Thread: Another Stab-lok panel

You guys in the US know that Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panels and breakers are junk and need to be replaced for safety.

This Canadian Federal Pioneer Stab-Lok panel has been hiding in this closet for 27 years with no cover installed. I found the covers in the closet behind the water heater.

The breakers are snug. They are a better product than the junk ones you got.

Similar Threads:

• federal pacific stab-lok
• Feed From Main Panel to Sub Panel
• Stab-lock inquiry
• FPE Stab-Lok Panel and Aluminum Wire
• Old (not Stab-Lok) Federal breakers

That may be safer than this

2nd pic; neutral is Aluminum? Ground wire looks aluminum as well. Is that right for that period?

Originally Posted by Stephen G

2nd pic; neutral is Aluminum? Ground wire looks aluminum as well. Is that right for that period?

Large gauge stranded Aluminum is ok for there. Those are the service entry cables. The bare ground is coming from the meter, in plastic conduit, so there are 4 wires from the meter box.

In Canada, or at least in BC, Aluminum is not allowed from the ground rod to the panel. That must be at least a #6 and it must be Copper. That was some other unfinished biz. See the pic.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

.
. They are a better product than the junk ones you got.

.
So Hounds Tooth Apparel Still in Fashion ? ( Leisure Suit ? ).
* those tiles are Fugly and suspect for Asbestos.
.

This is a photo flush thread. The OP is a respectable looking panel. Canadian legislators must have held out for more $ from the manufacturer than their US counterparts. Wayne's photo is helping me understand why people who listen to hard rock are called head bangers. John's second photo submittal proves the ground wire was copper, but transparent junctions boxes are not listed in either country.

Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship

This is a photo flush thread. The OP is a respectable looking panel. Canadian legislators must have held out for more $ from the manufacturer than their US counterparts.

I'm not an advocate for FPE, don't even like them, but I sure see a lot of those panels - cheap and readily available at any builder's supply place. I don't think politicians here ever clued in to the issue. The company was bought by Schneider and they made improvements to the product, increasing the tension on the stabs, basically.

John's second photo submittal proves the ground wire was copper, but transparent junctions boxes are not listed in either country.

The ground wire has been hanging loose all these years. Billy Bob added a circuit or two.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

You guys in the US know that Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panels and breakers are junk and need to be replaced for safety.

This Canadian Federal Pioneer Stab-Lok panel has been hiding in this closet for 27 years with no cover installed. I found the covers in the closet behind the water heater.

The breakers are snug. They are a better product than the junk ones you got.

Here's a recent one for ya John - check out the "Painted Main" that I could not move !

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Large gauge stranded Aluminum is ok for there. Those are the service entry cables. The bare ground is coming from the meter, in plastic conduit, so there are 4 wires from the meter box.

In Canada, or at least in BC, Aluminum is not allowed from the ground rod to the panel. That must be at least a #6 and it must be Copper. That was some other unfinished biz. See the pic.

Not sure about Canada but here the NEC would prohibit the 4th conductor in that raceway unless the service disconnect were outside adjacent to the meter. There should only be 3 service entrance conductors between the meter and the service disconnect.

Originally Posted by Jim Hintz

Here's a recent one for ya John - check out the "Painted Main" that I could not move !

Those are the old breakers with the red handles.Since you only see old FPE down there, you are right to call for replacing them all.

Originally Posted by Robert Meier

Not sure about Canada but here the NEC would prohibit the 4th conductor in that raceway unless the service disconnect were outside adjacent to the meter. There should only be 3 service entrance conductors between the meter and the service disconnect.

Where the conduit is PVC, I often see the bare bonding wire coming in to the panel with the SEC's, so I believe it is permitted here. We have our service disconnects indoors, usually in the breaker panel.

John don't know what you require up "up there" but here the incoming utility neutral is bonded to the meter can, and the neutral buss in a panel with the service disconnect is also bonded to the cabinet/ground. A bonding wire between the meter can and panel in these circumstances does nothing but provide a parallel current path for neutral current.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

They are a better product than the junk ones you got.

A few years back, had a Grand Torino Sport that was made in Canada. Mechanic said it had a better engine than those made here in the states. Maybe you are doing something right up there after all.

