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  1. #1
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    Default Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    When was a "dedicated" kitchen circuit first required? Some info I have says 1959. The problem is a neighbor selling house built in 1990. The dining room receptacles are wired with 12ga and on the same 20 Amp circuit as the kitchen. When they bought the house, there wasn't a GFCI in the kitchen period. One was added to the circuit when they bought the house in 2006. A home inspector tripped the kitchen GFCI and found that the dining room receptacles were off and went back on when the GFCI was reset.Said it was illegal.

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    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks View Post
    When was a "dedicated" kitchen circuit first required? Some info I have says 1959. The problem is a neighbor selling house built in 1990. The dining room receptacles are wired with 12ga and on the same 20 Amp circuit as the kitchen. When they bought the house, there wasn't a GFCI in the kitchen period. One was added to the circuit when they bought the house in 2006. A home inspector tripped the kitchen GFCI and found that the dining room receptacles were off and went back on when the GFCI was reset.Said it was illegal.
    Hi Stuart,

    Unfortunately, my NEC collection only goes back as far as 1965 (below) and then jumps to 1999. Also unfortunately, I am unable to tell if this means that each room is required to have two 20 ampere circuit or if the entire group of rooms is required to have two 20 ampere circuits. I rather doubt it is the former, as I cannot imagine the need for two 20 ampere circuits in the dining room.

    If I read it correctly, it is OK. Of course, this is beyond the scope of a home inspection and unlikely to be found, except by accident. The other consideration would be; is it hazardous? Unless JP or HG comes up with a potential hazard, I cannot see it as much of an issue.

    (From the 1965 NEC)
    Article 220-3 (b) Receptacle circuits, Dwelling Occupancies
    For the small appliance load in kitchen, laundry, pantry, family room, dining room and breakfast room of dwelling occupancies, two or more 20 ampere branch circuits in addition to the branch circuits specified in Section 220-3(a) shall be provided for all receptacle outlets in these rooms, and such circuits shall have no other outlets.
    Receptacle outlets supplied by at least two appliance receptacle branch circuits shall be installed in the kitchen.

    (From the 1999 NEC)
    210-11(c) Dwelling Units.
    (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits.
    In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by Section 210-52(b).

    210-52. (b) Small Appliances.
    (1) In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by Section 210-11(c)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by Sections 210-52(a) and (c) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

    Of course, I could very well have just looked up something irrelevant.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks View Post
    When was a "dedicated" kitchen circuit first required? Some info I have says 1959.
    1959 NEC
    220-3 b Receptacle Circuits, Dwelling Occupancies
    For the small appliance load in kitchen, laundry, pantry, dining room and breakfast room of dwelling occupancies, two or more 20 ampere branch circuits in addition to the branch circuits specified in Paragraph 220-3 (a or b) shall be provided for all receptacle outlets (other than outlets for clocks) in these rooms, and such circuits shall have no other outlets.

    Alton Darty
    ATN Services, LLC
    www.arinspections.com

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    (bold and underlining is mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alton Darty View Post
    1959 NEC
    220-3 b Receptacle Circuits, Dwelling Occupancies
    For the small appliance load in kitchen, laundry, pantry, dining room and breakfast room of dwelling occupancies, two or more 20 ampere branch circuits in addition to the branch circuits specified in Paragraph 220-3 (a or b) shall be provided for all receptacle outlets (other than outlets for clocks) in these rooms, and such circuits shall have no other outlets.
    Which means that the receptacle outlets in the dining room may be on the kitchen circuits.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    (bold and underlining is mine)


    Which means that the receptacle outlets in the dining room may be on the kitchen circuits.
    Thanks Jerry, thats the way that I read this one. I was hoping that you would provide some commentary on this article.

    Alton Darty
    ATN Services, LLC
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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Stuart, the other inspector was incorrect as others have shown the code that allows the DR receptacles to be fed from one of the kitchen small appliance branch circuits. You could also install another 20 amp SABC for the dining receptacles but it is not required.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Stuart, the other inspector was incorrect as others have shown the code that allows the DR receptacles to be fed from one of the kitchen small appliance branch circuits. You could also install another 20 amp SABC for the dining receptacles but it is not required.
    Hey Jim.

    A lot of ECs seem to run a separate SABC because of AFCI.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Stuart, the other inspector was incorrect as others have shown the code that allows the DR receptacles to be fed from one of the kitchen small appliance branch circuits. You could also install another 20 amp SABC for the dining receptacles but it is not required.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    Hey Jim.

    A lot of ECs seem to run a separate SABC because of AFCI.
    The dining room does not, as Jim pointed out, require a small appliance branch circuit (SABC). The easy way to solve the SABC on a GFCI and AFCI is to just not run one into the dining room/living room/etc.

    You can wire all the receptacles in a house as 20 amp and not have them be SABC, so, if you want a 20 amp branch circuit going into the living room for the entertainment center, do so, and it goes on an AFCI, no GFCI required.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    There is supposed to be no problem with a GFI device on an AFCI protected circuit.

    The dining room does not, as Jim pointed out, require a small appliance branch circuit (SABC).
    Jerry, it might be helpful to say it does not require a separate 20 amp circuit and being fed from either or both of the kitchen SABC is allowed. The first time I read this I took what you said as the DR receptacles did not need to be part of the 20 amp kitchen circuit. Perhaps we are both saying the same thing, just different wording.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Wait... Does this mean I got it right? Maybe I'm getting the hang of this code thing.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The dining room does not, as Jim pointed out, require a small appliance branch circuit (SABC). The easy way to solve the SABC on a GFCI and AFCI is to just not run one into the dining room/living room/etc.

    You can wire all the receptacles in a house as 20 amp and not have them be SABC, so, if you want a 20 amp branch circuit going into the living room for the entertainment center, do so, and it goes on an AFCI, no GFCI required.

    Not quite. A separate 20 amp circuit to the dining room is a SABC. SABC do not require GFCI protection. What is required is to be GFCI protected is the counter top receptacles and they have to be on a SABC.

    If there is a wet bar in the dining room all receptacles within 6" require GFCI protection.

    Also, a SABC cannot go to a living room.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    There is supposed to be no problem with a GFI device on an AFCI protected circuit.
    That is what I've heard and read too.

    Jerry, it might be helpful to say it does not require a separate 20 amp circuit and being fed from either or both of the kitchen SABC is allowed. The first time I read this I took what you said as the DR receptacles did not need to be part of the 20 amp kitchen circuit. Perhaps we are both saying the same thing, just different wording.
    Actually, I am trying to say that one or more of the dining room receptacles 'may be on the kitchen small appliance branch circuit', or they 'may be wired completely separate from the kitchen small appliance branch circuit', and that 'every receptacle in the house could be on a 20 amp circuit and those circuits would not be considered to be small appliance branch circuits'.

    Not sure if I worded that any better?

    I think we are saying the same thing to a point, then I am adding additional information.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    Not quite. A separate 20 amp circuit to the dining room is a SABC. SABC do not require GFCI protection. What is required is to be GFCI protected is the counter top receptacles and they have to be on a SABC.

    If there is a wet bar in the dining room all receptacles within 6" require GFCI protection.

    Also, a SABC cannot go to a living room.
    Are you telling me that I am not allowed to run a 20 amp circuit to the living room, or bedrooms, or den, or ... ?

    And that every 20 amp circuit I run to those other rooms *are* SABC?

    Please explain and provide code sections.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Are you telling me that I am not allowed to run a 20 amp circuit to the living room, or bedrooms, or den, or ... ?

    And that every 20 amp circuit I run to those other rooms *are* SABC?

    Please explain and provide code sections.
    Silly, I am not saying that every 20 amp circuit is a SABC. I am saying that that receptacles in a dining room are a SABC. Whether they are on the same circuit as the counter top or not is a design choice. I could have 20 SABC in the kitchen and as long as 2 hit the counters, I am legal.

    210.11(C) Dwelling Units.
    (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the
    number of branch circuits required by other parts of this
    section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits
    shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by
    210.52(B).

    210.52(B) Small Appliances.
    (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
    unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
    circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
    floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
    outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
    refrigeration equipment.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks View Post
    When was a "dedicated" kitchen circuit first required? Some info I have says 1959. The problem is a neighbor selling house built in 1990. The dining room receptacles are wired with 12ga and on the same 20 Amp circuit as the kitchen. When they bought the house, there wasn't a GFCI in the kitchen period. One was added to the circuit when they bought the house in 2006. A home inspector tripped the kitchen GFCI and found that the dining room receptacles were off and went back on when the GFCI was reset.Said it was illegal.
    Back to the original question..........

    As others have said, nothing is wrong with what you are describing. The home inspector is wrong and he/she needs to know they provided the wrong information in their report. Tell your neighbor that they need to tell the inspector to provide a cite to back-up what they reported. Also if that inspector actually used the term "illegal" chances are that they have over reported or misstated a few other items in the report.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Thanks gentlemen. The inspector in question is a part timer. The rest of the time he's a fireman in another county. The buyer didn't make it an issue. The "inspector" also ran water in every tub, sink, & shower for 2 hours. He said if there was a leak, a water stain would show up. Didn't have a moisture tester. The house ha been occupied since 1990. Think a leak would manifest by then. Oh yes, he gives a 100 day guarantee on his inspection.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    Silly, I am not saying that every 20 amp circuit is a SABC. I am saying that that receptacles in a dining room are a SABC. Whether they are on the same circuit as the counter top or not is a design choice. I could have 20 SABC in the kitchen and as long as 2 hit the counters, I am legal.

    210.11(C) Dwelling Units.
    (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the
    number of branch circuits required by other parts of this
    section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits
    shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by
    210.52(B).

    210.52(B) Small Appliances.
    (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
    unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
    circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
    floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
    outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
    refrigeration equipment.

    And you skipped over 210.52 and 210.52(A) for what reason?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    And you skipped over 210.52 and 210.52(A) for what reason?
    I can post the whole NEC if you want. Make your point.

    Is a circuit in the dining room a SABC or not?


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    I can post the whole NEC if you want. Make your point.

    Is a circuit in the dining room a SABC or not?
    The 20 amp circuit to the dining room is *not automatically* considered to be a small appliance branch circuit, it may simply be a multi-outlet circuit for general use installed in accordance with:

    (bold and underlining are mine)
    - 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
    - - This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
    - - - (1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
    - - - (2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
    - - - (3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
    - - - (4) Located more than 1.7 m (5˝ ft) above the floor
    - - Permanently installed electric baseboard heaters equipped with factory-installed receptacle outlets or outlets provided as a separate assembly by the manufacturer shall be permitted as the required outlet or outlets for the wall space utilized by such permanently installed heaters. Such receptacle outlets shall not be connected to the heater circuits.
    - - - FPN: Listed baseboard heaters include instructions that may not permit their installation below receptacle outlets.
    - - (A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3).
    - - - (1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
    - - - (2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
    - - - - (1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
    - - - - (2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels
    - - - - (3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings
    - - - (3) Floor Receptacles. Receptacle outlets in floors shall not be counted as part of the required number of receptacle outlets unless located within 450 mm (18 in.) of the wall.

    - 210.11 Branch Circuits Required.
    - - (C) Dwelling Units.
    - - - (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

    - 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
    - - (B) Small Appliances.
    - - - (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
    - - - - Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
    Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
    - - - (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
    - - - - Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
    - - - - Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.
    - - - (3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.

    So ... I ask you again ... is it your position that ALL the 20 ampere receptacles in the "kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area" are required to be small appliance branch circuits?

    Are you also telling me that every "kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area" requires two or more small appliance branch circuits?

    You have not answered that, and, as you consider your answer, consider the code I posted above (and below):
    - 210.11 Branch Circuits Required.
    - - (C) Dwelling Units.
    - - - (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section ...

    I await your answer.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The 20 amp circuit to the dining room is *not automatically* considered to be a small appliance branch circuit, it may simply be a multi-outlet circuit for general use installed in accordance with:


    So ... I ask you again ... is it your position that ALL the 20 ampere receptacles in the "kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area" are required to be small appliance branch circuits?

    Nope, just the required ones serving the wall spaces and counter tops.

    Are you also telling me that every "kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area" requires two or more small appliance branch circuits?

    Nope, two only for serving all the required ones in all the areas would work, I will even let you put the fridge on one of them.

    I await your answer.
    The required wall and counter top receptacles in the other specified areas are all SABCs.

    For example, Can I put a general purpose 15 amp circuit to a counter top if I have the two 20 amp ones already?


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    "
    So ... I ask you again ... is it your position that ALL the 20 ampere receptacles in the "kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area" are required to be small appliance branch circuits?

    Nope, just the required ones serving the wall spaces and counter tops.

    Are you also telling me that every "kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area" requires two or more small appliance branch circuits?

    Nope, two only for serving all the required ones in all the areas would work, I will even let you put the fridge on one of them.

    "

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    The required wall and counter top receptacles in the other specified areas are all SABCs.
    Okay ... what walls spaces in a dining room are *required* to have SABC?

    In *addition to* the general use receptacles.

    Are you saying (I keep trying to get you to answer this) that EVERY 20 amp circuit I put in a dining room IS REQUIRED to be a SABC? That I cannot run a 20 amp general purpose circuit to the living room, dining room, breakfast room, family room - that ALL of those circuits ARE REQUIRED to be considered SABC?

    That is the question I keep asking and you keep *not* answering. You are dancing around the bush, that is for sure, but you are *not* answering it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    What do you define as a SABC?

    Why does a dining room have to be on a 20 amp circuit?

    If you have a counter top in a dining room, does it need receptacles? Is this a SABC?

    If I run a circuit just for the wall receptacles in the kitchen and and dining room, why does it have to be on a 20 amp circuit?


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "

    "



    Okay ... what walls spaces in a dining room are *required* to have SABC?

    In *addition to* the general use receptacles.

    Are you saying (I keep trying to get you to answer this) that EVERY 20 amp circuit I put in a dining room IS REQUIRED to be a SABC? That I cannot run a 20 amp general purpose circuit to the living room, dining room, breakfast room, family room - that ALL of those circuits ARE REQUIRED to be considered SABC?


    Yes. That receptacle circuit is a SABC.

