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  1. #1
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    Default ceiling fan in garages

    Does a ceiling fan installed in a garage violate any code? Or is the installation acceptable?

    thanks,

    b

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    This question is way too vague.

    Residential or commercial garage? Was the proper support means used? Is the clearance to the floor adequate?

    With that said, there is no direct prohibition in the NEC against paddle fans in garages.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Jim,
    Not vague.
    " Does a ceiling fan installed in a garage violate any code? Or is the installation acceptable?"
    Take the question for what it is, like a exam question. Answer: Acceptable.
    It's when you start describing the installation the issue of vagueness comes in to question.

    Not to pick a fight. Many come with a simple question and we make it more complicated than it need to be. Though the devil is in the details of any installation.


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    I look at it the other way Gary. I could have answered the OP with a yes, but suppose the proper support was not used or it was 6-6" from the floor. Now the answer is no.

    Here is one for you, the question is how many receptacles can be installed on a circuit. Please provide your answer.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    how many receptacles can be installed on a circuit. Please provide your answer.
    Now THAT is a loaded question for sure.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    For the sake of others:
    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    Does a ceiling fan installed in a garage violate any code?
    No. (See what Garry Sorrells was saying.*)

    Or is the installation acceptable?
    Depends. (See what Jim Port was saying.)

    *Presuming the question is about a private garage in a dwelling unit.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    I look at it the other way Gary. I could have answered the OP with a yes, but suppose the proper support was not used or it was 6-6" from the floor. Now the answer is no.

    Here is one for you, the question is how many receptacles can be installed on a circuit. Please provide your answer.

    As many as you want.


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    As many as you want.
    Incorrect. Not enough information was given nor did you ask for pertainent information that would have affected the ability to answer correctly. There are limits depending on the circuit usage, residential or commercial, ampacity draw, whether the load supplies both fixed and cord connected loads.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Incorrect. Not enough information was given nor did you ask for pertainent information that would have affected the ability to answer correctly. There are limits depending on the circuit usage, residential or commercial, ampacity draw, whether the load supplies both fixed and cord connected loads.
    No---- correct.....
    You questioned....
    "... the question is how many receptacles can be installed on a circuit?"

    You can have any number of receptacles on a circuit since there is no restrictions on the number of receptacles on a circuit, when the circuit has not been identified. Something like how many bricks can you put into a bag? How many people can you put in a plane? It is all about the details. If no details are given then the answer is based within the parameters given. You stated nothing about the circuit in question. Which takes us back to the original posting question, "Does a ceiling fan installed in a garage violate any code? Or is the installation acceptable?" As asked, with no other details the fan does not violate code in and of itself. It is the installation method that comes into question and there is where the details make it acceptable or not.

    You may say it is semantics, but it is all about the wording.

    ((( We may have to much time on our hands due to the rain on the east coast. )))


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Here is one for you, the question is how many receptacles can be installed on a circuit. Please provide your answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    As many as you want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Incorrect. Not enough information was given nor did you ask for pertainent information that would have affected the ability to answer correctly. There are limits depending on the circuit usage, residential or commercial, ampacity draw, whether the load supplies both fixed and cord connected loads.
    I tried to warn Garry, but no ... he didn't listen ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    Depends. (See what Jim Port was saying.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    No---- correct.....
    You questioned....
    "... the question is how many receptacles can be installed on a circuit?"

    You can have any number of receptacles on a circuit since there is no restrictions on the number of receptacles on a circuit, when the circuit has not been identified.
    Garry, you are incorrect, Jim is correct, and even in your last post above you seem to unconsciously getting it with your "when the circuit has not been identified" ... I did try to warn you.

    There ARE cases where the number and size of receptacles on a circuit are limited, but you did not read what was written, instead, I suspect your ASSUMED Jim was asking about a typical residential multi-outlet circuit ... but Jim did not say that.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Jerry,
    The original garage fan question did not specify what type of fan the ceiling fan was. The ceiling fan is just a fan mounted at the ceiling as opposed to a wall mounted fan. When someone says ceiling fan you may first think of a paddle fan, but that was not stated. Though "... violate any code..." is also an open ended question . USA, Canada, European, some country in Africa who's code? Probably the best answer to the original post should have been that some where there may be a code that does not allow a fan on the ceiling in a garage.

    Number of receptacles on a circuit without any further specification has no real meaning since they could be on a space station. Point being, until you add further information or specifications then most anything goes.

    Of course we could require the amount of detail that H G Watson requires before any response is made.

    It is interesting that the original posting never qualified the inquiry. While we tend to fly off in every direction from the OP and quibble with each other.


