Results 1 to 30 of 30
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    472

    Default Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Inspection Referral SOC
    Texas Inspector
    http://www.texasinspector.com
    What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Wow!!

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,776

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Had not seen that Utube before. Interesting.
    But, if plastic box the Fluke should light up on last test.
    It may be wrong in stating that the box is hot when in fact it is the outlet connection to the box that is hot by way of it being grounded through he outlet. (bad phrasing, hope you get point).


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    472

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Had not seen that Utube before. Interesting.
    But, if plastic box the Fluke should light up on last test.
    It may be wrong in stating that the box is hot when in fact it is the outlet connection to the box that is hot by way of it being grounded through he outlet. (bad phrasing, hope you get point).
    Mike Holt posted this on his site, so I assume that it has been properly vetted.

    Texas Inspector
    http://www.texasinspector.com
    What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,546

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Does Mike Holt approve having the receptacles upside down like that? Tsk, tsk.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Posts
    123

    Smile Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    John,

    There is no proibition to mounting the receptacles with the ground facing up. In fact there is a school of thyought that validates that type of installation. I don't particulary buy into it myself, but here it is:

    If the receptacle faceplate were to work it's way loose (I've never seen that happen), and the faceplate happens to be metal, then the first thing the face plate would hit is the ground pin.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,244

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Mike Holt posted this on his site, so I assume that it has been properly vetted.
    I hope it was not vetted by Mike Holt as it contains statements saying things are safe when they are not.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    472

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I hope it was not vetted by Mike Holt as it contains statements saying things are safe when they are not.
    Take it up with Mike Holt.

    Texas Inspector
    http://www.texasinspector.com
    What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,244

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Take it up with Mike Holt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Mike Holt posted this on his site, so I assume that it has been properly vetted.
    Don't need to ... *I* will not *assume* that it was vetted by Mike Holt.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
    Garry Blankenship Guest

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Had not seen that Utube before. Interesting.
    But, if plastic box the Fluke should light up on last test.
    It may be wrong in stating that the box is hot when in fact it is the outlet connection to the box that is hot by way of it being grounded through he outlet. (bad phrasing, hope you get point).
    If it is reversed polarity and boot-legged, that means the outlet back strap, screw and most all conductive components, ( except for the parts that should be hot ), are hot.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,244

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship View Post
    If it is reversed polarity and boot-legged, that means the outlet back strap, screw and most all conductive components, ( except for the parts that should be hot ), are hot.
    Yeppers.

    And, if it is in a condo (or house) with metal frame stud walls ... *all* of the metal framing which is continuous with that metal box is also now energized.

    If newer construction, the metal studs would be grounded, that should trip the breaker. However, older metal stud construction did not have the metal studs grounded and all of the walls could be 'hot'.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    579

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Very informative


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    I will be adding an additional step to my testing of outlets!

    Matt Kiefer, Columbus Advanced Inspections
    Home Inspection Columbus Ohio
    Radon Testing Columbus Ohio

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    472

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Don't need to ... *I* will not *assume* that it was vetted by Mike Holt.
    JP: Save your venom for someone who needs to be right, like HG, for example.

    Last edited by Aaron Miller; 09-03-2012 at 08:40 AM. Reason: Accuracy
    Texas Inspector
    http://www.texasinspector.com
    What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Newsletter from Mike Holt, sent to over 23,000, Aug 31, 2012.

    Link: Untitled Document

    Followed a discussion on the forum, M.H. does not moderate, and did not participate in the discussion.

    Note, "Mike the Sound Guy" is not Mike Holt.

    We've discussed the limitations of 3-light "testers" and more expensive "circuit analyizers" dangers of use before, esp. pre 1984 work, use of same in 2-wire (no ground) and esp. in MWBCs or to test GFCIs installed in same.


  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    472

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Note, "Mike the Sound Guy" is not Mike Holt.
    And JP is not HG. What's your point?

    Mike Holt is responsible for what is on Mike Holt's website, no? Or will you and JP hold forth with more of your eisegesic piffle?

    The only aspect of this sort of venue - the forum - that I dislike is that it has a tendency to promote sniping, when the purpose should be the dissemination of information. None of us will ever concoct a bullet-proof statement, so why pretend?

    I apologize for the post, and in the future will only post "known facts" (whatever those may be) that have been agreed upon by both HG and JP. In other words, I will never post again.

    Last edited by Aaron Miller; 09-03-2012 at 11:07 AM. Reason: Honing
    Texas Inspector
    http://www.texasinspector.com
    What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,244

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    JP: Save your venom for someone who needs to be right, like HG, for example.
    Aaron,

    There was no "venom" in my post. Maybe you thought so because your posts are on the edge of venom so often (much more subdued than previously), which is okay, but that does not mean that I, too, am full of venom.

    To me, *you* "made a statement*, and *I* also *made a statement* - expanding on your statement and not wanting to prejudge Mike Holt based one your statement ... it was as simple as that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    472

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    There was no "venom" in my post. Maybe you thought so because your posts are on the edge of venom so often (much more subdued than previously), which is okay, but that does not mean that I, too, am full of venom.

