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  1. #1
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    Default Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    What is the IRC reference section indicating how the bare copper NM ground should be connected to a light switch? I have a house with every copper lined caped and the 3 way switch doesn't have anything connected to the switch ground. Thanks for helping the newbie.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    There should be a short bare copper jumper from each switch to a wire nut which connects all the bare wires. Usually one of those bare wires is also wrapped around a grounding screw inside the junction box.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Thanks for replying. What you've described (which seems correct) is not what I found in the box. I'm looking through E37XX-E39XX and can't find the appropriate section to cite.


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    3908 & 4001.

    Didn't think Ohio adopted the electrical chapters of the IRC, and instead adopted the NEC.


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Grounding switches was not always required.
    When was the house built?


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    3908 & 4001.

    Didn't think Ohio adopted the electrical chapters of the IRC, and instead adopted the NEC.
    Which or what code reference really should not make any difference on how the grounds are suppose to be connected. The IRC pretty much mirrors the NEC in situations like this and pretty much for everything covered in the IRC. The OP is from South Carolina....

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 10-05-2012 at 06:45 AM.
    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    If the box is metallic and the bare EGC is connected to the box, the two 6-32" mounting screws are permitted to bond the switch to the box.
    With residential wiring, you will not find this in the Southern parts of the US. This is pretty much in union controlled areas.

    Almost everything is NM cable in the South.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    The house was built in 2011. The boxes are plastic.

    Scott, Yes. It's in the south.


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Thanks, Robert. Can you point me to the reference?


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    The exception would be a non-metallic faceplate, right? If a plastic faceplate is installed, the EGC is not required?


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Good point. Thanks!


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin T. Burnette View Post
    Thanks, Robert. Can you point me to the reference?
    The state of South Carolina has adopted the 2006 IRC and uses its electrical section for all 1 & 2 Family electrical. Except, that is a specific issues is not addressed by the IRC, then you are to turn to the 2008 NEC.
    http://www.llr.state.sc.us/pol/bcc/P...0Reference.pdf

    If you are having trouble using the NEC (and it can be quite intimidating), there is a way of using the electrical section of the IRC and then cross-referencing to the NEC.

    Example, in the IRC, you can find grounding continuity at 3908.13. Now look in Appendix Q for 3908.13 and you find that it is cross-referenced to the NEC at Section 250.148.


    To answer you questions, I'm more familiar with the NEC and I'll quote from the 2011 NEC.

    404.9 Provisions for General-Use Snap Switches.

    (B) Grounding. Snap switches, including dimmer and similar control switches, shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor and shall provide a means to connect metal faceplates to the equipment grounding conductor, whether or not a metal faceplate is installed. Snap switches shall be considered to be part of an effective ground-fault current path if either of the following conditions is met:
    (1) The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal box or metal cover that is connected to an equipment ground­ing conductor or to a nonmetallic box with integral means for connecting to an equipment grounding conductor.
    (2) An equipment grounding conductor or equipment bond­ing jumper is connected to an equipment grounding ter­mination of the snap switch.

    250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment Grounding Conductors to Boxes. Where circuit conductors­tors are spliced within a box, or terminated on equipment within or supported by a box, any equipment grounding conductor(s) associated with those circuit conductors shall be con­nected within the box or to the box with devices suitable for the use in accordance with 250.148(A) through (E).

    (B) Grounding Continuity. The arrangement of ground­ing connections shall be such that the disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, luminarie, or other device fed from the box does not interfere with or interrupt the grounding continuity.
    ---
    IRC 3908.2 "exposed (see definitions) noncurrent-carrying metal parts of fixed equipment (the star of the light switch is noncurrent-carrying metal) likely to be come energized, shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor ... "


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Oops, sorry to the other responders. I started to respond, got busy with phone calls, had breakfast and when I returns discovered I hadn't sent my response so I hit enter and that's when I seen the other responses. Wasn't trying to step on anyone's earlier replies.


  14. #14

    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    As I understand the code concerning the grounding of a switch, assuming that the switch is located within a plastic box and is part of a switch loop there is no requirement to ground the switch. Now that being said, I can't think of any good reason not to ground all electrical devices. If a grounding screw and grounding cunductor is supplied wich is usully the case, why not hook it up while in the process of connecting the hot and neutral wires? It is a matter of one extra minute(if your taking your time).