    That is the question I keep asking and you keep *not* answering. You are dancing around the bush, that is for sure, but you are *not* answering it.
    I have answered you. The wall receptacles in the dining area are a SABC. That is why they are on a 20 amp circuit.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    I have answered you. The wall receptacles in the dining area are a SABC. That is why they are on a 20 amp circuit.
    There are exceptions for wall receptacles in a dining room not to be on a SABC, therefore not all dining room receptacles are necessarily SBACs.

    BUT........
    210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
    (B) Small Appliances.
    (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
    unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
    circuits
    required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve ALL wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
    outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
    refrigeration equipment.


    (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance
    branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no
    other outlets.
    This means they can't serve rooms other than those specified

    A refrigerator receptacle doesn't need to be on a SABC because of an exception, nor does a switched receptacle for lighting purposes. Same rules apply in a kitchen. Frige has a special rule though.

    The rest have to be SABCs though, either separate or an extension from the kitchen SABCs kitchen and the circuits can't leave the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar areas, no general use receptacles allowed except the switched one(s)

    Not much room to wiggle here

    The intent is that things like waffle irons, coffee pots, various warmers and such will be used in a dining room and the circuits are sized to handle them separately from other general use circuits in the house. Dining room circuits are small appliance branch circuits, and if separate from the kitchen SABCs must be accounted for in load calculations. With many AHJs limiting how many receptacles can be on a SABCs this can be an issue


    Last edited by Bill Kriegh; 10-10-2011 at 12:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance
    branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no
    other outlets. This means they can't serve rooms other than those specified
    Wrong. "or similar areas"!

    A refrigerator receptacle doesn't need to be on a SABC because of an exception,
    You are confusing and muddling requirements and exceptions for GFCI protection and small appliance branch circuits. Most refrigerator/freezers employed in residential kitchens may NOT be powered upon a shared (other outlets) small appliance branch circuit, in fact many require a individual branch circuit, those which do not, oftentimes require a dedicated one, one with limited other "outlets" not necessarily receptacles (sharing, 50% & 80% rules). Several can be supplied with a dedicated 15A @ 80%, some drawer units can be shared only with themselves on a dedicated 20A circuit, dedicated only to these appliances which are fixed in place.

    nor does a switched receptacle for lighting purposes. Same rules apply in a kitchen. Frige has a special rule though.

    The rest have to be SABCs though, either separate or an extension from the kitchen SABCs kitchen and the circuits can't leave the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar areas, no general use receptacles allowed except the switched one(s)

    Not much room to wiggle here

    The intent is that things like waffle irons, coffee pots, various warmers and such will be used in a dining room and the circuits are sized to handle them separately from other general use circuits in the house. Dining room circuits are small appliance branch circuits, and if separate from the kitchen SABCs must be accounted for in load calculations. With many AHJs limiting how many receptacles can be on a SABCs this can be an issue
    Not quite.

    The restriction is that no small appliance branch circuit may have an outlet in more than one "kitchen" (210.52(B)3), not that the SABC outlets be confined to THE kitchen itself!

    There is no requirement for either required small appliance branch circuit present and serving countertop receptacles in the kitchen to have no other non-switched not fixed SMALL APPLIANCE RECEPTACLE outlets in any other room or area of the home which are 20 amp small appliance receptacles.

    The SA circut which supplies "outlets" in A kitchen are not limited to THE kitchen! They can be in the dinning room, pantry, breakfast nook, etc. ("OR SIMILAR AREAS" such as a theater room or family room snack counter, etc.). They MUST, however, not be other than "small appliance RECEPTACLE outlets"(exceptions noted such as kitchen clock, etc.), IN the dwelling unit, and not be otherwise required to be on another specified or type of circuit, or otherwise restricted to be upon same. such as a lighting outlet, a switched receptacle, fixed equipment fastened in place (exceptions noted, still not exceeding 50%), laundry areas, bathroom areas, lighting or fixed transformers, etc.; and IF a Small Appliance branch circuit has an "outlet" in one kitchen, it may not have an "outlet" in another kitchen.

    Neither does Small appliance branch circuit equate to GFCI protection.

    The "dedication" is to the "small appliance receptacle function only type "outlet" IN the dwelling unit" and to NOT be supplying where a required specified, dedicated or individual circuit is otherwise specified. Furthermore the dedication of ONE kitchen per SA circuit limit outlets to the kitchen itself. This is where the NEC definition of what IS and IS NOT a kitchen comes into play. Simply not more than one "kitchen".

    You can have a dwelling with small appliance receptacles at the countertops in one kitchen, dinning room SA receptacles, family room, breakfast nook, even a coffee counter alcove in the Master bedroom - all on two only SA circuits as long as receptacles at the kitchen countertop areas are powered by both SA circuits (not every area powered by both - just one receptacle at one countertop is required to be powered by the "other" SA circuit). and there is no outlet from either SA circuit powering an outlet in ANOTHER "kitchen". I'm not saying that its good design practice to do it, only that it is legal in a residence, in the unammended NEC.

    There is no requirement that THE two minimum SA circuits required to power KITCHEN countertops be limited to outlets IN THE KITCHEN, nor that all SA receptacle outlets be GFCI protected. The limitation is that a particular SA branch circuit may have outlets in ONE kitchen. The outlets are NOT limited only to kitchen areas, just ONE kitchen amognst the room areas served and that the "outlets" be Small appliance receptacle outlets, and the specific exceptions noted (such as no general lighting, etc.). There is also no requirement that SA receptacle outlets be limited to the "specified" or specifically named room areas - there is no such specification. The "or similar areas" covers "similar areas", i.e. those desiring or requirng a small appliance receptacle, in a "similar areas".

    The one kitchen area is for "units" which have more than one qualifying NEC defined "kitchen".

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-10-2011 at 08:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    First we have someone that doesn't understand the difference between EGC and GEC, now we have someone trying to say a master bedroom is a "similar area" as a kitchen/dining room.

    Except for a built-in Sub Zero refrigerator, I have yet to see a refrigerator that called for a dedicated circuit or whatever the hell a "limited" circuit is. In a survey at my house the 18 cubic foot is 7.1 amps and the newer 26 foot is 6.5 amps. Clearly either could be supplied from the SABC within the limits of the NEC.


    Quote:
    A refrigerator receptacle doesn't need to be on a SABC because of an exception,
    You are confusing and muddling requirements and exceptions for GFCI protection and small appliance branch circuits. Most refrigerator/freezers employed in residential kitchens may NOT be powered upon a small appliance branch circuit, in fact most require an individual branch circuit, those which do not, oftentimes require a dedicated one, or one with limited other "outlets" not necessarily receptacles (sharing, 50% & 80% rules). Several can be supplied with a dedicated 15A @ 80%, some drawer units can be shared 2 on a dedicated 20A.
    There is no confusion. There is an exception that allows the refrigerator to be supplied from one of the SABC or 'Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual
    branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Still can't grasp the distinction between between "individual branch circuit" and what "dedicated" does and does not mean, can you?

    A "coffee bar", even a wet bar with or without refrigeration equipment distinctively separate from a bathroom area en suite is not a bedroom area nor is it an NEC defined kitchen and still requires small appliance branch circuit outlets.

    There is no restriction or prohibition from providing afci protection to a small appliance branch circuit, there is no requirement to have all small appliance branch circuit outlets provided with GFCI protection.

    Dedicated as to purpose - i.e. small appliance outlets. Not dedicated to kitchen, not dedicated to countertops, not dedicated to a particular room.

