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  1. #1
    Raghav Singh's Avatar
    Raghav Singh Guest

    Default Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Hello All,
    This is more of a question about reporting.

    I recently came across a Federal Pacific Panel (Pic 1 and 2) which was double tapped (Pic 3) and had loose breakers (pic 4 and 5). Of course this was all noted and put on the report.

    Considering all of the instances of breaker failure, litigation and safety concerns surrounding stab-lok breakers would you flat out recommend replacement (retrofit etc) before the system is used. Or would you just report the defects and provide the relevant info about stab-lok breakers and recommend that they contact a licensed electrician for further guidance?

    As always any input related, or not, to the questions for information is appreciated.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Raghav,

    I would report it with all the defects and information and highly recommend replacement. I do not pussy foot around with these and Zinsco panels.

    In my particular area I have seen three homes with fires related to Zinsco panels and one with a death. Thats enough for me to be pretty tough on them.

    When many of these system get to these ages it time for serious consideration for replacement.

    Also in my area some lenders will not lend with these panels in the home. I let my clients know that also.

    Don Hester
    NCW Home Inspections, LLC
    Wa. St. Licensed H I #647, WSDA #80050, http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    I generally point out the facts (as you did) and give information well known to this issue.

    I think a cop-out is made IMO, when a panel isn't fully inspected just because of a *Name*.. Kudo's for doing your job there.

    Anyhoo, I think that presenting all of the facts/findings makes more sense to a buyer than simply saying "replace it".

    Or even worse, "You should replace it, I didn't even look at it because it's a XXXX"

    FWIW, I think Mr Hansen's article is a good one on this topic as well http://www.codecheck.com/cc/ccimages...glasHansen.pdf


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Tim,

    I have read that article before and it is a good one. I agree report all what you see. I still highly recommend that these systems be fully evaluated and most likely replacement is the wise action.

    Like I said I do not pussy foot around with these and I have many electricians in my area that agree with that assessments.


    Many times these panels are at capacity already (hence the need to double lug).

    Don Hester
    NCW Home Inspections, LLC
    Wa. St. Licensed H I #647, WSDA #80050, http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com

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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Home inspections are not pass or fail it is our professional opinion of the condition of the property at the time of inspection, code have changed some 60 year since Federal Pacific Panels, I run across one about once every month in my area and I call it for what it is and refer my client to an Electrical Professional, I have heard of "paying as much as $450.00 for a circuit breaker" which is no longer manufactured and all because that is cheaper then changing out the panel, go figure, we can only refer back to our report at the time of inspection.


  6. #6
    Raghav Singh's Avatar
    Raghav Singh Guest

    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Thanks for the replies and for the informative article. I am glad that I now feel that I did the right thing in this case , though I have no doubt that my boss will get an ear full from the agent (It is his report , I am still in training and help where I can). Still we have to do our job and I now feel more confident that reporting such information is, indeed, part of the job (though some may disagree)

    I have seen countless agents walk away from our company for reporting inconvenient defects , I guess there are inspection businesses out there who are more "accommodating" to agents but when I am qualified enough to be a home inspector, I will have to fall on the side of protecting the client and hoping that we keep the agents who are genuinely interested in the safety/functionality of the property , there are many such agents and they seem to be doing better in these times than any others.

    Thanks again for your help and please share any more info you have on these breakers, safety of the panel, costs to replace panel ,reactions of buyers/agents to this news etc (I will no doubt have an update on how the agent reacts to this shortly , hopefully its a "good job on finding that" but it may very well be the last time we do an inspection for her , she is a new agent that we are working with and possibly killing her first deal will not help us develop a relationship , unless she truly cares about her clients in which case she will be satisfied with our services and we will , hopefully , get more referrals from her).

    Good luck out there All


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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Just curious, did you look at the label regarding the use of tandem breakers?
    I should know this but don't run across these panels to often.
    I have never installed one but have crapped-caned any I've had the pleasure to know as an electrician.
    Interestingly, I have not encountered an inspection where the permit holder required the use of a tandem, thus why I never looked at one of the labels in this regard.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    In my market there are a ton of FPE panel boxes which were installed well into the 1970s. Best not to "Pussy Foot Around" with them recommend a qualified electrical contractor inspect the box as replacement will be required; otherwise they may come back to bite you. FPE panel boxes are not like many other components or systems we inspect they can burn a house down!


  9. #9
    Record Home Inspections's Avatar
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Hi Raghav,

    I do not even open Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panels. As you can see, the breakers can and will tumble when the cover is removed. The onus is now on you. I report it as a Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panel and follow that up with information regarding the panel. I also inform both, my client and the homeowner, that most insurance companies will not write a policy until this condition has been cleaned up. In some areas, the town inspector will not give the CCO on a home with these panels.

    Thanks,
    Mike Bugge
    Lic # 24GI00091100
    Record Home Inspections
    Hasbrouck Heights,N.J. 07604

    Last edited by Record Home Inspections; 12-02-2011 at 07:02 AM. Reason: Forgot to sign my name.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    I do not open FPE or Zinsco panels for good reasons. With both I have had breakers "jump" out of an FPE and slide off the bottom of a Zinsco. I'm just glad I had my Depends on those days!

    This is the verbaige I use, it was crafted by Jim Katen.

    Federal Pacific Electric Stab-Loc Panels
    By James Katen


    Although FPE’s electrical equipment was very popular from the mid-1950s to the early 1980s, this manufacturer’s panels and breakers are trouble prone and unreliable, even when compared with other equipment of the same vintage. The breakers may fail to trip during an overload and may not cut power when you switch them off.

    In Docket #L-2904-97, as part of a class action, the Superior Court of New Jersey determined that "FPE cheated during its testing of circuit breakers in order to obtain Underwriters Laboratories (UL) approval."

    The Institute of Electronics and Electrical Engineers (IEEE) estimates that, overall, approximately 1% of circuit breakers do not work. In contrast, an investigation for the Consumer Product Safety Commission shows that up
    to 65% of FPE breakers that were tested didn't work. When a circuit breaker fails to trip, a fire, property damage, or personal injury can result. A circuit breaker that might fail to trip will not protect the house and its occupants as it should.

    In addition, the FPE panels themselves have problems. The connections between the bus bars and the breakers sometimes loosen with age and use, leading to arcing on the back of the breakers. An electrician must remove
    the breakers to see this arcing. Replacement breakers for FPE panels are expensive. For instance, Seimens breakers sell for around $3-$15 each, depending on the amperage. FPE replacement breakers sell for about $20-$90, and some don't even bear a UL listing. For these reasons, I believe that FPE panels are unreliable and should be replaced with modern, reliable
    equipment. If you choose to ignore this advice and keep the panel, I recommend that you consult an electrician to remove the breakers and check for arcing.

    Recommendation: Replace the FPE electrical panel.

    FAQ: If my 20-year-old FPE breaker hasn’t caused a problem, doesn't that indicate it is reliable?

    Answer: Unfortunately, the "test of time" argument doesn't work very well for electrical equipment. Under normal conditions, a circuit breaker does nothing but pass current, waiting for an unsafe overload to occur. If such an overload never happened, no one would know whether or not the breaker was
    defective. Even if it did overload, it's possible that no one would notice that wiring had begun to overheat or breakers had begun arcing. There is simply no way to tell if the breakers will work properly unless an electrician overloads them and observes their response. Unfortunately, such testing itself could affect how the breakers perform in the future. For more information about the problems associated with Federal Pacific products, visit Federal Pacific Electric Panels: Fires Waiting to Happen, Debate Waiting to Be Ended.


    ® 2001-2011 James Katen

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  11. #11
    Raghav Singh's Avatar
    Raghav Singh Guest

    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Record Home Inspections View Post
    Hi Raghav,

    I do not even open Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panels. As you can see, the breakers can and will tumble when the cover is removed. The onus is now on you. I report it as a Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panel and follow that up with information regarding the panel. I also inform both, my client and the homeowner, that most insurance companies will not write a policy until this condition has been cleaned up. In some areas, the town inspector will not give the CCO on a home with these panels.

    Thanks,
    Mike Bugge
    Lic # 24GI00091100
    Record Home Inspections
    Hasbrouck Heights,N.J. 07604
    Thanks again everyone for all of the information and warnings. Your caution has been well heeded . On the original report it states (in addition to the the double tap and loose breakers):

    "The main Panel located in the garage is a Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panel. Due to the reported failures, controversy and litigation to which this panel and it breakers are the subject of I cannot determine if it is safe to use and strongly recommend that you contact a licensed electrician for evaluation/guidance into this matter before you use this panel as part of an operational electrical system."

