or work anything like yours. Unlike how things work in Ontario, our electricity suppliers/distributors have no "inspection authority" or seizure authority over what we install or how we use the electricity we purchase (passes through the meter).

Things work differently in the U.S., including the "power" or "lack thereof" of our private utility companies, unlike your "Hydro" Distribution.

Furthermore our form of government, the structure within our Individual States versus your Provinces, are distinctly different. Our Electrical Codes and the Standards for Safety for Electrical equipment is uniquely and distinctively different.

If you're going to post questions to a majority U.S. audience, a U.S. based site, where well over 90 percent of those who participate are U.S. based, then you've, frankly, got some nerve, getting bent out of shape when folks "overlook" or don't bother to look at your stated location and respond with "American" based code (legal) terms.

It would be out of the area of responsiblity for a HI in Ontario or in the U.S. to be performing load calculations, which seems to be part of what you are asking about, but perhaps not.

Question:

What is the minimum size electrical service required by the Code for the new home I am having built?

Answer:

It depends on the size of the home and the type and size of electrical loads associated with it.

Examples of electrical loads that will influence the minimum service size are large electric appliances such as an electric stove, an electric clothes dryer, electric water heating, electric hot tub, electric space heating, air conditioning, etc. A qualified electrical contractor can do a load calculation to determine the minimum electrical service requirements.

The minimum size of electrical service for single dwellings of less than 80 sq m (860 sq ft) is the greater of either 60 amps or the calculated load and for single dwellings of 80 sq m and above is the greater of 100 amps or the calculated load.

It is recommended that the installed service be large enough to accommodate the calculated load plus have additional capacity for future electrical needs.

Question:

I am thinking of purchasing a townhouse that has an existing 60 amp service, is this OK?

Answer:

It depends. It probably met the Code of the day when it was installed and if no large electrical loads have been added since then, the service should still be adequate. If however, loads such as a sauna, a hot tub, a pool, air conditioning, electric heat, or other larger loads have been installed then a load calculation needs to be done to determine the minimum service size required to prevent overloading of the electrical service and to comply with the Code.

Question:

What is a load calculation?

Answer:

A load calculation is an estimate of the minimum ampere rating of an electrical service required to safely serve an electrical installation such as a dwelling unit without being overloaded. For dwelling units, the minimum ampere rating is computed using factors for floor area and large loads such as an electric stove, clothes dryer, water heater, electric heating, air conditioning, a sauna, steamer, hot tub, pool, etc.


Reference for questions above: Rule 8-200.
Ontario Electrical Safety Code 24th Edition/2009.

The terms you Canadians use in your electrical code have completely different meanings. Don't even "go there" regarding grounding, bonding, earthing, grounded, etc. I'm guessing so are your abbreviations since an air handler unit here doesn't equate a furnace, or a packaged heat pump, etc. I suggest you ask your electrical questions elsewhere, if you can't handle that. Otherwise, educate yourself on the distinctions with differences before you stir the pot further.

Electrical Safety Authority (Ontario)

From: Buying a Home

Buying a Home

Buying a home is one of the largest investments that we can make, and you want to minimize any surprises.

It is recommended that a record search be conducted with the Electrical Safety Authority to ensure that no outstanding workorders exist on the property that you are considering purchasing. Your lawyer can request a record search to check if ESA has any recorded outstanding defects on the property, or open notifications.

If you are not sure the wiring meets Ontario Electrical Safety Code requirements, you can request that the owner arrange for a general inspection as part of the terms and conditions of purchase. The general inspection will identify if there are any electrical defects that need to be corrected. The existing owner will be responsible for correcting any defects – or can negotiate with the potential purchaser to assume responsibility.

In addition, it is recommended that you ask the previous owner for copies of “Certificates of Inspection” for any electrical installations/modifications that have been conducted since the original construction of the home.

http://www.esasafe.com/pdf/ESA_Fall_...final_2008.pdf

Record Search & Request of Information

Record Search – a request for a search through the ESA’s records to identify any outstanding notifications associated with a specific site. Record searches are provided on demand, typically to satisfy a title search for the sale of property. Requests should be completed using the Request for Record Search Application. There is a fee associated with this service.

Request for Information (Freedom of Information Request) – a formal request for information or access to records in the custody and control of the ESA. Requests are reviewed on an individual basis in accordance with our policy to ensure the requestor has a right to access the record. Requests should be completed using the Request for Information Application. In most cases, there is a fee associated with this service

You should already be aware of this information and procedures relative to same as you've been so well educated to be working as a home inspector for prospective property purchasers in Ontario, Canada, right?

Yes, you are all correct.

Discussion boards are faceless. Typed words do not always show exactly what the author is trying to parlay. No emotions or feelings, words are cold. Miss a word or use the wrong word and it can and will be misinterpreted. Writing on these boards does come with a price and a quick education in geography and humility. I will use more care while posting.
Thank you.


Steve

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Electrical Safety Authority (Ontario)

From: Buying a Home



You should already be aware of this information and procedures relative to same as you've been so well educated to be working as a home inspector for prospective property purchasers in Ontario, Canada, right?