    Can be dedicated or limited to particular locations, number of outlets, specific equipment - such is a design consideration not an NEC requirement.

    Each and every listed refrigerator, freezer, or combination refrigerator which is listed as being "recommended" to be on an INDIVIDUAL branch circuit of such and such amps (15 or 20) can in certain conditions exceed the 50/80% rule. Hence the manufacturer's and the listing standard's required (required by the listing standard) "recommendation" or "SHOULD" language. The equipment manufacturer has no power of law to issue an edict containing "SHALL" language. Neither the Standard authoring body, standards by the way are VOLUNTARY as to participation, the NTL, nor the manufacturer hold the power of LAW. The model NEC language requires that equipment be utilized, installed, etc. under itself and its listing and mfg instructions - but also provides for other engineered and designed "additional" or better than minimum. The NEC makes the mfg "recommendations" the mfg "SHOULDs" and the listed equipment's Standards' "SHOULDs" upgraded to SHALLs and SHALL NOTs as MINIMUM requirements when they exceed requirements otherwise provided for in the NEC.

    Define "individual".

    Define "dedicated". Cite use of the term "dedicated" in the NEC - as used in the NEC it has SEVERAL used, none of which limit to ONLY "Individual".


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    There is a blurb in the NEC that says that it is not a manual for untrained persons. Watson has proved yet again that he doesn't understand whats printed in plain English -either that part or the one about SABCs.

    The NEC says refrigeration equipment may be on a small appliance circuit or that it can be on a dedicated circuit specifically for refrigeration equipment. This IMPLYS that you can't run a general use circuit into the room to use for the purpose.

    Similar areas means those used specifically for the storage or preparation of food, not living rooms or bedrooms which is why the list says similar areas at the end of a list that starts with kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, and dining room. If these circuits were permitted in other areas there would be no reason to differentiate between SABCs and general use circuits.

    Maybe an E-mail to the NEC folks for clarification is in order by some folks, followed by some time at a code seminar or two. D*mn, a bedroom isn't a food prep area. Are you REALLY that dense?


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post

    A "coffee bar", even a wet bar with or without refrigeration equipment distinctively separate from a bathroom area en suite is not a bedroom area nor is it an NEC defined kitchen and still requires small appliance branch circuit outlets.
    If this circuit is not in one of the areas defined in 210.52(A),(B),(C) as required by 210.11(C) -----it is not a SABC.

    Plugging a small appliance into a circuit does not make it a SABC.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post

    A "coffee bar", even a wet bar with or without refrigeration equipment distinctively separate from a bathroom area en suite is not a bedroom area nor is it an NEC defined kitchen and still requires small appliance branch circuit outlets.
    Prove this with the actual NEC requirement.


    Each and every listed refrigerator, freezer, or combination refrigerator which is listed as being "recommended" to be on an INDIVIDUAL branch circuit of such and such amps (15 or 20) can in certain conditions exceed the 50/80% rule. Hence the manufacturer's and the listing standard's required (required by the listing standard) "recommendation" or "SHOULD" language. The equipment manufacturer has no power of law to issue an edict containing "SHALL" language. Neither the Standard authoring body, standards by the way are VOLUNTARY as to participation, the NTL, nor the manufacturer hold the power of LAW. The model NEC language requires that equipment be utilized, installed, etc. under itself and its listing and mfg instructions - but also provides for other engineered and designed "additional" or better than minimum. The NEC makes the mfg "recommendations" the mfg "SHOULDs" and the listed equipment's Standards' "SHOULDs" upgraded to SHALLs and SHALL NOTs as MINIMUM requirements when they exceed requirements otherwise provided for in the NEC.
    So you are saying a recommendation is somehow converted into a SHALL by the time it gets into the NEC? Horse hockey. It is nothing more than a suggestion similar to "I suggest you wear a raincoat while it rains". It is not required, but may be a good idea. Wait, maybe you should just come in out of the rain.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    If this circuit is not in one of the areas defined in 210.52(A),(B),(C) as required by 210.11(C) -----it is not a SABC.

    Plugging a small appliance into a circuit does not make it a SABC.

    EXACTLY


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    If this circuit is not in one of the areas defined in 210.52(A),(B),(C) as required by 210.11(C) -----it is not a SABC.

    Plugging a small appliance into a circuit does not make it a SABC.
    If I iron in my bedroom does that mean I need to install another laundry circuit?

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    If I iron in my bedroom does that mean I need to install another laundry circuit?
    I dunno, what does your wife want?


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    What do you define as a SABC?
    THAT is what I am asking YOU.

    Why does a dining room have to be on a 20 amp circuit?
    THAT is ALSO what I am asking YOU.

    If you have a counter top in a dining room, does it need receptacles? Is this a SABC?
    Where did the countertop come from, I am asking about the 20 amp circuit in the dining room - nothing was mentioned about any countertop.

    If I run a circuit just for the wall receptacles in the kitchen and and dining room, why does it have to be on a 20 amp circuit?
    Please go back and re-read my questions, you are covering some of the questions as questions, not with answers.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    I have answered you. The wall receptacles in the dining area are a SABC. That is why they are on a 20 amp circuit.
    That is not why they are on a 20 amp circuit.

    Those receptacles are on a 20 amp circuit simply because I wanted all the circuits to be 20 amp circuits throughout the house.

    So, you are saying that ALL the circuits are SABC just because they are ALL 20 amp circuits?

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    If this circuit is not in one of the areas defined in 210.52(A),(B),(C) as required by 210.11(C) -----it is not a SABC.
    Now we are getting someplace, at least that is a start.

    Now state your answer to the opposite aspect: *just because* a circuit is a a 20 amp branch circuit and *just because* it is one of the areas mentioned ... *IS* that circuit a SABC?

    Remember, the code says "in addition to" back up in the code sections I posted.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That is not why they are on a 20 amp circuit.

    Those receptacles are on a 20 amp circuit simply because I wanted all the circuits to be 20 amp circuits throughout the house.

    So, you are saying that ALL the circuits are SABC just because they are ALL 20 amp circuits?
    No, they are not on a 20 amp circuit because that is what you wanted. They cannot be on a general purpose 15 or 20 amp circuit.

    If this a separate circuit by itself or goes into pantry and such, it is just another SABC.

    Lets start with 210.52(A)(3):

    (3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed
    in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be
    supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits,
    either or both of which shall also be permitted to
    supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other
    rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small appliance
    branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle
    outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in
    210.52(B)(1).
    No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve
    more than one kitchen.

    Now lets go here:

    210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
    unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
    circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
    floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)
    , all countertop
    outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
    refrigeration equipment.


    Code only requires 2 SABC, but you are welcome to add more.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Now we are getting someplace, at least that is a start.

    Now state your answer to the opposite aspect: *just because* a circuit is a a 20 amp branch circuit and *just because* it is one of the areas mentioned ... *IS* that circuit a SABC?

    Remember, the code says "in addition to" back up in the code sections I posted.
    See above reply to other post.

    Not every 20 amp circuit in those areas is a SABC. Circuits/receptacles for DW,range hoods,disposers, and such are not SABC and they cannot be on a SABC.

    Those circuits can also be 15 amp.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    How about it JP, you gonna come out and play or not?