Of course the panel cover was not installed.

The shelf in front of the panel wouldn't allow for such.

What is the contamination I see on the main?

Rodent droppings on the shelf that violates the clearance requirement.

Subsequent pics reveal "open" splices.

You sure those aren't from my area?

Actually got an argument from an architect about panel in the bathroom once.

Was told by another that panel could not be located in a bedroom because branch circuit wiring emanating from panel was not AFCI protected where not specified but since wiring was in bedroom, 210.12 applied to ALL branch circuits leaving the panel.

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

A bonding wire between the meter can and panel in these circumstances does nothing but provide a parallel current path for neutral current.

Right. I may be mistaken as to where that ground strap originates. Naturally, I never see inside a meter can.

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

A few years back, had a Grand Torino Sport that was made in Canada. Mechanic said it had a better engine than those made here in the states. Maybe you are doing something right up there after all.

After all or all along? We used to manufacture everything ourselves, before the Free Trade deal.
The Robertson screwdriver is another great Canadian product. Henry Ford wanted to buy the patent rights. Robertson said nay. Ford said you'll never see one of your screw heads in one of my cars. That's why y'all have to fumble with Phillips screw heads to this day.

Originally Posted by Richard D. Fornataro

Of course the panel cover was not installed.

The shelf in front of the panel wouldn't allow for such.

What is the contamination I see on the main?

Rodent droppings on the shelf that violates the clearance requirement.

Subsequent pics reveal "open" splices.

You sure those aren't from my area?

Actually got an argument from an architect about panel in the bathroom once.

Was told by another that panel could not be located in a bedroom because branch circuit wiring emanating from panel was not AFCI protected where not specified but since wiring was in bedroom, 210.12 applied to ALL branch circuits leaving the panel.

Rodents and retards don't recognize borders.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

Even so they still have to be evaluated by an Electrician. Question all inspectors should ask themselves would you trust them to trip when all info shows they may not?

Again I must repeat, an oxymoron, I don't like Fed Pioneer breaker panels. But I have one in my house and I can tell you that the breakers do trip when called upon to do so.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

One other thing to keep in mind is you can't put AFCI breakers on them and GFCI breakers are very expensive.

Why would they want to install those breakers when they can't even see fit to install the panel cover, grounding conductor, or a junction box?

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

Even so they still have to be evaluated by an Electrician.

Kevin,

Why do FPE panels need to be "evaluated by an Electrician"?

What is the electrician going to "evaluate"?

The electrician is not going to be amp to "evaluate" the breakers and if they trip as they should as that would take a very expensive and complex testing setup, which I doubt they would have.

Even if the electrician were to 'test a 20 amp breaker to see if it trips at 20 amps' (it shouldn't trip at 20 amps, even though some may think it should), that is only going to determine is 'that one breaker trips that one time', but it does not address all other breakers or any other time(s).

So I ask: What is the electrician going to "evaluate"?

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Right. I may be mistaken as to where that ground strap originates. Naturally, I never see inside a meter can.

Most meter enclosures have the neutral factory bonded to the enclosure. Since it's on the line side of the service disconnect the grounding of that metal enclosure is ensured by the connection to the grounded conductor. Without this bond a service installed with SE cable or PVC would have an ungrounded meter enclosure.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

Each person has a different thought about FPE. I for one will not open them and all the agents I work for know why. I have a disclaimer for the FPE and it is referred out to an Electrician. This way I can sleep at night knowing that an electrician has checked it for safety.
Not always does the FPE need to be removed but that is not a HI's call.

Kevin,

Do you contract all of your inspections directly with Agents instead of buyers or sellers?

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

Each person has a different thought about FPE. I for one will not open them .

I suggest that if your FP panels are built in Canada, then you should open them as a service to your clients.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

Wait till you get one that the breakers fall out and or you trip a breaker and it happens to be the one that dose not reset. No thanks I do not want that on my shoulders.

A breaker could turn off from any brand while removing the cover. Does this mean you do not check any panels?

You have admitted in other threads that electrical is your weak area. Would you even recognize a problem if you saw it?