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by George Hallaron View Post
    As I understand the code concerning the grounding of a switch, assuming that the switch is located within a plastic box and is part of a switch loop there is no requirement to ground the switch.
    That is not what it is saying.

    If the strap is metal, it has to be grounded, unless there is no ground present and it is a replacement switch. I.e., the switch is replaced on an older ungrounded system. Then it says that if such switch is located within 8 feet vertically or 5 feet horizontally of the ground or grounded metal, then the faceplate MUST be non-metallic and the attaching screws MUST also be non-metallic - almost all non-metallic faceplates come with metal screws (nylon screws can be purchased separately) ... unless ... unless the strap is non-metallic or the circuit is GFCI protected.

    It also gives a few options on how it can be grounded.

    It also has a two other exceptions, but I doubt you will run across those.

    Basically, if a switch is replaced on an old ungrounded system, the cover plate and its attachment screws should be non-metallic ... unless the circuit is GFCI protected.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    When I posted the profile location looked to be "columbus" or "columbia" no comma, no state. Glasses grabbed in late night wanderings not always crystal clear neither is vision in the wee hours! Didn't mean to move the fella hundreds of miles north and west.

    Either way, provided the locations he asked for from the IRC, repeated by others 8+ hrs later.

    Inspector, student, home owner/home buyer? First time poster, new member, welcome.


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Either way, provided the locations he asked for from the IRC, repeated by others 8+ hrs later.
    And that matters because ... ?

    Many of the posts provided ADDITIONAL information.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    IMO this is simple, a switch requires connection to an EGC. There are various ways to accomplish this and some exceptions. The general rule is that the metallic portion of a switch requires grounding. For most discussions on switch grounding (and the intent of this thread) it could be left at that.
    Just great, now we have someone wanting to stay on topic and keep things simple.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Important to remember that an EGC can be in more than a wire form.
    A strap can be connected to an EGC by direct contact to a metalic box which is grounded, thereby being an EGC.
    A strap can be connected to an EGC where the grounded metalic box is situated such that there is not direct contact with the box, but the device has a listed strap clip that connects the strap to the box (EGC) via the mounting screw.


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Actually for a switch direct contact between the yoke and the box is not required, neither is a self-grounding clip on the switch

    Whaat?


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Not that it will make any difference to you at all, but...

    OP
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    Original post or original poster, the first post or person to post on a topic in an online forum
    OP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Robert Meier,

    If you're willing to pull up a chair and take a moment, you'll find the following discussion thread an "enlightening" read regarding ignoring an OP and his contributions while another stubborn participant goes off-the-deep end defying all logic, remains off-topic and cross posting, without any regard to the original author's time-sensitive need and continued contributions to the discussion.

    clickable link: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...der-joist.html

    Mr. Hannigan,

    Mea Culpa.

    Best of Luck and Success in Las Vegas.

    To the OP (Original Poster),

    Since your location is now clearly in S.C., and you're using the 2006 and not the 2009 IRC, those section citations previously provided (3908 & 4001 were from 2009 IRC (and I failed you in not having indicated so), as I thought you were from the greater Cleveland Area ("columbia") in Ohio as I posted in the wee hours while you were on line.

    For your purposes and most appropriately should have been 2006 IRC references. Please note the correct Section citations from the 2006 IRC are: 3808 and 3901 relating to your questions.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-07-2012 at 09:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Brian,

    My apologies letting it get that far before dropping out of it.

    Good luck on show in Las Vegas.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Robert Meier, the point I assume you're referring to is: "The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal box or...".
    The point I am making is when a switch cannot be 'mounted to a metal box' when the drywall or other is preventing the mounting as such.