    To me, *you* "made a statement*, and *I* also *made a statement* - expanding on your statement and not wanting to prejudge Mike Holt based one your statement ... it was as simple as that.
    I see.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Texas Inspector
    http://www.texasinspector.com
    What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Mike Holt didn't post on his "site", his forum participants did.

    Mike Holt did post what I linked to on his site, and sent out same in a ("e")newsletter (which he often does when others have passed along safety information, etc. of interest).

    Aaron, its akin to what me, you, and J.P. post on this (B.H.'s) site. Brian doesn't "vet" mine, J.P.'s, or your posts on his (this) forum either.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Southwest US
    Posts
    585

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    In other words, I will never post again.
    Uhh Huhhh

    END GLOBAL WHINING

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    472

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Mike Holt didn't post on his "site", his forum participants did.

    Mike Holt did post what I linked to on his site, and sent out same in a ("e")newsletter (which he often does when others have passed along safety information, etc. of interest).

    Aaron, its akin to what me, you, and J.P. post on this (B.H.'s) site. Brian doesn't "vet" mine, J.P.'s, or your posts on his (this) forum either.
    OK. I understand your point.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Texas Inspector
    http://www.texasinspector.com
    What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    472

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    HG:

    Let us suppose, just for the moment, that there is someone who holds himself out to the rest of the world to be an expert on all things fromáge. Our turophile dubs himself the Big Cheese and authors a website with the same moniker at www.bigcheese.wiz . It is his aim to inform about the love of his life - curdled and molded milk - and to keep others' thoughts about cheese on the right track. On his site he allows for a forum to which he invites commentary on the subject. Some well-meaning, but sadly misguided soul posts a recipe for a feta cheese that may result in poisoning the digester. Does the Big Cheese have an obligation to make a careful and critical examination of (vet) the recipe and pronounce his blessing or curse upon it, or should he simply allow nature to take its course, resulting in the poisoning of others?

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Texas Inspector
    http://www.texasinspector.com
    What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    552

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    JP: Save your venom for someone who needs to be right, like HG, for example.
    It looks like your new leaf to be kind and considerate of fellow posters, observed in another thread, has withered and turned brown on the tree.


  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    472

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    It looks like your new leaf to be kind and considerate of fellow posters, observed in another thread, has withered and turned brown on the tree.
    Autumn is upon us.

    Texas Inspector
    http://www.texasinspector.com
    What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    552

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Autumn is upon us.
    I can accept that!


  26. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    HG:

    Let us suppose, just for the moment, that there is someone who holds himself out to the rest of the world to be an expert on all things fromáge. Our turophile dubs himself the Big Cheese and authors a website with the same moniker at www.bigcheese.wiz . It is his aim to inform about the love of his life - curdled and molded milk - and to keep others' thoughts about cheese on the right track. On his site he allows for a forum to which he invites commentary on the subject. Some well-meaning, but sadly misguided soul posts a recipe for a feta cheese that may result in poisoning the digester. Does the Big Cheese have an obligation to make a careful and critical examination of (vet) the recipe and pronounce his blessing or curse upon it, or should he simply allow nature to take its course, resulting in the poisoning of others?
    In a word: No.


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    472

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    In a word: No.
    No problem. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

    Texas Inspector
    http://www.texasinspector.com
    What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Wenatchee Wa
    Posts
    301

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    That vid is wrong. You can not bootleg a ground and he should never of made the statement that alludes to it being electrically safe at 1.27. The ground is there to provide another ground path of low impedance (safety).

    Also as for receptacles being upside down. Perfectly fine and done that way in hospitals and such.

    The thinking is that if something metal drops and hits a plug the ground pin will prevent the metal object from short circuiting the hot and neutral together.

    Last edited by Don Hester; 09-19-2012 at 07:58 AM. Reason: error
    Don Hester
    NCW Home Inspections, LLC
    Wa. St. Licensed H I #647, WSDA #80050, http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    552

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hester View Post
    ....Also as for receptacles being upside down. Perfectly fine and done that way in hospitals and such....
    The thinking is that if something metal drops and hits a plug the ground pin will prevent the metal object from short circuiting the hot and neutral together.
    When all covers were metal, I think the original thought was a cover becoming loose and falling would not short the circuit. Now you see a lot of plastic and it doesn't really apply. Did see it commercially for a while though.


  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,244

    Default Re: Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hester View Post
    That vid is wrong. You can not bootleg a ground and he should never of made the statement that alludes to it being electrically safe at 1.27. The ground is there to provide another ground path of low impedance (safety).

    Also as for receptacles being upside down. Perfectly fine and done that way in hospitals and such.

    The thinking is that if something metal drops and hits a plug the ground pin will prevent the metal object from short circuiting the hot and neutral together.
    The problem with that thinking, which was good thinking, is that the ground prong is made longer so that it will make first and break last, and putting the ground prong 'up' instead of 'down' defeats that entire purpose as the ground will 'break' first and 'make' last.

    Again, though, there is no specified 'up' or 'down' for receptacle outlets.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •