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  1. #1
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    Default Fixed Breaker Arm

    I thought it was very appropriate that this breaker was labeled FIRE.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    As you likely know, those are internal trip and the retainer clip will not prevent operation of the breaker as and overcurrent device. It just keeps people from inadvertently turning off important equipment.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  3. #3
    Robert Meier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    That's designed to keep the CB locked on. Looks like it wasn't installed properly or isn't designed for that CB.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    That's designed to keep the CB locked on. Looks like it wasn't installed properly or isn't designed for that CB.
    Those types of lockout locks are not allowed for a couple of reasons: 1) there is no "lock" on it, anyone can remove it; 2) the lockout device is required to 'stay in place' when not locked, i.e., the lockout must remain there, ready for a lock to be installed - that type just seems to 'disappear' when removed, and therefore there no longer is a lockout at the breaker.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Robert Meier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Those types of lockout locks are not allowed for a couple of reasons: 1) there is no "lock" on it, anyone can remove it; 2) the lockout device is required to 'stay in place' when not locked, i.e., the lockout must remain there, ready for a lock to be installed - that type just seems to 'disappear' when removed, and therefore there no longer is a lockout at the breaker.
    Those devices are not intended for lock out/tag out procedures. They are permitted and in some cases required by the NEC when complying with the exception in Article 701 for unit equipment.

    701.11(G) Unit Equipment. Individual unit equipment for legally required standby illumination shall consist of the following:
    (1) A rechargeable battery
    (2) A battery charging means
    (3) Provisions for one or more lamps mounted on the equipment and shall be permitted to have terminals for remote lamps
    (4) A relaying device arranged to energize the lamps automatically upon failure of the supply to the unit equipment
    The batteries shall be of suitable rating and capacity to supply and maintain at not less than 87 percent of the nominal battery voltage for the total lamp load associated with the unit for a period of at least 1 hours, or the unit equipment shall supply and maintain not less than 60 percent of the initial legally required standby illumination for a period of at least 1 hours. Storage batteries, whether of the acid or alkali type, shall be designed and constructed to meet the requirements of emergency service.
    Unit equipment shall be permanently fixed in place (i.e., not portable) and shall have all wiring to each unit installed in accordance with the requirements of any of the wiring methods in Chapter 3. Flexible cord-and-plug connection shall be permitted, provided that the cord does not exceed 900 mm (3 ft) in length. The branch circuit feeding the unit equipment shall be the same branch circuit as that serving the normal lighting in the area and connected ahead of any local switches. Legally required standby luminaires that obtain power from a unit equipment and are not part of the unit equipment shall be wired to the unit equipment by one of the wiring methods of Chapter 3.
    Exception: In a separate and uninterrupted area supplied by a minimum of three normal lighting circuits, a separate branch circuit for unit equipment shall be permitted if it originates from the same panelboard as that of the normal lighting circuits and is provided with a lock-on feature



  6. #6
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Commonly used in retail where the breaker is used as a switch to control the load like lighting. This lock just stops the wrong thing from being turned off. It is not for lockout tagout.

    As Jim said it will still trip if a fault or overcurrent occurs.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    I gave it a wiggle an the way the clip was installed, there was no play at all in the breaker arm. Can a breaker still trip even if the arm cannot travel?

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    I gave it a wiggle an the way the clip was installed, there was no play at all in the breaker arm. Can a breaker still trip even if the arm cannot travel?
    Yes, it will still trip but one would not be able to reset it to the "on" position since the lock clip prevents movement to the "off" position first. Is handy though to prevent an important breaker from being inadvertently shut off i.e. time clock, critical lighting, etc.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    So it is allowable, correct?

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  10. #10
    Robert Meier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    So it is allowable, correct?
    Yes, and as previously mentioned sometimes required by the NEC.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    Yes, and as previously mentioned sometimes required by the NEC.
    I've been searching the internet for a proper example of a LOCK-on device and have not found one.

    Do you have a link to a LOCK-on device which actually allows one to LOCK on the breaker.

    What is shown in the original photo provides no means to LOCK on the breaker.

    Also not that 701 is for: ARTICLE 701 Legally Required Standby Systems and I am not aware of a requirement for a "Legally Required Standby System" for a house (I am presuming that is for a house, Nick did not specify what he was inspecting).

    A house would have a "ARTICLE 702 Optional Standby Systems", which has no such requirement.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
    Robert Meier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I've been searching the internet for a proper example of a LOCK-on device and have not found one.

    Do you have a link to a LOCK-on device which actually allows one to LOCK on the breaker.

    What is shown in the original photo provides no means to LOCK on the breaker.

    Also not that 701 is for: ARTICLE 701 Legally Required Standby Systems and I am not aware of a requirement for a "Legally Required Standby System" for a house (I am presuming that is for a house, Nick did not specify what he was inspecting).

    A house would have a "ARTICLE 702 Optional Standby Systems", which has no such requirement.

    These devices are used to lock the CB in the ON position so that they cannot be inadvertently shut off. I used Article 701 as an example of where they're required by the NEC. Their purpose, when properly installed is to keep the breaker on. You could use one even if the application/code didn't require them. Here's one such device from Sq D:



    Product Detail : QO1LO LOAD CENTER CLAMP QO - Schneider Electric


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    These devices are used to lock the CB in the ON position so that they cannot be inadvertently shut off.
    Actually, they aren't ... that is why I stated "LOCK".

    Looks to me that the same problem with the first LOCKouts is rearing its head again. Remember when the code referred to "lockout" and people started installing devices which did not LOCK? Eventually the code language was changed to reflect the 'hey dummy, the code says LOCK and those do not LOCK, and, by the way, the device which holds the lock needs to remain in place even when not locked, otherwise there is no lockout device there as required'.

    I see that same thing happening all over again with the code specifically stating LOCK-on feature and people are installing devices which do not LOCK at all, which leaves the breaker *not* 'locked on', the breaker is just 'a bit harder to turn off' - but that is not what the code says, is it?

    I used Article 701 as an example of where they're required by the NEC. Their purpose, when properly installed is to keep the breaker on.
    I agree with you your statement as presented, but not with the evidence presented with your statement - that device does not LOCK-on, it just creates a delay in turning it off ... but that is not what the code says, is it?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  15. #15
    Robert Meier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post


    I agree with you your statement as presented, but not with the evidence presented with your statement - that device does not LOCK-on, it just creates a delay in turning it off ... but that is not what the code says, is it?

    I'm not sure what you mean, but have you ever tried to shut off a CB with one of these devices installed or are you just playing with the words "lock on"?


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    locking the breaker handle will not prevent the internal trip of the breaker.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean, but have you ever tried to shut off a CB with one of these devices installed or are you just playing with the words "lock on"?
    Those are called breaker locks even though an actual lock like a padlock is not installed. I would only geuss that this is the issue. Effectively the breaker is locked on to prevent accidental turn off, unless other steps are taken to remove the device shown by RM.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Fixed Breaker Arm

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Jerry, are you asking about something like this?
    Jim,

    Those are lockout, not lock-on.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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