Thread: Missing Breaker?

I'm wondering about the wires attached directly to the main panel right side bus bar in this picture. I'm going to blame lack of sleep for me not picking this up when I was in there...
There is sub panel in the detached garage - my guess is these are feeding it?

Thanks!

Jerry

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It looks like the bottom right breaker feeds the garage panel.

There is what looks like a range or drier circuit on 2 single breakers, # 3 & 4 from right top that should be on a 2 pole breaker.

Looks like the arrangement of installed breakers has a total of 8 installed in the "service disconnects" part of the panel - 6 are permitted. Many of these panels restrict the breakers installed in the disconnect portion to 2 pole types so I'm guessing that's an issue here. The label would need to be checked.

Both of these panels are a mess. The panel in photo #1 has neutrals attached to the EGC bus, possibly a violation of the six service disconnect rule, and multiple NM cables squeezed into one connector just for starters.

Not to hijack the thread but the "6 service" disconnect as you call it is a debate I've had several times. I belive the code says "6 throws".

Can you turn off more than one breaker on 1 throw? If you can turn off 4 breakers at one time, is that considered one throw? Sooooo possibly I can have 20 or so breakers and I am able to turn them all off within 6 throws, do I need a main disconnect?

This may need to be a different post and I'm sure there is one somewhere on this forum.... Just food for thought!

Here's what I see: An older house has had a service upgrade. There should be a main disconnect, as Bill pointed out, or no more than 6. Now that we have pics of the meter, it is clear that the larger panel is a main service panel and needs to be repaired.

He neglected to install a tie bar on that range breaker feeding the cloth-covered wires, as Bill pointed out.

The remote panel in the garage is the work of an amateur. Have an electrician install a cable clamp and repair the grounds with a proper terminal.

There's plenty of repair work to do there.

I added a couple more pics and rotated the one of the main panel. Thanks for the help!

It would be nice to see that exterior service entrance panel w/o the dead-front cover to see the grounding, bonding and maybe where the bussing is split. It does look like the six disconnect rule is violated and any point beyond that panel the nuetral and ground wires should be isolated from each other.

Sorry; I see one photo is the panel I thought was missing. Neutral wires on the ground buss ~ Already mentioned missing C/B handle increase the two many main disconnects and is a serious safety concern ~ Main service ground wire looks too small, but cannot be sure ~ Definitely non-professional work and that should be mentioned.

Oh yea; peanut of half sized C/B are not allowed on the main section of a split buss panel.

Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship

It would be nice to see that exterior service entrance panel w/o the dead-front cover to see the grounding, bonding and maybe where the bussing is split. It does look like the six disconnect rule is violated and any point beyond that panel the nuetral and ground wires should be isolated from each other.

That's pic #2 of 4, I believe.

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Not to hijack the thread but the "6 service" disconnect as you call it is a debate I've had several times. I belive the code says "6 throws".

Can you turn off more than one breaker on 1 throw? If you can turn off 4 breakers at one time, is that considered one throw? Sooooo possibly I can have 20 or so breakers and I am able to turn them all off within 6 throws, do I need a main disconnect?

This may need to be a different post and I'm sure there is one somewhere on this forum.... Just food for thought!

Hi Wayne,

The code does not say "6 throws". This, or any other variation is just jargon. (I personally have no problem with jargon depending on what it is and how it is used).

The code says something to the effect of; no more than six switches and/or circuit breakers or a combination of switches and circuit breakers...... (something like that).

No code book with me but it should be in Article 230 - Services, if anyone wants to check it out.

Sincerely,

Corey

E3601.7 Maximum number of disconnects. The service disconnecting means shall consist of not more than six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure or in a group of separate enclosures.

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Not to hijack the thread but the "6 service" disconnect as you call it is a debate I've had several times. I belive the code says "6 throws".

Nope, it is a maximum of 6 disconnects ... regardless of how many times one must attempt to "throw" the handle to off, or how many handles one can "throw" to off at the same time.

- 230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
- - (A) General. The service disconnecting means for each service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3, 4, or 5, shall consist of not more than six switches or sets of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six switches and sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location.
- - For the purpose of this section, disconnecting means installed as part of listed equipment and used solely for the following shall not be considered a service disconnecting means:
- - - (1) Power monitoring equipment
- - - (2) Surge-protective device(s)
- - - (3) Control circuit of the ground-fault protection system
- - - (4) Power-operable service disconnecting means
- - (B) Single-Pole Units. Two or three single-pole switches or breakers, capable of individual operation, shall be permitted on multiwire circuits, one pole for each ungrounded conductor, as one multipole disconnect, provided they are equipped with identified handle ties or a master handle to disconnect all conductors of the service with no more than six operations of the hand.
- - - FPN: See 408.36, Exception No. 1 and Exception No. 3, for service equipment in certain panelboards, and see 430.95 for service equipment in motor control centers.

Okay.thanks all! Has the code recently changed? It's one of those dang moments when you think you remember what the code says and you go "oooops".

Thanks for the comments and specific code sections.

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Okay.thanks all! Has the code recently changed?

Nope.

The cover is NOT a "dead front", as the position knockouts have been removed exposing the buss and direct connection thereto when installed.

Blanks or a new cover is necessary, in addition to relocating the minis, thins from the top half of the panel where they do not belong. I cannot make out the rating of the full-sized SP breaker on the lowest left top half buss. Service disconnects must be 75C not 60C.

The panel diagram & labeling would identify what is and is not allowed and where, in the panel when used as service equipment, the date code for manufacture and Listing of the time period in relation to the UL marking guide for the product category as well as the associated edition of the UL White Book may prove helpful to you in addressing the concerns/questions raised.

I think Jerry H is referring to the wires you can see in the second picture. The right side breakers where there is a space it looks like there are wires attached directly to the bus bar. Is this what you are talking about Jerry H?

The method of bonding the grounding conductors to the sub panel is both a violation and dangerous. NEC 408.40, 250.148(c), and 250.8(a). Yellow romex missing box connector, unlanded red wire not capped off, reduced size ground wire, neutral wire color cannot be remarked on 6 awg. and smaller.
You could write a book on the problems with the service panel. It looks like they used the "spaghetti through a funnel"l method of Third World wiring.
Suffice to say, it was not installed in a " neat and workman like manner". 110.12.

No offense intended to the many Third World electricians whom actually do much better quality work than this.

I'm just soooooooo tired of DYI electrical A Physcian cannot treat him/her self. Why is it a Homeowner can burn/shock themselves?
Oh ya, just remembered, So I can inspect it

What a mess that panel grounding is scary. And the main panel looks like the electrician forgot his wire cutters the last day so he just stripped the wires wadded them up and jammed the extra in there. And on the bottom he left a coil of white wire. I can see leaving some extra but the just looks like pure lazy here.