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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Derek,

    I realize that you know what you thought you meant to write, but what you wrote is not what you thought you were writing ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    No, they are not on a 20 amp circuit because that is what you wanted. They cannot be on a general purpose 15 or 20 amp circuit.
    Those receptacles to which I am referring *ARE* on a general purpose 20 amp circuit *BECAUSE I WANT* those circuits to be 20 amp general purpose circuits, I am not wiring *ANY* 15 amp circuits in the house.

    If this a separate circuit by itself or goes into pantry and such, it is just another SABC.
    Where did "pantry" come from? I keep saying "dining room".

    Lets start with 210.52(A)(3):
    No, let's start with answering the questions I've asked, not making up a different question and trying to sidetrack the discussion. You HAVE YET to answer one of my questions, this is beginning to feel like I am conversing with Watson.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    See above reply to other post.
    Yes, see above replay to your other post.

    Not every 20 amp circuit in those areas is a SABC.
    Okay, now we are progressing.

    I wire THE ENTIRE FRIGGIN' HOUSE with 20 amps circuits. Got that?

    NONE of the 20 amp circuits in the "dining room" are SABC, they are all the required general purpose receptacle circuits with some lighting outlets on separate 20 amp circuits (remember, there are NO 15 amp circuits in the house - because "that is what I want"). Got that?

    Following so far?

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    How about it JP, you gonna come out and play or not?


    Hey, I'm working all day, then I rest, then I eat, then ... I go on the computer to play ...

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    I'm reading, and think I follow but I'm getting mixed signals on what you call what.

    Jerry, you can put all the 20 AMP circuits you want in a dining room. Heck, put every receptacle on a different one. By virtue of the fact they are in a dining room they are a SABC IF they serve a wall, counter, or floor receptacle. It's just that simple. They don't have to go to the kitchen first, or at all, to be a SABC. Receptacles under a counter installed to serve fixed appliances are not SABCs, nor those in a cupboard. I think we have refrigerators sorted out at this point

    No other 20 AMP circuits from any other part of the house (SABCs excepted) can serve any of the wall, counter, or floor receptacles in the dining room, unless switched (this is really for lighting purposes but the "book" doesn't specify this use - these could even be 15s).

    None of the wall, counter, or floor receptacles in the dining room can go anywhere else but the kitchen, pantry, etc.

    If this isn't what you have going on I need some splainin'

    The circuits that serve SABCs are anticipated to have heavier loads than general use circuits and are required to be 20 AMP. They also require a calculation for each as part of a load calculation for service size where none of your other 20 AMP circuits would require anything beyond the calculation for them based on square footage. Many AHJs have local amendments that limit the number of receptacles on a SABC and drive up the number of required circuits, and in some cases drive up panel size..


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Okay Jerry, I have defined what I say is a SABC.

    I will restate it if you want.

    You tell me what you define as a SABC.

    Do not compare me to H.G.Watson, I am playing fair and square.

    Prove me wrong and I will concede. It will not happen on this point. At least I hope not....

    I will make a deal with you. You back your opinion with a registered authority and I will also. This going in circles is going nowhere.

    I choose Chris/Raider1 from here. Mike Holt's Code Forum - Moderators

    Who is your choice?

    Edit: I got a better idea . I just noticed you are in Florida. There is a Fl. IAEI code forum and I am a member. I will take this to them.

    Last edited by Derek Guridi; 10-12-2011 at 11:07 AM. Reason: Add info.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    I'm reading, and think I follow but I'm getting mixed signals on what you call what.

    Jerry, you can put all the 20 AMP circuits you want in a dining room. Heck, put every receptacle on a different one. By virtue of the fact they are in a dining room they are a SABC IF they serve a wall, counter, or floor receptacle. It's just that simple. They don't have to go to the kitchen first, or at all, to be a SABC. Receptacles under a counter installed to serve fixed appliances are not SABCs, nor those in a cupboard. I think we have refrigerators sorted out at this point

    No other 20 AMP circuits from any other part of the house (SABCs excepted) can serve any of the wall, counter, or floor receptacles in the dining room, unless switched (this is really for lighting purposes but the "book" doesn't specify this use - these could even be 15s).

    None of the wall, counter, or floor receptacles in the dining room can go anywhere else but the kitchen, pantry, etc.

    If this isn't what you have going on I need some splainin'

    The circuits that serve SABCs are anticipated to have heavier loads than general use circuits and are required to be 20 AMP. They also require a calculation for each as part of a load calculation for service size where none of your other 20 AMP circuits would require anything beyond the calculation for them based on square footage. Many AHJs have local amendments that limit the number of receptacles on a SABC and drive up the number of required circuits, and in some cases drive up panel size..
    Yes, yes and yes.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    Jerry, you can put all the 20 AMP circuits you want in a dining room. Heck, put every receptacle on a different one. By virtue of the fact they are in a dining room they are a SABC IF they serve a wall, counter, or floor receptacle. It's just that simple.
    Bill,

    Okay, that is what I am asking about - now, what section of the code defines them as SABC, remember, the code allows 15 amp and 20 amp receptacles for general purpose receptacles, and that the SABC receptacles *are in addition too* those general purpose receptacles.

    Ready for that code section which states what you just said.

    (bold and underlining are mine)
    No other 20 AMP circuits from any other part of the house (SABCs excepted) can serve any of the wall, counter, or floor receptacles in the dining room, unless switched (this is really for lighting purposes but the "book" doesn't specify this use - these could even be 15s).
    Okay again, where it that in the NEC?

    None of the wall, counter, or floor receptacles in the dining room can go anywhere else but the kitchen, pantry, etc.
    Again, code section please.

    As I read the NEC, unless I keep missing it, I have not found anything which says what you just said above.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    Yes, yes and yes.
    Code section, code section, code section.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    I might be missing some of the conversation, but the SABC are by virtue of their location in the kitchen/dining etc. Any other circuit, even if 20 amp and not dedicated, would just be a 20 amp general purpose circuit.

    Jerry, are you asking where this is spelled out?

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Jerry, are you asking where this is spelled out?
    Jim,

    Yes sir.

    I am asking about, as one example, the entire house being wired with 20 amp general purpose receptacles (which is allowed) and specifically a dining room *which has no receptacles on a circuit which goes to the kitchen*.

    I know that the kitchen SABC *are allowed* to extend into the dinging room.

    I also know that the kitchen SABC *are not required* to extend into the dining room.

    I also know that kitchen SABC which extend into the dining are *in addition to* the required general purpose receptacles.

    I cannot find (I may missing it) where *ALL* 20 amp receptacle outlet circuits in the dining room are required to be considered SABC.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jim,

    Yes sir.

    I am asking about, as one example, the entire house being wired with 20 amp general purpose receptacles (which is allowed) and specifically a dining room *which has no receptacles on a circuit which goes to the kitchen*.

    I know that the kitchen SABC *are allowed* to extend into the dinging room.

    I also know that the kitchen SABC *are not required* to extend into the dining room.

    I also know that kitchen SABC which extend into the dining are *in addition to* the required general purpose receptacles.