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    No it does violate any codes,as long as all other issues in the garage are proper and up to code,you want a ceiling fan in the garage,go for it.


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    The original garage fan question did not specify what type of fan the ceiling fan was. The ceiling fan is just a fan mounted at the ceiling as opposed to a wall mounted fan. When someone says ceiling fan you may first think of a paddle fan,
    Garry,

    A "ceiling fan" is a "ceiling fan", i.e., a "paddle fan".

    A 'fan mounted from the ceiling' is not a "ceiling fan".

    A rose by any other name ... can still be a thorn in the side.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Here is one for you, the question is how many receptacles can be installed on a circuit. Please provide your answer.
    In Canada, 12 receptacles (or light fixtures) on a 15 amp circuit, 16 on a 20 amp circuit.
    Receptacles are usually duplex, and there can be multiple light sockets on a fixture, but those are the max for residential branch circuits set by the CEC. FYI.

    Since the OP didn't specify the type of fan, the question can't be answered properly. Next question, please.

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    Wink Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Garry,

    A "ceiling fan" is a "ceiling fan", i.e., a "paddle fan".

    A 'fan mounted from the ceiling' is not a "ceiling fan".

    A rose by any other name ... can still be a thorn in the side.

    But it was not written as a proper name ( Ceiling Fan), therefore it is a fan on the ceiling....
    I realize most, including myself, automatically think of a ceiling fan as a paddle fan. That is were, when we get into nit picking about all of the descriptions and specifications of design, we get bogged down at times i.e. HG Watson. I just wanted to have a little fun knowing how it would get people stirred up . Been raining here day in and day out and getting cabin fever... Surprised that Lisa E. didn't chime in with some course that they offer on how to ask questions.....


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    In Canada, 12 receptacles (or light fixtures) on a 15 amp circuit, 16 on a 20 amp circuit.
    Receptacles are usually duplex, and there can be multiple light sockets on a fixture, but those are the max for residential branch circuits set by the CEC. FYI.

    Since the OP didn't specify the type of fan, the question can't be answered properly. Next question, please.

    Q: What is the meaning of life? In 10 words.


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Q: What is the meaning of life? In 10 words.
    According to Dictionary.com
    "The general or universal condition of human existence"

    Life | Define Life at Dictionary.com

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    According to Dictionary.com
    "The general or universal condition of human existence"

    Life | Define Life at Dictionary.com
    But is that really the "meaning"?
    There is more to life that what is found in a dictionary compiled on negotiation and group conciliation. Would you like for the us Congress to make the determination on the question?


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Q: What is the meaning of life? In 10 words.
    Define "meaning", then define "life". In 10 words. Combined, not each.

    Then define "is".

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Garry,

    A "ceiling fan" is a "ceiling fan", i.e., a "paddle fan".

    A 'fan mounted from the ceiling' is not a "ceiling fan".

    A rose by any other name ... can still be a thorn in the side.
    WRONG, completely and totally! A "ceiling fan" can be a ceiling-suspended paddle fan, or it could be a HOST OF OTHER TYPES OF FANS, including but not limited to a caged fan which may or may not be stationary, which has been mounted, not necessarily permanently connected, to the ceiling, and which has been listed and labeled to do so, a ceiling-insert fan, and many others.

    UL 507 is the standard all the responders are referring to, NOT NECESSARILY the original poster, who was ambigous even as to the location, "garage", and could be referring to a completely diferent type fan. Are we presuming the fan the OP is refering to is listed for or desired to be used while unattended? perhaps you are, I am not. Fans may or may not be listed for unattended use.

    UL identifies how such fans are to be marked, labeled, identified, as well as the multitude of requirements as to construction, testing, etc.

    Table of Contents for UL 507


    You've got CEILING-SUSPENDED FANS, CEILING-INSERT FANS, SWAG-MOUNTED CEILING-SUSPENDED FANS, to name a few.

    The NEC would call your assumptive device a ceiling-suspended paddle fan. Not all ceiling-suspended fans are PADDLE FANS. Certainly, not all "ceiling fans" are ceiling-suspended either - as there are ceiling-INSERT fans of various types.

    So your leaps that a "ceiling fan" is a "ceiling-suspended fan" let alone a "ceiing-suspended paddle fan" are erroneous.

    Your position that a "Ceiling Fan" with or without capital letters is and only can be a paddle fan, or that when a commonly understood to be a paddle fan is loosely referred to as a "ceiling fan" said "ceiling fan" would NOT ceiling-suspended is a joke, right?




    To brianmiller:

    Not if the equipment is appropriately listed, labeled, and used (possibly installed) in accordance with its listing, instructions, etc. and not otherwise prohibited by the conditions, location, proximity, environment, and other activites, storage, etc. of said (presumedly finished) garage.

    Check your, or get yourself, a UL White Book. Check the LISTING, LABELING and INSTRUCTIONS of your "fan candidate" and the conditions of your "garage" and your intended use and application of said "ceiling fan" and "garage", then check with your AHJ.

    UL clickable link for the Guide Info for category code "GPWV" follows below. The guide info page linked to below includes links to a host of other category codes at the bottom, including that for "Fans intended to be mounted to a ceiling outlet box or ceiling building structure and whose blades rotate below the ceiling to move air are covered under Fans, Ceiling Suspended" which is UL Category Code "GPRT".

    Here's the promised link (clickable): GPWV.GuideInfo - Fans, Electric

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-09-2011 at 10:59 PM.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    [QUOTE=
    Surprised that Lisa E. didn't chime in with some course that they offer on how to ask questions.....[/QUOTE]

    Keep tuned , I'm sure there will be one as soon as his/her office flunkies search the internet to figure out how to ask questions, then create a nacho approved 6 hour CE course and quiz

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Hey, wait a minute here. If there is going to be a six hour course on this subject, shouldn't we make sure that only Eco-friendly equipment be used?


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Y'all need to go spend some time marketing to get more business instead of arguing semantics.

    You have way too much time on your hands.

    Get a job!

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    WRONG, completely and totally!
    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    Does a ceiling fan installed in a garage violate any code? Or is the installation acceptable?
    Let's ask Brian if I am wrong - what say you Brian, what kind of fan are you referring to?

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Let's ask Brian if I am wrong - what say you Brian, what kind of fan are you referring to?
    Come on Jerry, just put on your psychic hat and post away.

    Wait, maybe Brian was talking about having a groupie mounted to the ceiling. Wonder what the UL classification is on that?

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Come on Jerry, just put on your psychic hat and post away.

    Wait, maybe Brian was talking about having a groupie mounted to the ceiling. Wonder what the UL classification is on that?
    Somehow I just don't think Brian would be asking the question if the fan was other than a paddle fan. Frankly I would think that ceiling fan would mean the ole paddle fan. If you google ceiling fan guess what you get....lots and lots and lots of fans that have paddles narry a hit on any other kinda fan. But hey this is an electrical forum so lets over think the situation.

    A ceiling fan is a fan, usually electrically powered, suspended from the ceiling of a room, that uses hub-mounted rotating paddles to circulate air.

    Now that isn't white book or NEC lingo but I'll bet my lucky star ( I only have one ) that is what Brian meant.

    Brian needs to reply and save my 'lucky star'....


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Now that isn't white book ...
    ... but this is: (bold, underlining and red text are mine)

    - FANS, CEILING SUSPENDED (GPRT)
    - - GENERAL
    - - - This category covers:
    - - - - Ceiling-suspended fans intended to be mounted to a ceiling outlet box or ceiling building structure, and whose blades rotate below the ceiling to move air for the purpose of air circulation.
    Light kits intended for use with ceiling-suspended fans.
    - - - - Ceiling-suspended fans and accessories intended for permanent installation are provided with means for connection to permanent wiring systems.
    - - - - This category does not cover ceiling-suspended fans intended to be used in hazardous (classified) locations as defined by ANSI/NFPA 70, ‘‘National Electrical Code,’’ or intended to be installed over solvents or chemically flammable liquids or vapors or located in a chemically corrosive environment.
    - - PRODUCT MARKINGS
    - - - Ceiling-suspended fans intended for mounting beneath a ceiling structure, such as provided on porches or patios, have been subjected to a water-spray test and are marked as being acceptable for such use.
    - - - Ceiling-suspended-fan light kits are provided with a marking on the light kit, on the packaging carton, and in the instructions to indicate the fan models with which they are suitable.
    - - RELATED PRODUCTS
    - - - Fan-speed controllers for use with fans are covered under Fan-speed Controllers (GQHG).
    - - ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
    - - - For additional information, see Electrical Equipment for Use in Ordinary Locations (AALZ).
    - - REQUIREMENTS
    - - - The basic standard used to investigate products in this category is ANSI/UL 507, ‘‘Electric Fans.’’
    - - UL MARK
    - - - The Listing Mark of Underwriters Laboratories Inc. on the product is the only method provided by UL to identify products manufactured under its Listing and Follow-Up Service. The Listing Mark for these products includes the UL symbol (as illustrated in the Introduction of this Directory) together with the word "LISTED", a control number, and the product name ‘‘Ceiling Fan,’’ ‘‘Ceiling Suspended Fan’’ or ‘‘Fan Accessory,’’ or other appropriate product name as shown in the individual Listings.
    - - - The Listing Mark for this category requires the use of a holographic label.

