Thread: 12-2 with ground for multi wire

Originally Posted by Larry Morrison

Is this really what I am seeing? You are correct this is a mess.

Nope, not what you are seeing.

You crossed from one white wire to another at the bottom of your line and then went back up the other white wire.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Jim,

I am beginning to think he may be so clueless that he did not even understand what you were pointing out ... that, to him, what he posted and you quoted still sounds correct.

Jim, Bill, you didn't know that the GEC (grounding electrode conductor) is supposed to be run with the circuit conductors? What is wrong with you two ... and me ... I didn't know that either ...

GEC (grounding electrode conductor)
EGC (equipment grounding conductor
CEG (circuit envelope grounding ... okay, I made that one up )
... What's the diff? They all have "grounding" in there someplace, don't they?

You owe me a key board, I laughed so hard I spit coffee into mine.

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

Maybe you ought to just quit while you're ahead. There are multiple answers to several of your questions. The situations they are applied in determines a lot more about what you know than the fact you know how to find one answer, as does the fact you know more than one answer exists in some cases.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

You might want to review the NEC Article 100 definitions.

Grounding Electrode. A conducting object through which
a direct connection to earth is established.

Grounding Electrode Conductor. A conductor used to
connect the system grounded conductor or the equipment to
a grounding electrode or to a point on the grounding electrode
system.

You are referring to an EGC, not a GEC.

Grounding Conductor, Equipment (EGC). The conductive
path(s) installed to connect normally non–current-carrying
metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded
conductor or to the grounding electrode conductor, or both.




With all that experience, including 10 years in the IBEW, and you still get common terms confused?




Rather bold don't you think considering the above?

Excellent post.

Originally Posted by Derek Guridi

Excellent post.

have any of you worked on an electrical service from the service drop to a transformer to the main ditribution panel? Have you ever been ark flashed landing a ground to the neutral bar from following a persons work that never landed the ground to the XO at the transformer?

well I have, it was hot enough to blow an extra hole in the nuetral bar!

that is the potential of a flaoting neutral! and why I will always say the grounded condutor(nuetral) should not be the primary source to ground or the ground electrode. if the nuetral bar was grounded the nuetral would have been grounded and I wouldn't had metal drilled out of my eye.

never asume what you can't see.

NEC is minimul requirements, and when errors are found such as the alloy count on older aluminum wire, stab back/lock connectors producing higher resistance at contact points, or types of equipment that has been removed from production such as federal pacific panels( how many of those have you passed without telling the client they have been proven to not work properly, enough for the federal government to shut them down) these items or installation technics are never fixed or replaced, they are left for the owners to find out, some are found the hard way.

how many of you that inspect a home with alminum wire note an annual inspection on that service for maintaining the circuits and connections? thats in the NEC code book!

how many of you recomend a lightning arrester for metal roofs? they not required unless listed by state, BUT!!! they help reduce the conductive indifferance of a metal field to earth ground of the surrounding area.

speaking of lightning, homes on wells, do you check the tank (if metal) for ground? if the home is ran in a flex pvc/poly tube or none conductive material (except at the water heater for bond jumper if installed) what protects the plumbing from an electrical surge? copper has gotten expensive a lot of older homes have breaks in the copper lines from remodels and no bond jumper will be installed in that line.

HOW ABOUT THIS!! 1 in 7 families will be effected by an electrical malfunction this year, some will even lose loved ones from electricity. thats right over 450,000 homes will fave some form of an electrical malfuntion.

and I guarantee none will be from my work, can you guarantee none of your homes inspected by you haven't or won't have an electrical fire or malfuntion that will injur or kill a client?

so yes I will argue a 4 wire recept installed on an older service (Especially on an SE cable) would not provide proper protection of that circuit.

and yes a white wire landed under a breaker still needs to have an ELECTRICIAN ckeck those circuits.

Originally Posted by Norman Ellis

have any of you worked on an electrical service from the service drop to a transformer to the main ditribution panel? Have you ever been ark flashed landing a ground to the neutral bar from following a persons work that never landed the ground to the XO at the transformer?

well I have, it was hot enough to blow an extra hole in the nuetral bar!

that is the potential of a flaoting neutral! and why I will always say the grounded condutor(nuetral) should not be the primary source to ground or the ground electrode. if the nuetral bar was grounded the nuetral would have been grounded and I wouldn't had metal drilled out of my eye.

never asume what you can't see.

