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  1. #1
    John Bernard's Avatar
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    Default Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    I have always called electrical cables in contact with metal gas supply lines in attics.

    I recently saw electrical cables laying on a coated flexible gas supply line. Is this considered an issue since the gas supply line coating isn't conductive?

    Thanks

    John

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Both are allowed to be fished into walls, so why would this be an issue?
    Even if it were not coated, why would it be an issue??? Have you ever seen inside a gas furnace?


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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Recent discussion on this same subject ;

    http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ion-issue.html

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bernard View Post
    I have always called electrical cables in contact with metal gas supply lines in attics. I recently saw electrical cables laying on a coated flexible gas supply line. Is this considered an issue since the gas supply line coating isn't conductive John
    Electric cables - as in 120v? Why are they not in conduit?

    As for the coating not being conductive - I don't imagine arcing would have much trouble bridging that.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    Electric cables - as in 120v? Why are they not in conduit?

    As for the coating not being conductive - I don't imagine arcing would have much trouble bridging that.
    Very astute catch. I missed that in the photo. The picture is fuzzy but appears to be individual conductors, not sheathed cables. That should be in conduit or be a sheathed cable containing all the conductors of the circuit.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    I'd bet a Coke the blue cable is phone/ network
    The two black cables look like they are for cable TV
    The far black I cannot say.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bernard View Post
    I have always called electrical cables in contact with metal gas supply lines in attics.

    I recently saw electrical cables laying on a coated flexible gas supply line. Is this considered an issue since the gas supply line coating isn't conductive?

    Thanks

    John
    Whose CSST is that (manufacturer)? If this is Gastite then it is not acceptable. If it is other then you need to consult the manufacturer's literature. You also need to consult local building codes and ordinances as well as the local natural gas supplier requirements.

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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Looks like the far black cable is also cable TV, but I bet the far yellow cable is 12ga NM and it runs right across the top of the CSST. Given that there looks to be plenty of space there, it should have been separated. But again, the installation manuals for CSST only state "as much separation as possible."


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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Folks, the black and the blue are coax cables for whatever.

    The far yellow and the larger diam grey cables are electrical.
    They should be stapled to something every 4 feet.
    No need for conduit outside of Chicago, Eric.

    There is no reason not to separate them from a gas line. Good call.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Eric,
    Because they are nowhere near Chicago.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    Both are allowed to be fished into walls, so why would this be an issue?
    Even if it were not coated, why would it be an issue??? Have you ever seen inside a gas furnace?
    Construction code requires a minimum of 6" clearance between conductors and condutive materials, including insulated lines, or they have to be isolated from each other with anon conductive material. Not all states but a few also require the gas line to be bonded with aground size recommended by panel size such as in california.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Folks, the black and the blue are coax cables for whatever.

    The far yellow and the larger diam grey cables are electrical.
    They should be stapled to something every 4 feet.
    No need for conduit outside of Chicago, Eric.

    There is no reason not to separate them from a gas line. Good call.
    Low voltage such as communication and data lines are also required to be set a minimum of 6" apart when running parallel with electrical and mechanical lines that produce heat.( the magnetic field from 120v energy causes interference and loss of signal) and they should cross perpendicular at junctions.

    Eric not all wiring is required to be in conduit, but fire wall penitrations in multi dwellings such as duplexes or more, basement drops, exposed exterior can be run in types of SE cable or EMT with compression type fitting.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    Norman where is this a requirement? The NEC allows electrical cables and low voltage or data cables in the same hole through a stud.
    NEC2011 article 800.133 instillation of communication wires, cables and equipment
    Communication wires and cables from the protector to the equipment or, and cables attached to the outside of buildings shall (MUST) comply with 800.133 (A) through (C)
    (A) seperation from other cables section is optic fiber and I've see minimal to none in residental dwellings

    (B) permitted under article 725/760

    725.139 installation of conductors of different circuits in the same cable, enclosure, cable tray,raceway.
    (E)
    conductors shall (MUST) be permitted in same raceways, boxes, junctions provided conductors are seperated from the other conductors by a continuous and firmly fixed nonconductor, such as a flexible tubing.