    Gosh darn it ... I shoulda thunk of checking the UL White Book ... THANK YOU ROGER!


    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 09-11-2011 at 12:35 PM. Reason: noticed that font type changed and the font size changed larger and smaller, made font all the same size and type
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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    I just love documentation .... It gives me little frizzlies all over ....


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Peck, you're beyond funny, your attempts at self-justification are juvenile, futile and frankly STUPID.

    First your selective blindness as to what you bother to cut and paste, highlight and edit is downright laughable. It doesn't support YOUR contention in any way.

    Secondly, the category code is inclusive of MANY STYLES of fans BEYOND PADDLE FANS.

    Third, you confuse the use and style of a COMPLETE UL LISTED MARK with that of LISTING, LABELING, and MARKING to the ANSI/UL STANDARD for WHICH THE PRODUCT IS "LISTED".

    Your selective editing and focus on what is now and has been required regarding the ever-changing holographic label from UL and to wit the portion of the GUIDE INFO/ that you focus on is generic as to the overall category for the ANTI-COUNTERFEITING REQUIREMENTS for THIS OVERALL PRODUCT CATEGORY SPECIAL HOLOGRAPHIC UL LABELS.

    FURTHER, IT PERTAINS ONLY TO THOSE PODUCTS PRODUCED UNDER UL'S SERVICES - NOT AS A PART OF THE STANDARD(S) FOR SAFETY SUCH PRODUCTS ARE PRODUCED UNDER WHICH INCLUDES HOW THEY ARE IDENTIFIED, LABELED AND MARKED. UL IS NOT THE ONLY LISTING SERVICE.

    FINALLY, IT DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU THINK IT SAYS (selective emphasis), NOR DOES IT SUPPORT YOUR CONTENTION that the only "fans" which are marked, labeled, identified, markeTed, or for that matter CATEGORIZED BY UL as "ceiling fan" are PADDLE FANS!!! THAT IS CATEGORICALLY UNEQUIVICALLY FALSE.

    There are a HOST for example, of broan fans which are CEILING MOUNTED which are ONLY (as per their listing file under THIS category code (GPRT) "indicated" as "CEILING FAN" AS PER THEIR INDIVIDUAL LISTING, NONE of which are "paddle fans", Listed under THIS category Code (GPRT).

    You are WRONG regards to your uneducated, uninformed false "theory" that all products marked "ceiling fan" can ONLY be a ceiling-suspended fan, or that all products marked or called "ceiling fan" are paddle fans!

    The portion you focus on IS language NOT SPECIFIC ONLY TO "ceiling-suspened PADDLE fans (unguarded as to rotating fins)" it is for ANY CEILING fan or accessory for same which includes any fan listed to be mounted in the vicinity (in or on) a "ceiling area ONLY (as opposed to fans which may be listed to mount in that same location and orientation, but ALSO - for example: IN or ON a wall; or for that matter without a ceiling finish at all anywhere at or above the installation), it is primarily listed as requested by the mfg and HAS TO DO WITH THE WEIGHT & FORCES CATEGORY and requirements thereto OF THE PRODUCT ITSELF and ANY LISTED ACCESSORIES, ALSO LISTED BY UL, SPECIFICALLY ALLOWED TO BE ADDED TO THE PRODUCT (such as "light kits", remote control kits, etc.), which FURTHER DETERMINE which PRODUCT NAME is SELECTED in conjunction with WHICH TESTS, CATEGORIES, ETC. are SELECTED BY THE MANUFACTURER TO BE UTILIZED WHEN CONTRACTING FOR UL's LISTING SERVICES (and may change from time-to-time, the history and status of which is PROPRIETARY only to UL and the CUSTOMER/MANUFACTURER and is valid only at the time of mfg WHEN SERVICES are under contract).

    UL MARK
    The Listing Mark of UL on the product is the only method provided by UL to identify products manufactured under its Listing and Follow-Up Service. The Listing Mark for these products includes the UL symbol (as illustrated in the Introduction of this Directory) together with the word "LISTED," a control number, and the product name "Ceiling Fan," "Ceiling Suspended Fan" or "Fan Accessory," or other appropriate product name as shown in the individual PRODUCT Listings.

    The Listing Mark for this category requires the use of a holographic label.
    The UNDERWRITERS LABORABORIES (UL) LISTING Mark for this category requires the use of a SPECIALIZED AND SPECIFIC label WHICH INCLUDES THE PRODUCT TYPE AS PER THE INDIVIDUAL PRODUCT/MODEL LISTING AS PER THE LISTING CARD (not public access) WITH UL. IT IS NOT GERMAIN to the STANDARD(S) for SAFETY - it is an ANTI-COUNTERFEITING MEASURE AND IS GERMAIN ONLY TO PRODUCTS PRODUCED UNDER "THEIR" LISTING FOLLOW-UP SERVICES.

    You've got the distinction all messed up. It is as to the FAN MOTOR is located i.e. if ONLY may be suspended under a ceiling surface vs. allowed to be surface mounted or suspended (or insert - flush, etc.) as to the canopy, etc. relationship to the motor(s), not the STYLE (paddle, guarded, OR OTHERWISE) or style/TYPE of fan.

    GPRT "Ceiling fan" which may be "ceiling suspended" even "ceiling suspended fan" MAY include a paddle fan, but not to the exclusion of MANY OTHER STYLE/TYPE Electric Fans.

    And regarding the requirements of the use of the UL mark ON THE PRODUCT ITSELF - those requirements for various categories and sub categories (name) have changed continuously over the years in UL's efforts to combat the REAL problem with COUNTERFEIT MARKS and illegal use of same. As it happens the PARTICULAR Category Code "Guide Info" file has not even been fully "updated" to "REVEAL" ALL of the requirements of the "special" label, or what is FULLY required to be upon same. There is a reason for this, but is well beyond your "need to know" and is also proprietary.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-11-2011 at 11:19 AM.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Peck, you're beyond funny, your attempts at self-justification are juvenile, futile and frankly STUPID.

    First your selective blindness as to what you bother to cut and paste, highlight and edit is downright laughable. It doesn't support YOUR contention in any way.

    Secondly, the category code is inclusive of MANY STYLES of fans BEYOND PADDLE FANS.
    Watson,

    More babbling from you, sigh, you really need to get back on your meds.

    "First your selective blindness as to what you bother to cut and paste, highlight and edit is downright laughable."

    First, I did not selectively COPY and paste, I COPIED and pasted THE ENTIRE section related to ceiling-suspended fans.

    Second, I just did a search through the NEC to find out how many different types of ceiling-suspended fans there are in the NEC, and, Good Golly Miss Molly!, all the "ceiling-suspended" fan related sections in the NEC referenced them as this: (bold and underlining are mine)
    - 314.27 Outlet Boxes.
    - - (D) Boxes at Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fan Outlets. Outlet boxes or outlet box systems used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall be listed, shall be marked by their manufacturer as suitable for this purpose, and shall not support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 32 kg (70 lb). For outlet boxes or outlet box systems designed to support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 16 kg (35 lb), the required marking shall include the maximum weight to be supported.
    - - (E) Utilization Equipment. Boxes used for the support of utilization equipment other than ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall meet the requirements of 314.27(A) and (B) for the support of a luminaire that is the same size and weight.
    - - - Exception: Utilization equipment weighing not more than 3 kg (6 lb) shall be permitted to be supported on other boxes or plaster rings that are secured to other boxes, provided the equipment or its supporting yoke is secured to the box with no fewer than two No. 6 or larger screws.

    EVERY reference to "ceiling-suspended" fans stated the same thing: "ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Sigh!

    First off I was quoting, referencing and made mention of the UL White Book two days and six posts before "Roger" ever joined this discussion (Post #20). You still don't know how to "READ" let alone "USE" it.

    The Meds and other comments are as usual, your typical level. So common you resort to same when you the Ass in ASSUME you know-it-all, but know-so-little pontificate.

    As usual you inflict your own limitations (intellectual, knowledge, or defective key-word searches of a document you do not understand!) upon others.

    You couldn't grasp the "concept" back when you bragged about your history illegally converting fixtures and doing scab unlicensed, unskilled installations (you've bragged about this in oh, so MANY posts here at .net as well as former site at .com) and you still can't "get over" your inability to comprehend what you may have access to and what you have never had access to, as well as a gosh-darn STANDARD ITSELF in the first place.

    In simple non-technical terms - the difference between a fan which may have a TRUE "hugger" mount OR be one that may be a multi-mount (multiple ways to mount including a "hugger" mount, Versus one that may ONLY be mounted in a SUSPENDED FROM THE CEILING fashion) without acquision of parts, kits, or accessories NOT included in the LISTED product, or if they are, as sold and pre-assembled portions are done so so as to be SUSPENDED and requiring some de-assembly prior to preparing for assembly and installation in a manner OTHER than suspended (such as a "hugger" plate mount). What matters is WHERE the portion of the fan motor that remains stationary IS when the fan product is installed and how supported, according to its listing, labeling and installation instructions indicate.

    NOT ALL CEILING-SUSPENDED FANS ARE PADDLE FANS. What you have CHOSEN TO SELECTIVELY PICK are those which ARE EXPOSED, UN-CAGED BLADED FANS which are CEILING-SUSPENDED in their INSTALLATION - and as such HAVE SPECIAL EXTRA REQUIREMENTS including a minimum fan box to 35 lbs and a special fan box (heavier duty) for those that exceed 35 lbs. There ARE CEILING-SUSPENDED FANS which are NOT PADDLE FANS, and there are OH SO MANY PRODUCT MARKED "CEILING FANS" which ARE NOT CEILING-SUSPENDED in EVERY LISTED, MARKED, INSTRUCTIONS, perfectly compliant with the NEC, and all other applicable codes, INSTALLATION/APPLICATION.

    A "PADDLE" is just a fan BLADE, generally blades which are flat as opposed to a twist in their design. A PADDLE FAN is a flat bladded fan, generally unguarded fan blade rotation.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-11-2011 at 02:17 PM.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    Does a ceiling fan installed in a garage violate any code? Or is the installation acceptable?

    thanks,

    b

    Depends.

    What's the ceiling finish? flame-spread index, etc. Is the ceiling insulated? Sheilded? Is the Ceiling part of a fire resistant floor/ceiling assembly?

    What's above the ceiling of the garage? shared attic, occupied storage space, habital space, "living space".

    Is the "garage" a conditioned space? What is the "tightness" of the "garage" i.e. air infiltration/exchange.

    What's attached to the garage

    What type of "ceiling fan".

    What type of garage

    What the use of the garage

    What are the conditions of the garage, damp, storage of hazardous, projects, flyings, dust, corrosives, fumes, mechanicals (such as furnaces, water heaters, etc.), laundry equipment, etc.

    Attended use or unattended use ratings for the fan, active or automatic operation of the fan.

    Other ammenities/features or accessories to the fan.

    And a host of other.

    It depends.

    It would be contrary to "the codes" to install or utilize such equipment inconsistant with its listing, labeling, and instructions.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-11-2011 at 02:24 PM.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Sigh!

    A "PADDLE" is just a fan BLADE, generally blades which are flat as opposed to a twist in their design. A PADDLE FAN is a flat bladded fan, generally unguarded fan blade rotation.
    Sigh! Is correct.

    Even more gobbledy gook from you.

    The "paddle" blades are not required to be "flat", many have a twist in their design, many are of quite fancy blade design, and most of the non-wood blades have some type of twist. Yes, most, if not all, the wood blades are "flat", but there are other blade types.

    Watson, you just keep digging the hole you have put yourself in deeper and deeper.

    I know that many of the readers hear find your tirades comical, many find them tiresome, and many do not even read them as they have you on their ignore list (you probably should be on everyone's "ignore list", but then your posts would not go unchallenged when you are wrong, which happens all to frequently) ... but I digress ... there are also SOME here who tire of your rants and my responses to them, and then they contact Brian, who contacts us ...

    ... So, before that happens ... I will let your babble on and on on this thread and will only point out occasionally where you are wrong.

    I am doing this so that maybe this will slowly reduce in intensity and to allow you to exit somewhat gracefully.

    Jeez, that man is hard to take most of the time, and is probably not worth the time it takes to correct his incorrect information - but that information cannot be left undisputed lest some take it as correct.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Sigh! Is correct.

    Even more gobbledy gook from you.

    The "paddle" blades are not required to be "flat", many have a twist in their design, many are of quite fancy blade design, and most of the non-wood blades have some type of twist. Yes, most, if not all, the wood blades are "flat", but there are other blade types.

    Watson, you just keep digging the hole you have put yourself in deeper and deeper.

    I know that many of the readers hear find your tirades comical, many find them tiresome, and many do not even read them as they have you on their ignore list (you probably should be on everyone's "ignore list", but then your posts would not go unchallenged when you are wrong, which happens all to frequently) ... but I digress ... there are also SOME here who tire of your rants and my responses to them, and then they contact Brian, who contacts us ...

    ... So, before that happens ... I will let your babble on and on on this thread and will only point out occasionally where you are wrong.

    I am doing this so that maybe this will slowly reduce in intensity and to allow you to exit somewhat gracefully.