    As an AHJ it is my duty to understand the intent of the code as I am charged to interpret such using experience, continuing education, seminars and the like.
    When interpreting the intent, it is important to keep all the code in mind.
    May I submit; All connections shall safely conduct any fault current likely to be imposed upon it. Note that references are made using the word "pressure" such as in pressure screws or wire nuts, lugs etc.
    See also 110.3(6), 110.7, 110.10, 110.12(B) 110.14 and especially 250.2.
    Therefore, keeping all the code in mind convinces me that the relative pressure that an installer utilizes in mounting the device strap to the drywall is subjective in its capacity to conduct any fault current that may become present upon the strap. I therefore interpret the wording "mounted to a metal box with metal screws" to be actually mounted to a metal box, as opposed to mounting to a metal box with drywall or other in between.

    As I stated in my previous post, another method would be a listed integral grounding clip (strap). The code you referenced also mentions the grounding type covers.


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Bob, are you thinking about the part for receptacles in surface mounted boxes vs recessed boxes and extending the same principle to switches? This is how it appears to me.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    effective grounding, effectively grounded

    The requirement has been unchanged since 1999 NEC when the requirement was specified for ALL switches (not just general use snap switches).

    Not all switches are "self grounding". Bob Smit is correct regarding the contact of the yoke to the metal box being required as he's discussing: "TO" requires contact between the surfaces themselves.

    Lets use the "way back machine" for a moment....
    The change goes back to the 1999 NEC in Section 380-9, and should be reviewed concerning the grounding of the faceplates installed on many snap switches. This change requires all general-use snap switches of all types, including dimmer switches, to be effectively grounded. There are two options to accomplish the grounding of the switches. The first option is to connect the switches to an equipment bonding jumper and thus to an equipment grounding conductor that is a part of the circuit. The second option is to mount the switch to a grounded metal box with metal screws or to a nonmetallic box with integral means for grounding the switchdevices installed in the plastic box.

    Anyone who thinks that switches can't move as much or as often as receptacles can move, hasn't done much flat work, school, church, after-school programs, daycare, or light commercial service calls, maintenance or rehab.

    Grounding "screws" require threading and a specified minimum number of threads within for effective grounding. You might get same with the screws into the box regarding depth and number of threads engaged, but you won't get that in every strap mount. Not all are "self grounding" required contact has always been the rule when the strap is conductive and no use of the paper washer you nip off the ears and use same for spacers to assure proper bonding and non-"floating" (moving) switches.

    since pror to the last decade NEC and the UL Standard for safety for switches has required , 380-9(b), snap switches are considered effectively grounded under any of the following conditions:

    1. Mounting the switch TO a metal box with metal screws. (This method of grounding the switch requres DIRECT METAL CONTACT BETWEEN the YOKE of the SWITCH and THE BOX.)
    2. Installation of self-grounding switches Listed for the purpose.
    3. Mounting the switch to nonmetallic box, which has integral means to accomplish grounding.
    4. Terminating the equipment grounding conductor to the equipment grounding terminal on the switch.

    Using and relying on "screws" for effective grounding when the switch yoke is floating (loose) or is insulated (paper "washer" behind yoke on screw post between yoke/strap and metalic box face" is not "effective grounding".

    There is required threading and number of threads required to be engaged for "effective grounding" You arent getting that required engagement with the metal screw through the yoke/strap, the back of the strap has to be in direct contact with the box through ear washers from strap to mount to box or plaster ring face and torqued so as to prevent movement and assure effective grounding.

    Not all snaps are "self grounding" and listed as such.

    When Robert Meier and Jim Port provide backup from UL (and the standard(s) that cover the subject of effective grounding of snap switches and other switches) and in the NEC where their "version" of effective grounding a floating on a screw post (unmounted TO) is endorsed and approved, and meets the standards, I'll bite.

    Its no small wonder some electricians carry on so about AFCIs (and many of the same carried on so about GFCIs) when they're not "getting" "this".

    However, we're way off topic -- the OP has non-metallic boxes, ecg present, NM-B, and three-way switch loop for lighting outlets, a pigtail to the grounding terminal on the switch.


    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-11-2012 at 07:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    I think that must have been written by one of Bill Clintons lawyers. What is "mounted to"?

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    HG, if what you propose is correct, how or why would the NEC allow the face of a metal box to be recessed up to 1/4" in a non-combustible surface? Your assertion would only work reliably with a surface mounted box which is not what the code says.