    Further my boss has contacted the client and agent who were surprised to hear anything about this (would this item generally be required in a disclosure). He has left a message asking for a call back from the seller but no luck yet.

    Please let me know if I could have done things differently , better or if I should be taking some action which I have not yet taken. Thank you all for your guidance on this matter.

    Edit after post: Just saw you post Mr. Patterson , thanks for the verbiage, I guess you see these panels from time to time. Mostly new construction in the suburbs where we operate so this was a first for me

    Last edited by Raghav Singh; 12-02-2011 at 08:00 AM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    I understand you guys gotta do what you gotta do, but as an electrician I refuse to remove the cover of any FPE panel with the skinny breakers unless I have a signed work order for its' replacement, and absent a good reason extend that rule to all FPE panels.

    One of the big issues with the skinnys is that they can be wiggled into a space on the buss not designed for them. These are most often the ones that fall out when the cover is removed, but not always.

    Additionally, some of the busses are built so that the pressure from the cover may be the only thing forcing various pieces together to make a connection. Removing the cover may cause arcing at these connections, then reinstalling the cover restores a now damaged buss connection likely to fail under load.

    All of this in addition to the fact I've seen breakers that not only won't trip but can't be shut off manually. Really, really bad stuff. FPE should never get a pass even if it "looks to be in good shape"


  13. #13
    cuba_pete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Not to pick nits...but is that main really in the "on" position while these breakers were being removed (also look like they are "on")?

    That's a good way to induce arc-flash in an already sketchy panel.


  14. #14
    Ken Marchi's Avatar
    Ken Marchi Guest

    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    I agree with all of the previous posts and provide the standard paragraph I use in my reports for such panels. Please use it if you wish.


    A Warning about Federal Pacific Panels:

    I observed a Federal Pacific "Stab Loc" service panel in this home. This panel is the subject of safety related controversy and has been described by many as a "latent fire hazard". Its circuit breakers may fail to trip in response to over current or a short circuit. Failure of a circuit breaker to trip can result in a fire, property damage, or personal injury and does not afford the protection that is intended and required. Simply replacing the circuit breakers is not a reliable repair. This panel is recommended for complete replacement which will usually qualify as a "Major Defect". For your safety and peace of mind, we suggest a licensed electrician evaluate this panel and replace it as necessary. For additional information about this type of panel and commentary regarding it, please go to the internet at Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-Lok Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-Lok Repairs or any other web site by typing in Federal Pacific electrical panels.


  15. #15
    Raghav Singh's Avatar
    Raghav Singh Guest

    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Marchi View Post
    I agree with all of the previous posts and provide the standard paragraph I use in my reports for such panels. Please use it if you wish.


    A Warning about Federal Pacific Panels:

    I observed a Federal Pacific "Stab Loc" service panel in this home. This panel is the subject of safety related controversy and has been described by many as a "latent fire hazard". Its circuit breakers may fail to trip in response to over current or a short circuit. Failure of a circuit breaker to trip can result in a fire, property damage, or personal injury and does not afford the protection that is intended and required. Simply replacing the circuit breakers is not a reliable repair. This panel is recommended for complete replacement which will usually qualify as a "Major Defect". For your safety and peace of mind, we suggest a licensed electrician evaluate this panel and replace it as necessary. For additional information about this type of panel and commentary regarding it, please go to the internet at Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-Lok Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-Lok Repairs or any other web site by typing in Federal Pacific electrical panels.
    Thanks for the standard paragraph , it really sums up what I am trying to communicate in an organized way. I appreciate you letting me use it, I'm working on building an accurate , easy to read, informative base of "auto-comments".

    BTW: the buyer backed out for now, likely because of this issue


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    This is the only "official" document I have found about FPE panels and it is what I share with my clients.

    Commission Closes Investigation Of FPE Circuit Breakers And Provides Safety Information For Consumers


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    The CPSC report may just as well have not been issued. The only real revelation in the report is that Reliance Electric didn't view breakers that didn't trip under "certain" overload conditions as a problem, and that the CPSC was too stupid to refute that claim.

    Of course, the whole issue is that the CPSC had it's funding cut and couldn't afford to do a proper investigation. None of the other known issues were addressed.

    I provide the following link and let people do their own research A Summary of the Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-Lok Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, - FPE Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-Lok Repairs
    I don't feel like I'm doing my job unless I provide access to a bit more info than the CPSC report.