NEC is minimul requirements, and when errors are found such as the alloy count on older aluminum wire, stab back/lock connectors producing higher resistance at contact points, or types of equipment that has been removed from production such as federal pacific panels( how many of those have you passed without telling the client they have been proven to not work properly, enough for the federal government to shut them down) these items or installation technics are never fixed or replaced, they are left for the owners to find out, some are found the hard way.

how many of you that inspect a home with alminum wire note an annual inspection on that service for maintaining the circuits and connections? thats in the NEC code book!

how many of you recomend a lightning arrester for metal roofs? they not required unless listed by state, BUT!!! they help reduce the conductive indifferance of a metal field to earth ground of the surrounding area.

speaking of lightning, homes on wells, do you check the tank (if metal) for ground? if the home is ran in a flex pvc/poly tube or none conductive material (except at the water heater for bond jumper if installed) what protects the plumbing from an electrical surge? copper has gotten expensive a lot of older homes have breaks in the copper lines from remodels and no bond jumper will be installed in that line.

HOW ABOUT THIS!! 1 in 7 families will be effected by an electrical malfunction this year, some will even lose loved ones from electricity. thats right over 450,000 homes will fave some form of an electrical malfuntion.

and I guarantee none will be from my work, can you guarantee none of your homes inspected by you haven't or won't have an electrical fire or malfuntion that will injur or kill a client?

so yes I will argue a 4 wire recept installed on an older service (Especially on an SE cable) would not provide proper protection of that circuit.

and yes a white wire landed under a breaker still needs to have an ELECTRICIAN ckeck those circuits.

I am tired, so I will work through your bad grammar,capitalization, and punctuation tomorrow. Illiteracy is a pain to read at 2:45 AM.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Wrong, not all panels are listed for use with tandems.




You make posts where you say how safety conscious you are and how cautious people need to be around electric, but here you are telling people how to attempt to circumvent the rules? WTH? There are probably many soil types where even wetting the soil would not get you below 25 ohms. Given the cost of both the testing equipment and the time to test and show the inspector it is easier and more cost effective to drive a second rod and be done with it.




Show us the code prohibitions against panels in kitchens, bedrooms or within 6' of running water.

Electrical panels are commonly installed in closets especially in commercial work. The prohibition is they cannot be near easily ignited materials and the workspace requirements are needed.



Wrong again, the Class A GFI trip level is 4-6 mA.




The return current is not going to ground. It is going to its' source, ie the transformer. The range circuit would not have a ground electrode conductor. Grounding electrode conductors go from the panel to an electrode like a rod or plate as was pointed out above. You are confusing GEC's with EGC's. Same letters, different order, but a world of difference in function. To borrow someone elses words, differences with a distinction.

OK! if the return current is going to the transformer, than it is the grounded conductor not the ground (by the way in theory the current and nuetral should zero out at point of use). so how can a 4 wire recept landed in a main distribution panel with no GEC landed on the neutral bar be properly protected? the recept is installed with intention of the ground and neutral containing the ability of seperate paths. One to close or carry return path of energy, the other to take path in case of a malfunction or path is interrupted by a conductive or non grounded source to earths ground.

Originally Posted by Norman Ellis

OK! if the return current is going to the transformer, than it is the grounded conductor not the ground (by the way in theory the current and nuetral should zero out at point of use). so how can a 4 wire recept landed in a main distribution panel with no GEC landed on the neutral bar be properly protected? the recept is installed with intention of the ground and neutral containing the ability of seperate paths. One to close or carry return path of energy, the other to take path in case of a malfunction or path is interrupted by a conductive or non grounded source to earths ground.

Are saying the earth/dirt GEC/electrode can clear a fault?

Originally Posted by Derek Guridi

Are saying the earth/dirt GEC/electrode can clear a fault?