    I agree with Robert, if your theory was what the CMP wanted they should have spelled it out the same as they did for receptacles. You just cannot add wording that is not in the code.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    HG, if what you propose is correct, how or why would the NEC allow the face of a metal box to be recessed up to 1/4" in a non-combustible surface? Your assertion would only work reliably with a surface mounted box which is not what the code says.

    I agree with Robert, if your theory was what the CMP wanted they should have spelled it out the same as they did for receptacles. You just cannot add wording that is not in the code.
    Jim,

    You are referring to watson and yet stated "You just cannot add wording that is not in the code."?

    You do realize that waton *DOES THAT ALL THE TIME*, don't you?

    I think you may have meant to say 'You can add all the wording you want to what is in the code, but your statements are meaningless that way. If you want your statements to be meaningful and respected you need to not add words which are not in the code.' ... or something to that effect.

    Not to worry, though, I and other make the same "cannot" do something frequently when we actually mean "not allowed".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Multitude states have official interpretations on the subject. IIRC SC has similar. I know MI, WA, CA and several others have.


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Looks like the CMP sees this differently than HG at 11 to 1 against.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Dammm... In my post I listed code references that have been mentioned since, but I missed using the term 'effectively'. Thanks H.G. for mentioning that term as I believe that pretty much sums it up.
    As I stated previously, one must take the whole of the code into account, especially articles 100 - 300.

    I was actually doing my trade till 10:30 last night (supposed to just change out some fixtures in a condo) but due to the hack that had performed the wiring, my conscience kept me there late.
    I couldn't wait to get up this morning and report to y'all.
    Just when I thought it couldn't get any later, I found the stair 3-way system wasn't working and I assumed a homeowner replacement switch was the typical culprit. The contractor utilized metal boxes and when I removed the faceplate I found a loose or otherwise non-effectively grounded switch. The switch was broken at the side terminal.

    My point is this: Finding these issues is nothing new to me as a master electrician, nor as an AHJ. I used the term pressure previously as it is absolutely necessary to achieve effective grounding as we all on this site are fully aware of. To be in conformity with article 110 & 250, the installation must meet this requirement plain and simple.

    Any electrician with some experience will tell of finding various situations where a fault was cleared prior to and/or was cleared without the overcurrent device tripping or was just reset. The result of such left the enclosure, strap, or equipment energized for some unlucky person to be introduced to.

    As one with much experience, I will state that what little contact is afforded by those small 6-32 screw heads is not enough to withstand a 15 amp shot and even more so a 20 amp hit even with some pressure on the strap. I literally blew the end off a screwdriver once because the previous electrician stripped the conductor too long to be enclosed within the 15amp breaker's ears.

    So, as an AHJ I write and will continue to write violations that don't meet the effective grounding requirements with reference to any of the articles mentioned in my previous post.

    As a preemptive reply, if you will, I know we cannot fix stupid or keep the public safe 100% of the time. But there is not a whole lot more code important issues than having sufficient surface area and pressure where fault current can effectively conduct said current to trip/blow the ground fault/overcurrent device. The fact that one can reset/change-out the protective device is not within our control, but does not relieve us of our duty of the practical safeguarding entrusted so.
    Experience also has taught us that small surface areas along with a lack of sufficient pressure will clear the fault by evaporation of the parent metal. Thus, when the breaker/fuse is reset/changed respectively, the hazard is still present.

    I apologize for going on about.... H.G. did mention we're off topic. It is looking for a loop hole in my opinion when the whole of the code is ignored just to save a little time during installation leaving those with whom we are charged to protect at risk.
    Remember our discussion on the post where one of our HIs on this site discovered a panel cover with a burned mounting screw (or something to that effect)?
    Using and referencing articles 110-300 is not writing one's own code, it is fulfilling the code's intent.


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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    Bob, you're entitled to your opinion however from where I sit someones opinion is not the NEC and not enforceable. As stated many times in this thread a switch mounted to a grounded metal box by nothing more than the two-6-32 screws is code complaint even if the yoke does not directly contact the metal box. Maybe in your jurisdiction you're free to enforce something that doesn't exist in the code language and do so because in your opinion it's a good idea, but for most of us who are required to follow the letter of the NEC, opinions are not enforceable.