    I cannot find (I may missing it) where *ALL* 20 amp receptacle outlet circuits in the dining room are required to be considered SABC.
    Unless you have an individual circuit dedicated to a specific appliance, such as an A/C or such:
    210.52(B) Small Appliances.
    (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
    unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
    circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
    floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
    outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
    refrigeration equipment.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Wrong highlighting:
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    Unless you have an individual circuit dedicated to a specific appliance, such as an A/C or such:

    210.52(B) Small Appliances.
    (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
    unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
    circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
    floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
    outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
    refrigeration equipment.
    - 210.11(C)(1)
    - - (C) Dwelling Units.
    - - - (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

    That DOES NOT say that any and all 20 amp receptacle outlet circuits in a dining room SHALL BE SABC.

    That only says that TWO OR MORE ... does not say ALL ... TWO OR MORE shall be provided.

    That means you MUST provide TWO ... AND ONLY TWO ARE "SHALL" ... BUT AT LEAST TWO ... and more IF YOU SO CHOSE ... small appliance branch circuits ... AND ... go back to the FIRST PART of the sentence in 210.11(C)(1) ... IN ADDITION TO the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section - and that means that THE DINING ROOM MAY BE PROVIDED WITH BRANCH CIRCUITS OTHER THAN the SABC, and that the SABC ARE "IN ADDITION TO" those other circuits, and those other circuits MAY BE 20 AMP CIRCUITS.

    There is nothing which states otherwise.

    That is why you go back to the beginning of 201.11 Branch Circuits Required and read that part, then read (A), then read (B), THEN read (C).

    210.11(C) is "In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section,", and "this section" refers to 210.11, and 210.11 includes the part after 210.11 before (A), and includes (A), and includes (B), and includes (C).

    Okay, so you have now shown why *I* am correct , but what I asked you for was for the code section that backs up and supports what *YOU* say is required.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Jerry, in the areas in question general use receptacles are not permitted unless switched. This means there are no (shouldn't be any) general use receptacles in the dining room for the SABCs to be in addition to.

    The language in 210.52 B says that he provisions in 210.52 A. apply to all the receptacles in the dining room. Those provisions say nothing about what kind of circuit is required in the areas, only what the rules for placement are.

    210.52 B then says those receptacles must be served by a SABC in the dining room. It says ALL. This means a living room circuit can't serve the dining room. It then says the SABCs shall have no other outlets (only allowed in similar areas, ie kitchen, pantry). This means that the circuit can't continue to the living room for use on receptacles or lighting. This is also the blurb that tells you under counter lighting and such can't be on the circuit either.

    All the references are from 210.52 A and B, mostly B.

    The thing that states otherwise is :
    (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
    unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
    circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
    floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)
    , all countertop
    outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
    refrigeration equipment.

    The NEC is seldom clearer in intent than here.

    Last edited by Bill Kriegh; 10-12-2011 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    The way I read those sections is that in addition to any circuits required in the living, bedrooms etc, that there must be a minimum of 2 SASBC in the kitchen, dining etc. I don't really see this as much different than either the required bathroom receptacle or laundry circuits. This requirement is over and above the requirements for general use circuits.

    Maybe I am missing the point of contention.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh
    This means a living room circuit can't serve the dining room. It then says the SABCs shall have no other outlets (only allowed in similar areas, ie kitchen, pantry). This means that the circuit can't continue to the living room for use on receptacles or lighting. This is also the blurb that tells you under counter lighting and such can't be on the circuit either.
    I'll have to digest this more when I read it tomorrow, I'm going all loopy right now, but ... you are starting to make sense ... THAT is scary!

    And if you are correct, I have not been checking for that - let me read your stuff, and Derek's stuff, again tomorrow with a fresh mind.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The way I read those sections is that in addition to any circuits required in the living, bedrooms etc, that there must be a minimum of 2 SASBC in the kitchen, dining etc. I don't really see this as much different than either the required bathroom receptacle or laundry circuits. This requirement is over and above the requirements for general use circuits.

    Maybe I am missing the point of contention.
    Jim, if you have the required 20 amp circuit and receptacle to a bathroom, can you put a convenience receptacle off a general purpose circuit in it?

    Loaded question: I read a ROP that says no.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    Jerry, in the areas in question general use receptacles are not permitted unless switched. This means there are no (shouldn't be any) general use receptacles in the dining room for the SABCs to be in addition to.

    The language in 210.52 B says that he provisions in 210.52 A. apply to all the receptacles in the dining room. Those provisions say nothing about what kind of circuit is required in the areas, only what the rules for placement are.

    210.52 B then says those receptacles must be served by a SABC in the dining room. It says ALL. This means a living room circuit can't serve the dining room. It then says the SABCs shall have no other outlets (only allowed in similar areas, ie kitchen, pantry). This means that the circuit can't continue to the living room for use on receptacles or lighting. This is also the blurb that tells you under counter lighting and such can't be on the circuit either.

    All the references are from 210.52 A and B, mostly B.

    The thing that states otherwise is :
    (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
    unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
    circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
    floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)
    , all countertop
    outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
    refrigeration equipment.

    The NEC is seldom clearer in intent than here.
    Yes, yes and yes.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I'll have to digest this more when I read it tomorrow, I'm going all loopy right now, but ... you are starting to make sense ... THAT is scary!

    And if you are correct, I have not been checking for that - let me read your stuff, and Derek's stuff, again tomorrow with a fresh mind.
    Finally!!!


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    Jim, if you have the required 20 amp circuit and receptacle to a bathroom, can you put a convenience receptacle off a general purpose circuit in it?

    Loaded question: I read a ROP that says no.
    Not loaded at all

    210.11(C) Dwelling Units

    (3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
    of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
    least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
    supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall
    have no other outlets.


    I read this as at least one circuit must be installed to supply bathroom receptacles, and says the bathroom circuit can't go ( or come from) anywhere else (except another bathroom in certain cases). The rule says "circuits" and that should be any present in the bathroom.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Guridi View Post
    Jim, if you have the required 20 amp circuit and receptacle to a bathroom, can you put a convenience receptacle off a general purpose circuit in it?

    Loaded question: I read a ROP that says no.
    I remember part of this at MH. I believe it was posed about a 15 amp circuit under each window for holiday lighting. Sitting here with the first cup of coffee I don't see why you couldn't. The 15 amp is over and above the minimum of the receptacle within 36" of the basin. Or was it something about the bathroom receptacle circuits needing to be 20 amp? Can you post the ROP?

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    One overlooked possibility: the inspector was correct for the community in which the property is located.

    For example in my community the AJH will not allow GFCI protection of kitchen counter receptacles by means of a GFCI breaker or another upstream counter receptacle (except in the same box), they want a GFCI receptacle at every box above a counter which requires GFCI protecton, and ... "You can't fight city hall"!

    Or, to give another example, in the next suburb over, you can connect a dewatering sump discharge to the sanitary sewer in some parts of the community, but not others.

    So perhaps the inspector was literally correct when he stated that this arrangement was "illegal" at this property.

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    I remember part of this at MH. I believe it was posed about a 15 amp circuit under each window for holiday lighting. Sitting here with the first cup of coffee I don't see why you couldn't. The 15 amp is over and above the minimum of the receptacle within 36" of the basin. Or was it something about the bathroom receptacle circuits needing to be 20 amp? Can you post the ROP?
    Yep. That is the thread. I will go find the ROP.


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Here it is. 2011 ROP.