NO!!! I'm saying it takes the energy to earth, A fault or trip will disrupted electrical flow, but the unused energy has to go some where!, that is why you have the ground electrode and grounded circuits tied into the earth.

what was the main purpose of developing the 4 wire recepticle? SO THE NUETRAL WAS NOT GROUND SOURCE TO APPLIANCES

if you see a metal cover on a recept do you check to see if the box is plastic or metal? using a metal cover on a plastic box or ungrounded box has potential to expose electrical energy to the occupent. think about it!! the hot wire makes contact to a conductive source and the person leaning on an appliance with a live conductor in use will get shocked when they touch the cover if not grounded.

Originally Posted by Norman Ellis

NO!!! I'm saying it takes the energy to earth, A fault or trip will disrupted electrical flow, but the unused energy has to go some where!, that is why you have the ground electrode and grounded circuits tied into the earth.

what was the main purpose of developing the 4 wire recepticle? SO THE NUETRAL WAS NOT GROUND SOURCE TO APPLIANCES

if you see a metal cover on a recept do you check to see if the box is plastic or metal? using a metal cover on a plastic box or ungrounded box has potential to expose electrical energy to the occupent. think about it!! the hot wire makes contact to a conductive source and the person leaning on an appliance with a live conductor in use will get shocked when they touch the cover if not grounded.

Pay attention: V= I x R
Average R for a GES = 100+ ohms
I = V/R
I = 120v/100 ohms
I =1.2 amps
You need between 5 and 6 ohms for a GES for a 20 amp breaker to trip at 120 volts.

You are clueless.

Originally Posted by Norman Ellis

NO!!! I'm saying it takes the energy to earth, A fault or trip will disrupted electrical flow, but the unused energy has to go some where!, that is why you have the ground electrode and grounded circuits tied into the earth.

Again you are continuing to confuse the difference between a GEC and an EGC. Read what the NEC says the purpose of the GEC system is intended for. What do you think the purpose of the bond screw or strap is? The fault current needs to get back to its source, not the earth.

(1) Electrical System Grounding. Electrical systems that
are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that
will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or
unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will
stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation.

Do you realize that a breaker will trip if there is a short to the EGC or neutral and there is no rod? Have you done the math that Derek asked for?

(5) Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. Electrical equipment
and wiring and other electrically conductive material
likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that
creates a low-impedance circuit facilitating the operation of
the overcurrent device or ground detector for high-impedance
grounded systems. It shall be capable of safely carrying the
maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from
any point on the wiring system where a ground fault may
occur to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be
considered as an effective ground-fault current path.

Originally Posted by Norman Ellis

have any of you worked on an electrical service from the service drop to a transformer to the main ditribution panel? Have you ever been ark flashed landing a ground to the neutral bar from following a persons work that never landed the ground to the XO at the transformer?

well I have, it was hot enough to blow an extra hole in the nuetral bar!

Why were you working on energized electrical equipment?

how many of you that inspect a home with alminum wire note an annual inspection on that service for maintaining the circuits and connections? thats in the NEC code book!

Can you site this requirement?

speaking of lightning, homes on wells, do you check the tank (if metal) for ground? if the home is ran in a flex pvc/poly tube or none conductive material (except at the water heater for bond jumper if installed) what protects the plumbing from an electrical surge?

How is an isolated tank becoming energized?

and I guarantee none will be from my work, can you guarantee none of your homes inspected by you haven't or won't have an electrical fire or malfuntion that will injur or kill a client?

Given the lack of understanding of electrical systems that might be a hard claim to backup.

so yes I will argue a 4 wire recept installed on an older service (Especially on an SE cable) would not provide proper protection of that circuit.

Why would a service fed with SE lack anything needed and how would it affect a 4 wire receptacle? Remember that breakers will trip without a grounding electrode. Or are you confusing the service with a 3 wire branch circuit fed with SE cable?

Originally Posted by Derek Guridi

Pay attention: V= I x R
Average R for a GES = 100+ ohms
I = V/R
I = 120v/100 ohms
I =1.2 amps
You need between 5 and 6 ohms for a GES for a 20 amp breaker to trip at 120 volts.