    760.136 seperation from electric light, power ,NFLFA, and medium power network powered braodband communication circuit conductors.
    (D)
    Electric lights, power, non power limited fire alarm and medium power network powered broadband communication circuits in raceways (such as running through walls with hole chaseways) compartments, and boxes. communication conductors SHALL (MUST) not be placed in any compartment, outlet box, junction box, or similar fitting with conductors of electric light, power. class 1 non-power limited fire alarm, or a medium power network powered broadband commuications circuit.

    800.133
    (C)
    exceptions are set by cable sheilding and fire rating,it has referances to cable types and rating and identifing communication cables.

    So general rule of this IS do not run power with communication without minimum clerence or a fixed nonconductive devider.

    This rule has been in effect for decades on the construction side. again the electromagnetic field from power/electric circuitry causes interference and loss signal on communication lines when not properly sheilded and seperated.

    Last edited by Norman Ellis; 09-13-2012 at 08:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Even though running cable TV, phone and other LV cables next to standard line voltage cables is not a good idea, it is not a violation.

    It can (often will ) affect the quality of the LV signal, but it does not create a hazard.

    The restriction mentioned above covers mixing LV wires and line voltage wires (not cables) in the same box, enclosure, raceway. It does not restrict running cables next to each other.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Even though running cable TV, phone and other LV cables next to standard line voltage cables is not a good idea, it is not a violation.

    It can (often will ) affect the quality of the LV signal, but it does not create a hazard.

    The restriction mentioned above covers mixing LV wires and line voltage wires (not cables) in the same box, enclosure, raceway. It does not restrict running cables next to each other.
    that would fall under article 800.133 section (C) exceptions shieleded cables.
    Residential construction has fallen in quality of scope, because of the small profit margin. that is like using receptacles to carry curent or load on a general circuit. It is allowed but caused resistance in the circuits and excelerates the deterioration rate of the home's wiring. (example attatched)

    and that is an electrical issue waiting to happen, the same as running communication lines with lighting and power lines, 120v energy can be exposed to communication lines under circomstanced caused by weather, rodants or other infestation that can expose communication lines and equipment to 120v energy on the lowvoltage side. I'm saying construction as well, this does not include existing dwellings.

    NEC is the mimimum required, yet after items are installed such as aluminum circuitry from the 60's and early 70's, federal pacific panels, stab back receptacles, halogen interior lights and so many other items and devices that have been found to be defective and or a fire hazard, yet home owners are not required to replace alot of these items before putting their home on the market to be sold.

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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    You stated it is required to have a 6" seperation

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Ellis View Post
    Construction code requires a minimum of 6" clearance between conductors and condutive materials, including insulated lines, or they have to be isolated from each other with anon conductive material.
    Then you repeated it

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Ellis View Post
    Low voltage such as communication and data lines are also required to be set a minimum of 6" apart when running parallel with electrical and mechanical lines that produce heat.
    I said it is not a good idea but it is not a voilation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Even though running cable TV, phone and other LV cables next to standard line voltage cables is not a good idea, it is not a violation.
    Now you seem to be saying something else

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Ellis View Post
    that would fall under article 800.133 section (C) exceptions shieleded cables.
    Residential construction has fallen in quality of scope, because of the small profit margin. that is like using receptacles to carry curent or load on a general circuit. It is allowed but caused resistance in the circuits and excelerates the deterioration rate of the home's wiring. (example attatched)

    and that is an electrical issue waiting to happen, the same as running communication lines with lighting and power lines, 120v energy can be exposed to communication lines under circomstanced caused by weather, rodants or other infestation that can expose communication lines and equipment to 120v energy on the lowvoltage side. I'm saying construction as well, this does not include existing dwellings.

    NEC is the mimimum required, yet after items are installed such as aluminum circuitry from the 60's and early 70's, federal pacific panels, stab back receptacles, halogen interior lights and so many other items and devices that have been found to be defective and or a fire hazard, yet home owners are not required to replace alot of these items before putting their home on the market to be sold.


    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    You stated it is required to have a 6" seperation

    Then you repeated it
    I said it is not a good idea but it is not a voilation
    Now you seem to be saying something else
    NEC 880.44(G)(1)electric light and power.
    The network powered braodband communication cable shall (MUST)have at least 100mm (4") from electric light, power, class 1, or non-power-limited fire alarm circuit conductors not in raceway or cable, or be permantly seperated from conductors of the other system by a continuous and firmly fixed non-conductor in addition to the insulation on the wires.