    You are so full of it! Nothing in the subarticle you rely upon superceeds the requirements elsewhere within the article (404), nor does it superceed the requirements of 314 nor the myriad requirements of 250.

    The defintions in article 100, and the definitions in article 250 APPLY.
    You MAY NOT remove or ignore the multi-word phrases or snip off one of those qualifying words of a defined term.

    Are you along with Port and Peck, intentionally obtuse? You mayNOT "invent" your own code language. You may NOT IGNORE the requirements for bonding and the defintion and the allowed means to accomplish "effective ground-fault current path".

    You may NOT ignore that 250 is specifically envoked in 404, nor that 250 applies.

    Nothing in Article 404 superceeds or re-defines requirements for grounding and bonding.

    T250.3 is appropriately titled "Addtional Grounding and Bonding Requirements" I suggest you look-up what "additional" actually means (hint it doesn't mean "instead")

    Nothing in Article 404 superceeds 250, in fact 250 is specifically envoked; nor re-defines or superceeds requirements of 314, in fact it is specifically envoked.

    404.10(B) requires SEATING in your OFF-TOPIC (to the OP) example.

    You continue to ignore part I of 250, most especially the first four subarticles, you IGNORE 404.10, 404.12 (which are in addition to not instead of 250 requirements) article 314, especially 314.4, 314.20 and most especially 314.22 (and the final phrase of the last sentance of its exception).

    250.8(A)(5).Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.
    (A) Permitted Methods. Grounding conductors and bonding jumpers shall be connected by one of the following means
    (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage NOT LESS THAN TWO THREADS or are secured with nut.

    404.10 Mounting of Snap Switches
    (B) Box Mounted. Flush-type snap switches mounted in boxes that are set back of the finished surface as permitted in 314.20 SHALL be installed so that the extension plaster ears ARE SEATED AGAINST THE SURFACE. Flush-type snap switches MOUNTED IN BOXES that are FLUSH with the FINISHED SURFACE or PROJECT FROM IT SHALL BE INSTALLED so that the MOUNTING YOKE or STRAP of the switch IS SEATED AGAINST THE BOX.

    You also need to pay attention to all of 314, specifically 314.4, 314.20 and most especially 314.22 AND its exception.

    Yes, cut-and-pasters who fail to read all of an article, fail to recognize defined terms (which include phrases) and fail to grasp the distinctions with differences of a four-word defined phrase and a three-word defined phrase by ignoring the first word of the phrase, those who "think" any sub-article stands alone, or any article stands alone, or any chapter stands alone within the NEC - should most likely not be given the time of day.

    The entirety has gone far afield of the actual OP's question, circumstances, etc. and I am more than disgusted by Port, Meier's obtuse and malicious disinformation. It is also abundantly clear why they both so dislike AFCI requirements - as if either are or were active in the trade - it is no wonder they have (and others similarly lost or confused as to the requirements of 250) such difficulties where it comes to AFCIs, and even GFCI installations and/or retrofits, blaming the equipment and the technology!

    The requirements of Chapters 1-3 are not superceeded by 404.





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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    Bob,

    Where in this section does it anything about pressure? It says mounted to a grounded metal box with metal screws.

    A metal box mounted in drywall can have the mudring set back up to 1/4". A switch mounted in that box does not require direct contact between the yoke and the mud ring and also the switch is not required to be self grounding with a clip on the 6-32 mounting screw. There other sections of the code, receptacle grounding for example, that use specific wording like self grounding devices and direct metal to metal contact between the yoke and surface mounted box. The grounding of switches doesn't go as far as to use such wording. If you want to hang your hat on the word pressure that's OK (we'll have to disagree) but you can certainly tighten the 6-32 screws enough to provide adequate pressure even if the yoke does not contact the mud ring.

    If the NEC wanted to require switch grounding as you've suggested then it would say so, just as it has spelled out for receptacles.
    Not without some other means or provision for the grounding and bonding of YOUR example metal yoke or strap on switch in metal box! Loose, non-seated, or seated but insulated, in any case relying on less than two screw threads in a metalic yoke won't cover it. Relying on washers which can fall off when the screw is removed or loosened doesn't cover it either.

    The requriement exists in 404, in the very next sub-article section.