    2-149 Log #3569 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
    (210.11(C)(3))
    __________________________________________________ _____________
    Submitter: George M. Stolz, II, Pierce, CO
    Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
    (3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits
    required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit
    shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s) required by
    210.52(D). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

    Substantiation: A code-minimum installation calls for a receptacle installed
    within 3 ft of a bathroom sink, served by a circuit dedicated for that purpose.
    When someone adds a voluntary and permitted receptacle for lighting or other
    purposes in the bathroom above and beyond the minimum expectations of the
    NEC, there is no reason to consider them the required bathroom receptacles
    that are required to be served from the required circuit.
    As the text currently stands, it can be interpreted that every circuit that serves
    a receptacle in the bathroom (regardless of the designer’s intent for that circuit)
    must be served from a 20A circuit that serves only bathrooms.
    This would have no impact on GFCI requirements as posed by other sections.
    It would serve to clarify the section and the minimum code-required
    receptacles it should be referencing. The proposed language would also serve
    to isolate the required receptacles from other loads away from the sinks, if this
    effect is undesirable an exception permitting other receptacles inside the
    bathroom to be served would counteract that. Additional receptacle outlets
    installed to meet design criteria need not meet the requirements of this article.

    Panel Meeting Action: Reject
    Panel Statement: The current rule permits the 20A bathroom circuit to supply
    all receptacle outlets installed in the bathroom, whether they are installed to
    meet 210.52(D) or are in addition to the ones required by 210.52(D). The
    submitters notation that every receptacle outlet in the bathroom must be
    supplied from a 20A bathroom branch circuit is correct and is intended by the
    panel. However, there is no limitation on the number of 20A branch circuits
    that can be used in the bathroom.

    Number Eligible to Vote: 12
    Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12


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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks View Post
    When was a "dedicated" kitchen circuit first required? Some info I have says 1959. The problem is a neighbor selling house built in 1990. The dining room receptacles are wired with 12ga and on the same 20 Amp circuit as the kitchen. When they bought the house, there wasn't a GFCI in the kitchen period. One was added to the circuit when they bought the house in 2006. A home inspector tripped the kitchen GFCI and found that the dining room receptacles were off and went back on when the GFCI was reset.Said it was illegal.
    S.B.:

    As far as I can recall at the moment, "A 20A 120V dedicated KITCHEN circuit" has never been required in the NEC. There are specified requirements and exceptions for providing individual branch circuits for particular circumstances/equipment requirements/ratings but they are not limited to residential kitchens. Dedicated (single) Bathroom circuit or dedicated (multiple) bathrooms receptacle circuit yes, a dedicated laundry area circuit, yes, but not ever a dedicated to the only THE kitchen multi-outlet circuit required. Circuit or circuits dedicated to receptacles serving small appliances allowed to have outlets in multiple rooms, but the outlets dedicated to small appliance receptacles (with a few exceptions now, such as: igniters for gas ranges, stoves or cooktops; dedicated wall clock outlet, and permissive use for household/residential self-contained refrigeration equipment). As the years have progressed the former SABC for laundry area has been reclassified as a laundry circuit and must be dedicated to that specific use/purpose/area, but not so for kitchens. The sole dedication/restriction as to kitchens was and has been that same is limited to outlets in only ONE kitchen but may share outlets in OTHER rooms, areas, etc. Which means if there is more than one NEC defined KITCHEN area in a dwelling unit, a particular SABC may not have outlets in more than one kitchen. Nothing contrary to the UNAMMENDED NEC of any edition is indicated from your description - unless the AFCI protection required at dining rooms was not also provided. There is no prohibition to provide AFCI protection in any area of a dwelling unit as long as where required GFCI protection is also provided. As long as there were no switched receptacles co-mingled in the shared SABC which were present to provide GENERAL LIGHTING as an exception to a switched wall or ceiling light fixture/luminaire and the circuit was DEDICATED to SABC, the receptacles were readily accessible and located at walls, floors, within 20" above, or unlimited below counter areas and not above 5 (iirc) feet from the floor, not behind doors, drawers, in cabinetry, etc..

    I forget exactly which NEC edition, but somewhere in the time frame between the late 70s and 93 countertops in a particular kitchen needed to be supplied from more than one SABC. At some point a SABC was restricted to be one of 20A rating, no longer 15A was acceptable. Don't move my library seasonally, and don't remember the actual dates. In 1987 the NEC required all receptacle outlets near kitchen sinks (6' arc) be GFCI protected; In 1996 all kitchen receptacles serving a countertop were required to be GFCI protected. The unammended NEC does not expressly limit the total number of receptacles on a SABC in a dwelling unit; however it does require load and demand calculations.

    Not circuits dedicated to kitchens but branch circuits which were dedicated to small appliance 15- or 20- amp 120V receptacle outlets, has been required at least as far back as the 1962 NEC, and has been required to calculate load as 1500 watts (now clarified as 1500 va) as a demand or continuous duty load.

    220-4(h) In single-family dwellings, in individual apartments of multi-family dwellings having provisiions for cooling by tenants, and in each hotel suite having a serving pantry, a feeder load of not less than 1500 watts for each two-wire circuit installed as required by section 220-39(b) shall be included for small appliances (portable appliance supplied from receptacles of 15 or 20 ampere rating) in pantry and breakfast-room, dining room, kitchen and laundry. Where the load is sub-divided through two or more feeders, the computed load for each shall include not less than 1500 watts for each two-wire circuit for small appliances, these loads may be included with the general lighting load and subject to the demand factors in section 220-4(a).
    Keep in mind that back then and through the mid 80s cycles general lighting circuits were kept separate from readily accessible receptacle circuits, excepting only those receptacles incorporated into the equipment such as light fixtures, medicine cabinets, etc. and those convenience shaver, etc. receptacles could still be 2-blade type but had to be polarized. 1962 was also the year that required equipment grounding conductors for 15- and 20-amp 120V receptacle circuits, grounded type receptacles, etc. throughout a home. (1947 required grounded type (3-blade) receptacles for the laundry; 1956 required same for basements, outdoors, garages)

    IIRC the discussions regarding SABCs and location outlets required was moved from Art. 220 to 210 in either the 93, 96 or 99 NEC. From the 80s through the 1999 the style was transitioning to be from that of prohibition statements with loads of exceptions, to one of proscribed requirements with fewer and permissive exceptions.

    in 1999 for example the discussion read thusly:

    Kitchen Countertop Receptacles, Two Circuits Required. 125 volt, 15, or 20 ampere receptacles used for countertop surface appliances in a dwelling unit kitchen must be supplied by at least two 20 ampere circuits [210-11(c)(1) and 220-16(a)]. These small appliance branch circuits can supply receptacles in the kitchen as well as the pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or other similar areas where food is likely to be served.


    Reference to number of receptacle outlets required in family dwellings first
    appeared in the 1933 NEC. New Article 20, Wiring Installation Design, included Section 2012 for Adequacy Provisions in Residential Occupancies.

    Up until the late 70s Kitchen receptacles often supplied by a single 15A or 20A circuit.

    1999 References (via Mike Holt's Newsletter March 2000):
    Kitchen Countertop Receptacles, Two Circuits Required. 125 volt, 15, or 20 ampere receptacles used for countertop surface appliances in a dwelling unit kitchen must be supplied by at least two 20 ampere circuits [210-11(c)(1) and 220-16(a)]. These small appliance branch circuits can supply receptacles in the kitchen as well as the pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or other similar areas where food is likely to be served.

    Switched receptacles/outlets for general lighting have never been allowed on (dedicated as to purpose) small appliance branch circuits. General purpose circuits are not SABCs.

    HTH in your endeavors as you refine your question(s) and narrow down your own research.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-13-2011 at 08:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    S.B.:

    As far as I can recall at the moment, "A 20A 120V dedicated KITCHEN circuit" has never been required in the NEC. There are specified requirements and exceptions for providing individual branch circuits for particular circumstances/equipment requirements/ratings but they are not limited to residential kitchens. Dedicated (single) Bathroom circuit or dedicated (multiple) bathrooms receptacle circuit yes, a dedicated laundry area circuit, yes, but not ever a dedicated to the only THE kitchen multi-outlet circuit required. Circuit or circuits dedicated to receptacles serving small appliances allowed to have outlets in multiple rooms, but the outlets dedicated to small appliance receptacles (with a few exceptions now, such as: igniters for gas ranges, stoves or cooktops; dedicated wall clock outlet, and permissive use for household/residential self-contained refrigeration equipment). As the years have progressed the former SABC for laundry area has been reclassified as a laundry circuit and must be dedicated to that specific use/purpose/area, but not so for kitchens. The sole dedication/restriction as to kitchens was and has been that same is limited to outlets in only ONE kitchen but may share outlets in OTHER rooms, areas, etc. Which means if there is more than one NEC defined KITCHEN area in a dwelling unit, a particular SABC may not have outlets in more than one kitchen.
    Just another example of a code quote being taken out of context.

    The unammended NEC does not expressly limit the total number of receptacles on a SABC in a dwelling unit; however it does require load and demand calculations.

    Not circuits dedicated to kitchens but branch circuits which were dedicated to small appliance 15- or 20- amp 120V receptacle outlets, has been required at least as far back as the 1962 NEC, and has been required to calculate load as 1500 watts (now clarified as 1500 va) as a demand or continuous duty load.

    220-4(h) In single-family dwellings, in individual apartments of multi-family dwellings having provisiions for cooling by tenants, and in each hotel suite having a serving pantry, a feeder load of not less than 1500 watts for each two-wire circuit installed as required by section 220-39(b) shall be included for small appliances (portable appliance supplied from receptacles of 15 or 20 ampere rating) in pantry and breakfast-room, dining room, kitchen and laundry. Where the load is sub-divided through two or more feeders, the computed load for each shall include not less than 1500 watts for each two-wire circuit for small appliances, these loads may be included with the general lighting load and subject to the demand factors in section 220-4(a).
    I am sure that the OP was not asking about how to calculate the service or what the calculated load was for the SABCs.


    Keep in mind that back then and through the mid 80s cycles general lighting circuits were kept separate from readily accessible receptacle circuits, excepting only those receptacles incorporated into the equipment such as light fixtures, medicine cabinets, etc. and those convenience shaver, etc. receptacles could still be 2-blade type but had to be polarized. 1962 was also the year that required equipment grounding conductors for 15- and 20-amp 120V receptacle circuits, grounded type receptacles, etc. throughout a home. (1947 required grounded type (3-blade) receptacles for the laundry; 1956 required same for basements, outdoors, garages)
    And how is this germane to the discussion as posed by the OP?


    1999 References (via Mike Holt's Newsletter March 2000):
    Kitchen Countertop Receptacles, Two Circuits Required. 125 volt, 15, or 20 ampere receptacles used for countertop surface appliances in a dwelling unit kitchen must be supplied by at least two 20 ampere circuits [210-11(c)(1) and 220-16(a)]. These small appliance branch circuits can supply receptacles in the kitchen as well as the pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or other similar areas where food is likely to be served.
    Even using this definition I doubt that any reasonable person would consider a bedroom as an area where food is likely to be served as was proposed in other posts. Does a beer and pretzles in the living room make it a "similar area"?

    Last edited by Jim Port; 10-13-2011 at 08:41 AM. Reason: formatting
    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Dedicated 20A Kitchen circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Just another example of a code quote being taken out of context.

    [u]

    I am sure that the OP was not asking about how to calculate the service or what the calculated load was for the SABCs.[/indent]
    And how is this germane to the discussion as posed by the OP?





    Even using this definition I doubt that any reasonable person would consider a bedroom as an area where food is likely to be served as was proposed in other posts.
    Ensuite "food preparation areas" include coffee makers, microwaves, toaster/toaster ovens, etc. and are often found at counters installed in nooks in Master Bedroom suites, guest room suites, and servant or in-law suites which are NOT considered (NEC defined) Kitchens. Installation of refrigerators, even small ones, in residential occupancies in areas which are not "kitchens" is similarly addressed. Same can often be found in recreation rooms (even home theaters), family rooms, bedroom SUITES, "SUN ROOMS", three-season rooms, etc. All require SABC receptacles (exception for refrigeration equipment which may otherwise be provided with an individual branch circuit).

    In areas in which zoning prohibits the establishment of full "in law apartments", etc. or subdividing single family residential; etc. and the fact that the NEC also addresses such food preparation and/or food serving areas in OTHER than "KITCHENS or KITCHEN AREAS", the NEC Does address this.

    That your exposure or experience is so glaringly limited, is no reason to presume that the "world" is similarly limited, or for that matter that the NEC has the same "blinders" on that YOU do.

    The SABC is a dedicated circuit, it is dedicated to small appliance receptacles. It may NOT include lighting, receptacles (switched) serving as general lighting "outlets", ceiling fans, or be mixed with general use circuits. The discussion has taken many turns, including declarations which are untrue regarding Small Appliance Branch Circuits, and what they are and are not, and including an undefensible position by Peck that dining room wall receptacles can be combined with all other outlets in a dining room and not be upon a dedicated (as to the restrictions of) a SABC.

    The OP has indicated or postulated that there is or was an unammended NEC requirement to have a circuit dedicated to the kitchen location. There is not. Individual branch circuits are not small appliance branch circuits.

    The better understanding of demand and load calculations and understanding the minimums and design factors are important to understanding the language of the NEC, most especially the older editions. As in the past the NEC was drafted and geared more towards minimum design requirements - and scads of "recommendations". The NEC has taken differing editorial style positions over the decades, understanding the history of the developing language over the many decades is important to understanding the meaning.

    The topics organized under parts, articles, chapters has changed many times over the years. Knowing where to find what one is looking for in an older edition is helpful to the "newer" or "less experienced" researcher.

    I really don't care what Port or Kreigh do or do not think, understand, claims to think or understand, etc. But they unfortunately oftentimes make blatantly false statements/conclusions on such matters, such as earlier in this discussion B.K. claimed there was a NEC restriction for SABCs serving a kitchen to not have a SABC outlet in another qualifed location other than another NEC qualified kitchen, and this is patently UNTRUE.

    IF and only if the jurisdiction has adopted the NEC, AND the jurisdiction has further ammended the model language to have incorporated a restriction that made the OP's description "ILLEGAL" would there be a legality problem. The unammended NEC of any vintage is not law. It must be adopted (and is oftentimes ammended even if only minimally so as to name the authority) as applicable law for anything contrary to be illegal.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-13-2011 at 09:09 AM.

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