    Jeez, that man is hard to take most of the time, and is probably not worth the time it takes to correct his incorrect information - but that information cannot be left undisputed lest some take it as correct.
    Whoda thunk it?


  35. #35
    Daniel Mummey's Avatar
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    Talking Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Answer to the question: No


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Wow, just wow!


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Stone View Post
    Wow, just wow!
    Yep I agree.. There are many posts, that explain things in ways I never knew that are so overwelming, often all I can think is, wow I still have a lot to learn

    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
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  38. #38
    Lou Romano's Avatar
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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    The OP asked two questions!

    Question #1: Does a ceiling fan installed in a garage violate any code? Answer based on this question as it is posed; NO


    Question #2: Or is the installation acceptable? Based on the information given, this question can not be accurately answered!


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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Mummey View Post
    Answer to the question: No
    Daniel,

    That is the answer to WHICH question in the original question?

    The answer is both 'No' (first question) and 'Yes' (second question).

    Oops ... If I had read further down to Lou's post I would have seen that he already said the same thing - sorry 'bout that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  40. #40
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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Romano View Post
    The OP asked two questions!

    Question #1: Does a ceiling fan installed in a garage violate any code? Answer based on this question as it is posed; NO


    Question #2: Or is the installation acceptable? Based on the information given, this question can not be accurately answered!

    I respectfully disagree with your response as to Question 1 as it is posed, i.e. "violate any code", the answer should be the same as the answer to Question 2.

    Based on upon the information given, these questions can not be accurately answered, and certainly not with a simple "yes" or "no".

    Points to ponder, presence and proximity to Cat. I appliances, clearance to secondary exit (man door) pathway, proximity/clearance to CO, Smoke detection equipment, fire suppression equipment, etc. It all depends.

    Consider a non-ventillating, filtered or non-filetered ceiling fan (HEPA, "dust" or "smoke eater" or charcoal filter #art fan for example).

    Installation, according to its listing (including instructions) relative to conditions of the space and utilization of same, which are unknown. Further consideration - electrical circuit supplying same, if otherwise required to be an individual circuit (ex. listed instructions for garage door opener(s), draft control for gas furnace, power venter for gas water heater, etc.) other utilitzation equipment in place), Grounding of switches or otherwise protected, etc.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-13-2011 at 11:26 AM.

  41. #41
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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I respectfully disagree with your response as to Question 1 as it is posed, i.e. "violate any code", the answer should be the same as the answer to Question 2.

    Based on upon the information given, these questions can not be accurately answered, and certainly not with a simple "yes" or "no".

    Points to ponder, presence and proximity to Cat. I appliances, clearance to secondary exit (man door) pathway, proximity/clearance to CO, Smoke detection equipment, fire suppression equipment, etc. It all depends.

    Consider a non-ventillating, filtered or non-filetered ceiling fan (HEPA, "dust" or "smoke eater" or charcoal filter #art fan for example).

    Installation, according to its listing (including instructions) relative to conditions of the space and utilization of same, which are unknown. Further consideration - electrical circuit supplying same, if otherwise required to be an individual circuit (ex. listed instructions for garage door opener(s), draft control for gas furnace, power venter for gas water heater, etc.) other utilitzation equipment in place), Grounding of switches or otherwise protected, etc.
    All of what you say above falls under question #2 and that is why that question can not be accurately answered.

    There is nothing in the NEC that says you can not mount a ceiling fan or any other type of fan in a garage, be it a residential or a commercial garage. Therefore the answer to question #1 which only takes (There is nothing in the NEC that says you can not mount a ceiling fan in a garage) into consideration is "no"! Everything else falls under question #2

    If the OP is still around and wants to elaborate on the installation or show us a picture we can answer question #2. But since he is a home inspector who only appears to be questioning whether a ceiling fan is allowed to be installed in a garage! Even if he didn't word it to our liking, that is what I read in his post! If there are other problems with the installation he is not telling us about them, or asking us to answer.

    Also, I have never heard of anyone mistaking a ceiling fan as anything but a ceiling mounted paddle fan. If it were any other type of fan, like an exhaust fan or a smoke eater etc. they would not call it a ceiling fan. Either way it doesn't matter, any type of fan can be installed in a garage! Location, clearances, wiring methods and everything else would still fall under question #2.

    Think about it before you respond please!

    Last edited by Lou Romano; 09-13-2011 at 04:26 PM.

  42. #42
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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    The NEC is not the only code which is topical to question 1. However, there still isn't enough infomation provided to determine if same would be permitted under the NEC under any circumstances - say a 7 ft ceiling. Meeting the NEC doesn't mean having not conflicted with another "code" provision or the instructions/limitations of another piece of equipment covered under a completely different "code" outside of the NEC, such as NM Mechanical, Building, etc. codes.