    NEC 830.44(G)(2)other communication systems.
    Network powered broadband cables shall (MUST) be installed so that there will be no unnecessary interference in the maintenance of the seperate system. in no case shall (MUST) the conductors, cables, messenger strand, or equipment cause abrasion to theconductors, cables, messanger strand or equipment of an other system.

    again this is for contruction side as stated from the first posting.

    maintaining clearances and securing cables during construction minimizes damage and interferances during use and while areas of the raceway (wall chases, attics, crawl spaces, etc..) are accessed or disturbed by the occupant.

    Homes have been burnt to the ground from a person penatrating a wire with a nail while hanging a picture.

    So by your postings you maintain, does it cause a hazard? will it need to be fixed?

    My outlook is CAN it cause a hazard? Was it installed in a professional manner? Will it last under my clients needs for a safe home?


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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    NEC 880.44(G)(1)electric light and power.
    The network powered braodband communication cable shall (MUST)have at least 100mm (4") from electric light, power, class 1, or non-power-limited fire alarm circuit conductors not in raceway or cable, or be permantly seperated from conductors of the other system by a continuous and firmly fixed non-conductor in addition to the insulation on the wires.
    None of the above applies as cables are used and not individual conductors that the article is addressing.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Ellis View Post
    Homes have been burnt to the ground from a person penatrating a wire with a nail while hanging a picture.
    Just how does separating the LV cable from line voltage by 6" prevent someone from driving a nail into an electric cable?


    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Ellis View Post
    So by your postings you maintain, does it cause a hazard? will it need to be fixed?
    It does not cause a hazard
    Again, not a good idea, but it is not a defect therefor it does not need to be fixed

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Ellis View Post
    My outlook is CAN it cause a hazard? Was it installed in a professional manner? Will it last under my clients needs for a safe home?
    I thought you said it was a requirement.
    Is it required or not?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Ellis View Post
    Low voltage such as communication and data lines are also required to be set a minimum of 6" apart when running parallel with electrical and mechanical lines that produce heat.( the magnetic field from 120v energy causes interference and loss of signal) and they should cross perpendicular at junctions.

    Eric not all wiring is required to be in conduit, but fire wall penitrations in multi dwellings such as duplexes or more, basement drops, exposed exterior can be run in types of SE cable or EMT with compression type fitting.
    Just a FYI. Good data (voice included) and video cabling practice is not to run data or video cables parallel or bundled with electrical cables due to induced cross-talk. If bundled with other data cables, due to the higher data speeds, the bundle shall be loose. When crossing an electrical cable they should be at a 90 angle. Not saying you will ever see this, but that is the way it should be done. This is discussed in various sections of the BICSI Telecommunications Distribution Methods Manual.


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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    The last part of this thread started with this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Ellis View Post
    Construction code requires a minimum of 6" clearance between conductors and condutive materials, including insulated lines, or they have to be isolated from each other with anon conductive material. Not all states but a few also require the gas line to be bonded with aground size recommended by panel size such as in california.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Ellis View Post
    Low voltage such as communication and data lines are also required to be set a minimum of 6" apart when running parallel with electrical and mechanical lines that produce heat.( the magnetic field from 120v energy causes interference and loss of signal) and they should cross perpendicular at junctions.
    Norman repeated, several times, that it was required. As it ended up, the 6" separation is *not* "required" for the condition discussed, or even for most conditions run across as it is rare to find single conductors "not in raceway or cable" ... and that is the condition being referenced in that code section.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The last part of this thread started with this:




    Norman repeated, several times, that it was required. As it ended up, the 6" separation is *not* "required" for the condition discussed, or even for most conditions run across as it is rare to find single conductors "not in raceway or cable" ... and that is the condition being referenced in that code section.
    All I can say is read NEC article 800


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Electric lines in contact with coated gas line in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Ellis View Post
    All I can say is read NEC article 800
    And we are saying *read it carefully, understand what it is saying, and what limitations it is placing on what it is saying*.

    Just a quick read, or even a good reading, does not serve the purpose if one does not digest each and every word as each word places limitations on what it *actually* says.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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