    You are ignoring 404.10(B). Your statements are false. Selective blindness and ignoring the terms used in the sub-article sub-section you saw fit to selectively (not even fully) quote earlier. Furthermore 404.9 does NOT stand alone.

    Additional subarticle sections within further address grounding and bonding and additional requirements relative to the installation of equipment relative to switches (the rest of 404).

    The highlighted above is not only unsupported "opinion", it is false, and contradicts the next subsection of Article 404, and contradicts & misrepresents what the quoted subsection actually says. The article envokes Article 250 and 314. It also specifies additional requirements beyond what is found in Chapters 1-3 where switches are installed. The article (404) envokes Article 250, it further envokes 314. You further ignore the "word phrases" which are specifically defined as "terms".

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-14-2012 at 10:02 AM.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    Watson, you can jump up and down and scream loader than the rest of us and you would still be wrong. All you need to do is turn the two little 6-32 mounting screws that connect the switch to the grounded metal box, nothing more. The information and the reason (in red) is right there is the words of the guys would write the NEC, the CMP in post #38. I rest my case.
    Negative!

    The switch yoke/strap (ears) must be SEATED AGAINST the metal box, extension, or ring which is in contact. There are not two threads engaged in the strap itself to the screw. It may not "float" as you claim. If you are relying on the first HALF of 404.9(B) then you MUST meet 404.10(B), which pertains to the MOUNTING TO the OFF-TOPIC METAL BOX you injected into this converstion - 404.10(B) further requires meeting 314 provisions which further bring you to 314.22 and you still have to meet the 250 requirements of "effective ground-fault current path" envoked by 404.9;. Your stupendous example (multiply "enhanced) does not meet any of the exceptions to 404.9(B). Your stupendous example does NOT meet 250.8(A) and does not meet the requirements of 404.9(B) - with that switch yoke/strap NOT SEATED AGAINST the metallic BOX, a nut on the screw post behind the switch strap which is seated, a listed installed box extension, or plaster ring. No one has disputed that the mounting screw post wouldn't make two thread engagement with the box, listed box extension, or plaster ring - it is the engagement to the yoke or switch strap which doesn't meet 250.8 or 404.10 when NOT SEATED, by itself.

    Mounting of switch to box is addressed in 404.10 YOU KEEP IGNORING the requirements of same. The CMP has not ignored 410.10, 314, nor 250 - they simply chose to not address the obvious - that which is already required - i.e. SEATING - when mounting, which is under their perview - nor the requirements of 250 nor the requirements of 314 - also not under their perview. They do address additional requirements for switches not covered by Chapters 1-3 and which are special and unique and IN ADDITION TO what is summarily required for all installations, and those which are unique and special to switch installations not covered by other articles.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-14-2012 at 10:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    Watson, you can jump up and down and scream loader than the rest of us and you would still be wrong. All you need to do is turn the two little 6-32 mounting screws that connect the switch to the grounded metal box, nothing more. The information and the reason (in red) is right there is the words of the guys would write the NEC, the CMP in post #38. I rest my case.
    That's because the NEC people are not as smart as watson, and they don't ask his permission for making their decisions.

    To the contrary to what watson says, the NEC people determined, and specified, that switches are not required to be grounded in the same manner as receptacles.

    Yes, watson seems to think that his tirades and insistence on being correct result in him actually being correct. That is how fairly tales start.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That's because the NEC people are not as smart as watson, and they don't ask his permission for making their decisions.

    To the contrary to what watson says, the NEC people determined, and specified, that switches are not required to be grounded in the same manner as receptacles.

    Yes, watson seems to think that his tirades and insistence on being correct result in him actually being correct. That is how fairly tales start.
    Watson NEVER said such a thing. That's peck disingenously mischaracterizing what has and has not been said, and by whom.

    Peck, Port, and Meier have yet again outright falsified the nature of the discussion, and yet again mischaracterized and selectively snipped, ignoring defined terms in the NEC, a portion of a subarticle and misapplied it yet again.

    None of you can defend the three of you ignoring 404.10(B), nor the entirety of 404, let alone 404.9. You can't defend your having ignored all of 250 Part I either.

    You're also relying on an outdated cmp report.