You are clueless.

were did I say amps/ohms/ or even voltage??? I said path interuption,fault, trip. But ok the only reason the neutral has a lower resistance is from the path of voltage, ground is a dead wire. so voltage is lost were is the resistance level than on that branch circuit neutral? in theory all unused power will travel back to the nuetral bar by path in circuit under normal use(while having voltage) but not when it is disrupted/intercepted pass the point of demand, nor will it cause the circuit to fault, that is why the ground can be used to close/complete/produce usible electricity with earths ground, you charge the ground with voltage the resistance is equal to a neutral.

take a light socket, pig tail it with the hot landed to 120V power leg, than touch the neutral wire to earth the bulb will light!

the reason I even mention the ground "IS" the ground wire's live with voltage and there goes your 5<6 ohms to trip the breaker, but it carrys current and is exposed to contact through the length of that circuit.

Originally Posted by Norman Ellis

were did I say amps/ohms/ or even voltage??? I said path interuption,fault, trip. But ok the only reason the neutral has a lower resistance is from the path of voltage, ground is a dead wire. so voltage is lost were is the resistance level than on that branch circuit neutral? in theory all unused power will travel back to the nuetral bar by path in circuit under normal use(while having voltage) but not when it is disrupted/intercepted pass the point of demand, nor will it cause the circuit to fault, that is why the ground can be used to close/complete/produce usible electricity with earths ground, you charge the ground with voltage the resistance is equal to a neutral.

take a light socket, pig tail it with the hot landed to 120V power leg, than touch the neutral wire to earth the bulb will light!

the reason I even mention the ground "IS" the ground wire's live with voltage and there goes your 5<6 ohms to trip the breaker, but it carrys current and is exposed to contact through the length of that circuit.

Norman, I copied the following info from post 36 of this thread from another forum I belong to. You really need to read the following info and absorb it

Frequently Asked 2005 NEC Questions - Page 4

Grounding Vs. Bonding
The Big Picture

• What is “grounding”? What is “bonding”? What’s the difference?

Grounding and bonding is probably the most discussed issue here, aside from 210.52’s design requirements.

The terms are defined in Article 100 and 250.2 of the NEC. Section 250.4 provides the performance requirements of Article 250. Grounding is a connection to earth, and bonding is the connection of items to each other.

Bonding is crucial inside a structure, because without it, if something goes wrong and an ungrounded conductor comes in contact with a piece of metal that someone can touch, that someone will receive a shock and potentially be electrocuted due to the uncleared fault. A quick and dirty definition for bonding is connecting electrical devices together in the attempt to trip a breaker, if an ungrounded conductor touches surface metal associated with the system.

What does the earth have to do with this? Nothing.

Then why is it called an “Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC)” in the NEC if it’s primary purpose is to “bond” things together? Simple answer: tradition. It’s always been called that, and the terms in the NEC have served to confuse people for a long time. Proposals have been made to change the term, and progress has been made, but the EGC continues to hold it’s misnomer.

Electricity does not seek the path of least resistance to the earth. It seeks all available paths back to it’s source, in proportion to their resistance. The reason that a person gets shocked when touching an ungrounded conductor and the earth is because the neutral of the system is repeatedly connected to earth in a grounded electrical system. The earth becomes part of a return path to the transformer – it’s part of one route back to the source; the earth is not the destination for the electricity.

Driving a ground rod to ‘ground’ any electrical equipment does not provide the low-resistance path required to trip breakers. Driving a ground rod, or using a Ufer, or a metal water pipe is not a substitute for an EGC. A ground rod with 25 ohms to earth will allow almost five amps to escape the system into the earth when directly energized from a 120V source. Five amps will never trip a 15A or 20A breaker, and in the meantime everything bonded to this ground rod will be energized to 120V.

Bob Ludecke has created a powerpoint presentation under the 2002 cycle, and has granted permission for a link to be posted for download. Chris Knight has graciously provided a site for downloading the presentation:
Bob Ludecke's Grounding Presentation

Thanks to both Chris and Bob for their help on this very important topic!

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If any of the items discussed here does not make sense to you, or if you disagree, please start a thread publicly or send a private message to me to discuss it privately, if you desire. It is critical that this issue be understood to ensure the safety of everyone involved.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Why were you working on energized electrical equipment?




Can you site this requirement?




How is an isolated tank becoming energized?

the tank is isolated from the electrical service not a lightning strike.

the water will carry the current of a lightning strike into the plumbing, why do you bond the water/plumbing? what is the first item past the inlet valve on a well system? if you bond a water heater that is past the water inlet valve but before the water heater the tank (if metal) should be bonded true it isn't required in the NEC code book but the water/plumbing system is required to be bonded.