    This is a much more comprehensive report, the link to which is included in the above link. http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE-Haz...sed-070525.pdf

    Last edited by Bill Kriegh; 12-04-2011 at 08:07 AM.

  18. #18
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    I don't consider InspectAPedia to be an unbiased site for informaton since it makes money by drawing traffic to the site by whatever means it wishes.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    I don't consider InspectAPedia to be an unbiased site for informaton since it makes money by drawing traffic to the site by whatever means it wishes.
    I don't consider the "biased" opinions to be an issue from my perspective. I find the things they present to be consistent with my own experiences. Obviously, other's MMV. The CSPC report may leave folks with the opinion that FPE stuff may be OK, and I would find it personally unconscionable to leave someone with that opinion from information that I presented to them.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    This is the only "official" document I have found about FPE panels and it is what I share with my clients.

    Commission Closes Investigation Of FPE Circuit Breakers And Provides Safety Information For Consumers
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    The CSPC report may leave folks with the opinion that FPE stuff may be OK, and I would find it personally unconscionable to leave someone with that opinion from information that I presented to them.
    Bill,

    You would understand that you are right on about how just providing the link to the CPSC report and that James would not care about that it leaves some to think that FPE may be okay ... after reading Jame's posts for the last few years.

    Following his posts leaves one understanding that he would include such a reference without regard to what could be mis-read or misinterpreted by people with no or limited knowledge on the subject, without regard to what that may cause.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Very well said Jerry.


  22. #22
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    This link gives a pretty darn good oversight in most of the FPE controversy and the actions of CSPC investigations..

    Federal Pacific Electric FPE Circuit Breakers and Electrical Panels Stab-Lok Testing Update J Aronstein Stablok Stab Lok Test Results as of May 2007 - see the PDF file cited here

    Personally I find inspectapedia quite unbiased, quite informative and above and beyond what you would ever expect from a government agency. It is without debate the current most respected technical and testing information entity available on FPE hardware. But more importantly what they say is verifiable and not just BS that has no resolution like CSPC who timidly exited the investigation due to politics. If any organization on our planet is biased it would be one that hinges it's existence on political platforms....ie...CSPC.

    Now having said all that I have very little experience in FPE panels but what little I have is fresh in my memory banks as being very poorly designed with a sloppy breaker fit that frankly makes you very uncomfortable and is usually indicative of the problems presented by the inspectapedia testing and their references.

    The CSPC vacated the investigation and did not represent the safety of the public to which their logo suggests is their highest priority .. before politics..


  23. #23
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    I would no more send a client to InspectAPedia for information than I would to this site. There is good information on both sites but it is just that....opinions that I may or may not agree with....plus both are for profit endeavors ( and there is nothing wrong with that). If I ended up in court over a FPE issue, if I would like to have the opinion of the US government as a reference. Here is what I put in my reports about FPE panels:

    "The panel in this house is a Federal Pacific Electric brand. FPE breakers have developed a reputation for having a number of problems with their system. Some of these problems include 240-volt breakers that do not trip when put under an excessive load and breakers that do not shut off the power to the house when the breaker is in the off position. The breakers also tend to develop loose connections in the panel which causes over-heating. The copper spring-loaded breaker clips tend to lose their ability to hold the breakers tight as the metal fatigues over time. Therefore a licensed electrical contractor who is familiar with Federal Pacific panels should further evaluate the system and advise you on how to proceed before closing. For more information you can go to the US Consumer Product Safety Commission at the following link:

    http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/PRHTML83/83008.html"

    When I am called upon to evaluate a FPE panel as an electrician I tell people the same thing plus I will check to make sure the buss bars are not burnt and all of the breakers cut off the power when in the off position. I have no crystal ball and have no idea how the panel will perform in the future. There are thousands of the panels in use and there is no data that just the presence of the panel is a guaranteed hazard. (That is what the CPSC said) And I am not going to lie to people and tell them there is. I have seen at least 200 FPE panels that were giving no problems while in operation so I have a hands-on opinion other folks may not have. I would no more tell someone that there house will burn down because they have a FPE panel installed than I would tell somebody the same thing about a house wired with aluminum wiring. Also I have I never known an insurance company to refuse to insure a house because of the presence of a FPE panel. Of course everyone will not agree with me.


  24. #24
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Actually I think the report your writing supports replacement. At least I think most buyers would look at it that way.


  25. #25
    Darrel Hood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    For years I heard that the FPE problems caused house fires. Is this a myth or is it true?


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Hood View Post
    For years I heard that the FPE problems caused house fires. Is this a myth or is it true?
    It has been shown on multiple occasions that you can arc weld with a 20 amp FPE breaker - because it does not trip.

    MANY FPE breakers do not trip when they should.

    Combine that with the fact that they are also known to jump out of the panel at you when the cover is removed (yep, had that happen to me too, and I am not the only one that has happened too), the design is flawed. I have had many FPE panels where the breakers did not jump out at me, they just kinda fell out loosely, and trying to keep them back in their slots so I could re-install the covers was a real pain.

    The design of the bus and breaker attachment is flawed, the breakers are known to not trip, what more does anyone need to recommend replacement of those panels?

    Whether your clients replace those panels or not is up to them, not you, but if there is a problem and you did not warn them -- YOU -- will be named on the list of names on the paper listing the "Defendants" ... *I* would not want my name on that list.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  27. #27
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Hood View Post
    For years I heard that the FPE problems caused house fires. Is this a myth or is it true?
    Hi Darrel

    I have almost the same write up as James Duffins post above and have for years. Now that I saw his I am going to change mine out to his. That added to any concerns you visually find in the panel needs to be in your report. If I see evidence of all of James post I simply write it up for a strong suggestion to replace with the minimum of what James said.

    I wrote up a panel that was about identical with the panel in the OP post with pictures. A year later the woman started having problems with breakers and then had some melted wires. She wrote me an email stating I missed all that and it cost her 1250 to replace the panel (she was also building a room on to the home and there was no more room in the panel which I also wrote). I guess she thought I would not still have a copy of the report with pictures.

    Yes, those panels do in fact have many concerns. I have opened the panels and have been across the room and heard zzzzzzzzzttttt from the breakers arcing.. I have seen heated wires. I have shut breakers off and the line still be hot. I have seen them already tripped and the AC still running.

    Lots of problems. No Myths.


  28. #28
    Darrel Hood's Avatar
    Darrel Hood Guest

    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    So as far as we know, there have been no house fires caused by faulty FPE panels?


  29. #29
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Hood View Post
    So as far as we know, there have been no house fires caused by faulty FPE panels?
    Not true. There have been many. I believe the last one I heard of around here was maybe the Flower mound or Lewisville area I think a year ago. Of course there are more I am quite sure but you are not going to hear of them all. As I said, I have seen the partially melted wires and heard and saw signs of arcing and the breakers not tripping and such. The next step from there would be a house fire or burnt receptacle or switch. It does not get any closer to fires than melted wires.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Hood View Post
    .
    So as far as we know, there have been no house fires caused by faulty FPE panels?
    .
    How Many Electrical Fires causes are Reported By Brand Name?
    .
    Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) Electrical Hazards Website
    .

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  31. #31
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Here is part of one story

    By CHRISTINA ROSALES / The Dallas Morning News crosales@dallasnews.com
    Published: 23 August 2010 10:56 AM

    Karen and Floyd Clardy remember hearing a giant pop from the garage. The lights in their Lake Highlands home went out, and suddenly there were flames. LOUIS DeLUCA/DMN Lake Highlands homeowner Todd Holmes says he's replacing his home's Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panel "to be on the safe side." View larger Photography Photo store
    They watched as fire spread from the garage to the attic and two rooms in the house, causing $160,000 worth of structural damage.
    "The breaker box was shooting flames, and there were sparks," Karen Clardy said.
    Dallas Fire-Rescue determined that the fire in March started in the electrical panel in the garage. The Clardys' home was equipped with a Federal Pacific Stab-Lok, a type of circuit breaker in thousands of North Texas homes that is now widely thought by engineers, electricians and house inspectors to be defective - and dangerous.


  32. #32
    Darrel Hood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    Thanks. The absolute knowledge there have been fires is another bullet in the gun when making recommendations to owners.


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Federal Pacific panel/stob-lak breakers

    There was a class action lawsuit filed against FPE in New Jersey - and they lost. So, there is a legal finding that FPE equipment IS DEFECTIVE. At this point you aren't lying to folks when you present the fact the stuff is defective - a court of law said so.


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