    404.9(B) does not use "effective grounding" it uses the (UPDATED 250) term "effective ground-fault current path" which reflects the revised Article 100 definitions, and the revised Article 250 (Grounding and Bonding) terms therein defined, and the revised provisions of article 250.

    You're looking back to interim (and mistaken) CMPs application of erroneous application and distinctions with a GREAT difference. Requirements and language - STICK WITH language and panel statements that PERTAIN to the OVERALL edition of the NEC that you erroneously apply.

    The NEC functions as a model code in the whole. I brought forth from when it was intiially required. You're still not applying CORRECTLY even the edition snippets you three cut-and-paste. Injecting in inapplicable non-enforcable panel statement is stupendous. There was no need to change the language as proposed - IT WAS and IS already covered. Those that intentionally and stubbornly ignore the various style guide editions pertaining to the NEC can make stupendous "arguments" - they are non-the-less INVALID and INCORRECT.

    I'm done with this off-topic diversion. The continued diversion by those who cannot legitimately debate or discuss the FACTS and who misrepresent what a model code edition actually states, or the content of another's post is a waste of time.

    Bob Smit: as they say, those who remain ignorant (history/mistakes) are doomed to repeat same.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-14-2012 at 11:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    404.10 Mounting of Snap Switches
    (B) Box Mounted. Flush-type snap switches mounted in boxes that are set back of the finished surface as permitted in 314.20 SHALL be installed so that the extension plaster ears ARE SEATED AGAINST THE SURFACE. Flush-type snap switches MOUNTED IN BOXES that are FLUSH with the FINISHED SURFACE or PROJECT FROM IT SHALL BE INSTALLED so that the MOUNTING YOKE or STRAP of the switch IS SEATED AGAINST THE BOX.
    The surface mentioned could be the drywall that is up to 1/4" proud of the box. This is only calling for the mounting ears to be flush to the drywall.

    If the box is flush with or proud of the surface the yoke needs to be against the box.

    It appears that we have someone with limited or less field experience trying to decipher technical documents without the needed background. I would certainly expect the CMP that voted on the proposed change to be able to understand the issue and make a more informed decision than a generalist.

    I know we will see thing differently, but I am going to defer to the expertise of a CMP decision or the reasoned voice of an industry professional before someone that rants and shouts "I know more than you do" and totally discounts or feels the need to disparage the knowledge of others.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    H.G., this is why I bowed out after my explanations, both as a seasoned licensed Master Electrician and a registered Electrical Inspector/Plan Reviewer, not mentioning my formal education.
    You have stated more info than necessary and in more ways that I have patence for, which I applaud.
    We do have to contend with those who cherry-pick the codes in effect time to time, but not on this site.
    Should they attempt to pass such an installation as a homeowner in the future, they will find their work rejected by the AHJ.
    I will leave it at that.


  40. #40
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    Post Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    I've been reading this on-going discussion about what is and is not grounding, and thought I would look and see what Mike Holt has to say about it. I like to reference Holt as I can't think of a single, better expert when it comes to things electrical. You may disagree, but my opinion is the only one that matters.

    In his "Understanding the National Electric Code" (2008), on page 418 he states:

    "(1) Mounting Screw. The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal box or a metal cover that is connected to an equipment grounding conductor of a type recognized in 250.118."

    "Author's Comment: Direct metal-to-metal contact between the device yoke of a switch and the box isn't required."



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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Webber View Post
    I've been reading this on-going discussion about what is and is not grounding, and thought I would look and see what Mike Holt has to say about it. I like to reference Holt as I can't think of a single, better expert when it comes to things electrical. You may disagree, but my opinion is the only one that matters.

    In his "Understanding the National Electric Code" (2008), on page 418 he states:

    "(1) Mounting Screw. The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal box or a metal cover that is connected to an equipment grounding conductor of a type recognized in 250.118."

    "Author's Comment: Direct metal-to-metal contact between the device yoke of a switch and the box isn't required."
    Well that makes it quite obvious that he does not know as much as others on this forum.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Light Switches - Bare Copper Wire

    Maybe someone needs to learn Charlies rule, excuse the paraphrase, "Sometimes the NEC says something different than what you think you know".

    Robert, if you can post the correctly phrased version it might help. Thanks

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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