If you're worried about a breaker falling out while removing the deadfront, shut the panel down first - if a breaker won't reset afterwards - too bad, there's a problem and it should be addressed anyway. If you're not looking inside panels, you're really doing your clients a disservice. Better go get a job as a Wal Mart Greeter - it's safer.

Without having the meter pulled you are always going to have live power in any panel. There will always be some danger even on a brand new panel. How is it that other HIs can inspect an energized panel but you can't?

Do you credit the people that hired you when you only perform a partial inspection?

Originally Posted by Jim Port

A breaker could turn off from any brand while removing the cover.

Jim,

While that is true, the design and placement of handles on the FPE breakers places the handle in a location which is makes it much easier to trip a breaker off when removing the cover than other brands.

Have been inspecting for over 20 years.
I have never seen a problem with Stab-lok panels.
Sure they had a recall on breakers.

Electricians are still installing them, as a matter of fact the Stab-lok seems to be the most popular panel in new homes, at least from what I see.

I remove all panel covers unless it is unsafe to do so.

ESA has not condemned the panels to my knowledge, and I have found no Fire Marshall stats indicating these panels are a fire hazard, nor to my knowledge is there any concern with insurance companies with these panels in Ontario.

Have been present when ESA inspectors have inspected homes for insurance requirements and they never have indicated verbally or written that the panels are of concern.

The most common problem I find is double tapping.

Kevin, I suspect you are getting most of your info from US sources, re: scary breakers that fall out and won't reset, etc.

Like Raymond, I have removed the covers from 100's of Canadian Federal Pioneer breaker panels and it is an important part of my inspection to do so. In this thread, http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...th-jacket.html, I found Aluminum branch circuits in 1950 houses, no evidence visible anywhere but inside the panel. Do you see those breakers falling out?

If you are in Canada, then you should know by now that those panel covers are easy to remove without tripping breakers. I find with the large panel openings and the speed screws they are actually pretty easy to open and close.

Yes, there are a couple of designs that have the spring-loaded bus bars. Some of the little submarine panels have those. One older design has a tight fit around the main breaker that is a real !@#!. And sometimes an old No-Ark can be unsafe to open.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

No problem you keep doing it OK I is not going to stop you.
I live at a border town BTW.

If you put Sault SM Michigan. I'll leave you alone.

Personally speaking I would rather take a dead front cover off than walk a roof.

John,

Looks like someone had a little fun with spray paint in that also.

They should move their cutlery storage to that cabinet. Will give hot knifing a new meaning.

[quote=Raymond Wand;201416]Have been inspecting for over 20 years.
I have never seen a problem with Stab-lok panels.[quote]

Same here in Alberta, they're just another panel to be inspected (including removing the cover live) as far as we're concerned.

Okay....all our neighbors to the North, we get it.

Stab Locks are no problem in Canada where they appear to be known as Federal Pioneer?

Stab Locks here is the U.S.?

AKA Federal Pacific.

Not so good, eh?

Google the name Federal Pacific or Federal Pacific Electric.

Looks like a totally different panel in the North.

Here, they arc, corrode & fail to respond to overcurrent.

Some U.S. homeowner's insurance companies refuse to insure them.

Yes, they are that bad.

Go to kntv and click on the investigative unit section, and there is a video on how to tell if you have a stab lok panel by Geoff Williams. Tony Kovaleski filmed it to help home owners save their homes. Investigations | NBC Bay Area

I have heard about FPE Stab-Lok panels before. Here's the thing, it's only heresay. Can any of you guys point me to any kind of insurance incidence reports, NEC notices, ULC, CSA, ESA, or just about anything official that indicates that there is serious risks to these panels?

FYI, I have taken probably more than 12,000 panels covers off over 20 years of inspecting properties in Ottawa, Canada. I've never seen a breaker fall out and I know a good proportion of these would be FPE. Is it perhaps that the panels are of a different manufacture in the US, than up here?

Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by David Glennie

FPE. Is it perhaps that the panels are of a different manufacture in the US, than up here?.

Yes they are.

Thank you Billy. Cheers.

The Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-Lok® Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-Lok® Repairs