    This has been discussed earlier in the thread.

    As far as your generalization that ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans of the UL category code discussed earlier are not in anyway prohibited from being installed in any commercial garage, is again, in both your generalizations false. Commercial Garages may have classified (hazardous) status areas. Depending on the classification, and hazard, and area "any old" paddle fan, "commercial" grade or not, may indeed be prohibited, even in your NEC.. It depends on the categorization, use, environment of the space being considered


    The conditions and characteristics of the hypothetical "garage" are determinative. Floor/ceiling assemblies and protection for roof are for example not covered in the NEC, that would be a different "code". Hence the emphasis in the quote of the word "any". Example, clearance for primary exit (from the garage) route and proximity there to and clearance, example common place for fuel fired appliaces in attached garages in OP's area, proximity thereto.

    There are a number of Electric Fans which are product identified as "ceiling fan" which are not, I repeat NOT, ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans.

    The OP has refered to bathroom ventillation and recirculating (only) fans in the past as "ceiling fans".not necessarily ceiing-insert installations, as well.

    The Standards for which such products are listed include multiple category codes, which in turn have multiple product identifications. The product identification is specific to the listing "card" and proprietary. The Standard for testing and listing electric fans goes into this further.

    Therefore the combined answer to both questions as posed is It depends.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-13-2011 at 04:39 PM.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    In order to cover ones back side, I think you should disclaim any ceiling fans, and/or paddles, or any other air moving device.

    Further one should defer the matter to the AHJ, and to further reduce risk also be sure to recommend inspection by a licenced fan installer who is familiar with placement of fans in garages.

    Be sure to also check with your E&O provider to see if such installations are actually covered in the policy.

    If the fan is running and no one is in the garage to feel the breeze is it still a fan?


  44. #44
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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    Does a ceiling fan installed in a garage violate any code? Or is the installation acceptable?
    If we were to dissect every post the way some want to dissect this post ... the answer to every post would be ... IT DEPENDS ...

    Based on the information given, and given that this is a home inspector's board for home inspectors questions, the REASONABLE PRESUMPTION is that:
    - The garage is a residential garage for a dwelling unit.
    - - As such, is there a code which prohibits a ceiling fan from being installed in a garage? NO.
    - - Are there codes which MAY prohibit a ceiling fan from being installed too close to a fuel burning appliance? MAYBE, BUT THOSE CODES WOULD NOT BE SPECIFIC TO GARAGES, so the answer to THE GARAGE question is that, no, it is not a violation TO HAVE A CEILING FAN INSTALLED IN A GARAGE ... THAT WAS the question, after all.
    - - Also, as such, the question was 'Is the installation of a ceiling fan in a garage is acceptable?' YES.
    - - - The codes DO NOT PROHIBIT THE INSTALLATION OF A CEILING IN A GARAGE.

    Now, if one wants to, and it appears some do want to, change the question to IS THAT PARTICULAR INSTALLATION acceptable FOR A CEILING FAN installed in any room, much less a garage ... well, we do not know all the finite details OF THAT INSTALLATION ... BUT THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION.

    Now, if someone wants to dissect the question into all the minute details, one must first start with HOW was it wired, followed by HOW was the supporting box installed, then find out HOW it was installed to the supporting box, followed by HOW was it connected to the supply wiring to the box, then HOW is it switched, followed by HOW high are the blades, then HOW far are the blades from any obstruction, then ... and the list could go on and on.

    AND the list could get even more definitive: WHAT size are the anchor screws for the supporting box, WHAT were they driven into, WHAT was used to drive them in, WHAT steps were taken to make sure they have at least the minimum edge distance from the edge of the support, WHAT support were they driven into, WHAT ... and this list could go on and on too.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Using the highly unscientific method, I asked what people would envision if I said "ceiling fan". Everyone, including a 12 year old, described a paddle fan like you would see in a room to move air. No one went anywhere near any of the other obtuse definitions that some seem to want to bring to the table. Maybe they all took the words at face value or had common sense and utilized commonly understood terms?

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: ceiling fan in garages

    Holy mackerel,
    you guys...are up the river without a paddle...fan!

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  47. #47
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    Post Re: ceiling fan in garages

    I suggest you tell the client to contact the local codes office. They would know if it's permissible in that area and what would be required to make it acceptable. I also suggest you check with the codes office yourself in case you come across that situation again. Even though home inspectors do not perform codes inspections it is good to know some of the local codes when you come across unusual situations like this.


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