Given the lack of understanding of electrical systems that might be a hard claim to backup.



Why would a service fed with SE lack anything needed and how would it affect a 4 wire receptacle? Remember that breakers will trip without a grounding electrode. Or are you confusing the service with a 3 wire branch circuit fed with SE cable?

I feel SE is reduced in providing a safe path for electricity. as mentioned the nuetral can be a bare conductor in SE cable, on a surface mount installation minimul damage can expose electricity, I think all service feeders should be insulated conductors. using SE on range runs is questionable on providing a safe circuit path. Disagree all you want, I have and will replace an SE cable service on any home I own, a rigid conduit riser, a secured insulater, an obvious drip loop and a fused (600V) disconnect grounded to a 5/8" 10' ground rod to reduce the chance of a energy surge from the power grid.

Originally Posted by Norman Ellis

take a light socket, pig tail it with the hot landed to 120V power leg, than touch the neutral wire to earth the bulb will light!

I hope you don't expect anything more than a nightlight glow, if you even get that much.

Do yourself a favor and read through the link Derek just posted above. It should greatly increase your understanding of grounding, bonding and system operations.

Originally Posted by Norman Ellis

I feel SE is reduced in providing a safe path for electricity. as mentioned the nuetral can be a bare conductor in SE cable, on a surface mount installation minimul damage can expose electricity, I think all service feeders should be insulated conductors. using SE on range runs is questionable on providing a safe circuit path. Disagree all you want, I have and will replace an SE cable service on any home I own, a rigid conduit riser, a secured insulater, an obvious drip loop and a fused (600V) disconnect grounded to a 5/8" 10' ground rod to reduce the chance of a energy surge from the power grid.

Your theory about cable damage totally ignores the Code prohibition about using that wiring method where subject to damage.

BTW, you still have not provided the code sites that have been requested. To recap, panels in kitchens, bedrooms or within 6' of running water; annual inspection of aluminum terminations. You also ignored why you would advise someone to take shortcuts by wetting the ground around a rod in order to pass inspection.

Originally Posted by Norman Ellis

were did I say amps/ohms/ or even voltage??? I said path interuption,fault, trip. But ok the only reason the neutral has a lower resistance is from the path of voltage, ground is a dead wire. so voltage is lost were is the resistance level than on that branch circuit neutral? in theory all unused power will travel back to the nuetral bar by path in circuit under normal use(while having voltage) but not when it is disrupted/intercepted pass the point of demand, nor will it cause the circuit to fault, that is why the ground can be used to close/complete/produce usible electricity with earths ground, you charge the ground with voltage the resistance is equal to a neutral.

take a light socket, pig tail it with the hot landed to 120V power leg, than touch the neutral wire to earth the bulb will light!

the reason I even mention the ground "IS" the ground wire's live with voltage and there goes your 5<6 ohms to trip the breaker, but it carrys current and is exposed to contact through the length of that circuit.

Derek was trying to show you the math and how the rod had nothing to due with clearing a fault and tripping the breaker. There is too much resistance in the earth.

Forget it Jim, dude is clueless.

I am going to go argue with JP.

Originally Posted by Norman Ellis

I feel SE is reduced in providing a safe path for electricity. as mentioned the nuetral can be a bare conductor in SE cable, on a surface mount installation minimul damage can expose electricity, I think all service feeders should be insulated conductors. using SE on range runs is questionable on providing a safe circuit path. Disagree all you want, I have and will replace an SE cable service on any home I own, a rigid conduit riser, a secured insulater, an obvious drip loop and a fused (600V) disconnect grounded to a 5/8" 10' ground rod to reduce the chance of a energy surge from the power grid.

I was thinking 51 cards. Now I'm thinking like 43 or something........

Where is the ungrounded "neutral" conductor from the line side?

Originally Posted by Derek Guridi

Forget it Jim, dude is clueless.

I am going to go argue with JP.

Derek,

No argument here from me, I already pegged him as clueless a while back.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Derek,

No argument here from me, I already pegged him as clueless a while back.

I know, I meant the SABC thread.