Thread: Replacing un-grounded receptacles

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Why not install gfci outlets instead of ungrounded?

Rick

If there are metal boxes present, is there also bx? If so (and if the panel is grounded), aren't the boxes grounded?

What's the status of the electrical code in GA regarding TR (tamper resistant) receptacles? especially if you're renting the unit out?

Its going to be darn tuff to find a TR 2-blade receiving polarized receptacle - since AFAIK NOBODY makes one. Generally the big box chains aren't going to carry an old-style receptacle. Best bets are the franchised Ace Hdwre, or other independant or a resale.

Its not that hard to replace a box with a 2-gang and a reducing plaster ring and do some plaster or wall board repair.

Intending to rent out not reside in, most areas require using licensed contractors; exceptions for occupants or residents, plumbing, electrical, etc. not landlords who don't reside on-site. Must be in the sticks.

30 yrs electrician working at a big-box, priceless.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Yes, metal boxes and some BX.
Did not show up as being grounded.

This is what there is
1 was cloth no ground
2 were BX no ground
1 was NM no ground
2 were NM with ground
I think the outlets I replaced were BX

Is the panel grounded? Is there continuity from the metal boxes to the panel?

I'm sure you have your own opinion, but in my opinion (if financially possible), because of all of the hodge podge you seem to have, I would suggest biting the bullet and rewiring the house.

Once it's done, you will be happy you did it. You just bought the house and an upgrade here and there makes sense to me. Where I come from, landlords that want to just milk the property are called slum lords.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Steven
Why is it that a home owner can have anything and it's accepted, but a landlord is a slumlord if anything is out of order.

Low income housing does not equate to slums.

Frankly, I thought you knew me better than to say something like that.

I did not intend to call you a slum lord, if it appears that way, please accept my apology.

I am sure that when all is said and done; the elect will be up to par and healthy.

As far as why homeowners can get away with something..., for the very same reason that I had to pay a gas bill for a tenant that did not pay rent for 1-1/2 years.

What happen?

Rick didn't like being called a slumlord, took his ball and went home

When you are renting homes, apartments whatever to folks you have to be extremely careful about what you say. If something is not written just right and then someone that you don't want to read it does....well!!!!!

Besides. Nothing wrong with being a slum lord as long as it is a nice legal and clean slum...just kidding. Rick has fine homes I am sure.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson

Rick didn't like being called a slumlord, took his ball and went home

Ben, I know you are joking but for the record; when I used the term slumlord I was not implying that Rick is a slumlord. What was really going through my mind was that not fixing things like electrical, especially when renting will cause a building (thus the owner) to fall into that category.

Just the fact that rick was discussing the condition is certainly an indication that it is on his mind. I'm sure whatever he decides to do will be safe and acceptable.

What happen?

Wow, that went downhill fast.

I wonder if it had anything to do with Ricks tag line.


' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

I don't think Steven was dissing you Rick, or trying to get personal. It appears to me to have been a generalization about 'some' landlords who let their propertys go downhill and don't bother taking care of them.
Because you are asking about the electrical sure suggests to me that you intend on taking care of your place.

Huh? Do you think he is worried about what any of us think?

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Huh? Do you think he is worried about what any of us think?

I don't think Rick is worried, but I'm sure he cares. There is probably a very good reason why he has not been here. Perhaps he is just busy or caught up in something. i'm sure he'll be back.

Lots of good info. available on the thread subject. Regarding the potential to offend someone, the possibility is high. Text does not always serve intent well. Inflection, volume, tone, facial expression, body language, etc. are all unavailable. Imagine a language like Chinese that is almost exclusively single syllable words to realize how important non-text communication can be. When I try humor, for example, I forget no one can see me smiling. Best, I believe, to ask a straight forward question on intent, rather than to entertain hard feelings.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

What happen?

Read below

Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson

Rick didn't like being called a slumlord, took his ball and went home

Kinda, but a little more

Originally Posted by Chris Weekly

I wonder if it had anything to do with Ricks tag line.

' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

Not quite sure what you mean

Originally Posted by Chris Weekly

I don't think Steven was dissing you Rick, or trying to get personal. It appears to me to have been a generalization

I agree, I took it personally and should not have, but still should not have been said

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Huh? Do you think he is worried about what any of us think?

Of course I care what you think.
OK I'm a bit naive, I think of (most) you guys as friends.
If it were some horses ass in Peru that called me a slumlord it would not mean much if anything too me.

Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky

I don't think Rick is worried, but I'm sure he cares.

See I was right, you do know me.

Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky

There is probably a very good reason why he has not been here.

No, not a good reason, I was just pissed and had to walk away from it.


I think now that Steven did not intend it to be personal, and I should not have taken it that way, but as I said, you guys are my friends and I did not expect that anyone of you would say that of me.

I am and we are your friend(s). I'm glad you realize I did not mean any personal insult towards you. But the reason I didn't mean it that way has nothing to do with friendship. It is because after reading and communicating with you (and some others here) for quite some time now, I respect you.

Now, how about a big wet kiss!!!

Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky

I am and we are your friend(s). I'm glad you realize I did not mean any personal insult towards you. But the reason I didn't mean it that way has nothing to do with friendship. It is because after reading and communicating with you (and some others here) for quite some time now, I respect you.

Now, how about a big wet kiss!!!

Come here Bugger Lips

ways to correct

Just a thought...
There are people on this forum who intend / try to offend. I think anyone who has been here awhile knows who they are. I don't see any of them in this thread. Before you take offence, consider who posted the comment.
We all post stupid things occasionally.
Glad everybody's buddies again!

Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson

Just a thought...
There are people on this forum who intend / try to offend. I think anyone who has been here awhile knows who they are. I don't see any of them in this thread. Before you take offence, consider who posted the comment.
We all post stupid things occasionally.
Glad everybody's buddies again!

I take offense to your post.

Sorry. I "assumed" from your answers that you weren't trying to offend Rick. I guess I was incorrect.

Replace all 2 wire house wiring with 3 wire so GFIC will function? I think it would be so much easier to run a #10 to a junction panels in attic and basement then run 12 Ga to every outlet concerned from there. Don't meet the code? Maybe not but, meets the safety
needs.

Originally Posted by james hiatt

Replace all 2 wire house wiring with 3 wire so GFIC will function?

GFCIs do not require a ground to function.

They require a ground to remotely test them, but they do not require a ground to test them by their test button or for them to work properly.

GFCIs work properly on two-wire ungrounded circuits.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

GFCIs do not require a ground to function.

They require a ground to remotely test them, but they do not require a ground to test them by their test button or for them to work properly.

GFCIs work properly on two-wire ungrounded circuits.

I can't see it and have to temporarily disagree.

I can not believe all the diaologue on this topic.

There are two methods to correctly replace ungrounded receptacles,

1) Rewire the branch circuits from the panelboard to the outlets with a cable containing a ground conductor.

2) Use GFCI recptacles in place of the ungrounded receptacles and you MUST label these GFCI receptacles as ungrounded.

I saw an earlier post that suggested "Code" didn't matter. Please stand in front of a judge and tell that you didn't think it mattered and you were sorry someone died in the fire, HOW MORONIC.

Also, the reason you cannot simply create an earth ground at each outlet is because code does not allow that. Or maybe that does not matter either.

Ground must be continous and originate at the panelboard for the entire system.

Jerry, please forgive for me going off the deepend on this one. Usually I sit back and watch you fight the brave fight.

Originally Posted by james hiatt

I can't see it and have to temporarily disagree.

James,

What part can't you see, or is it understand, about GFCIs protecting un-grounded receptacle outlets?

The way a GFCI works is that there is a coil (a small CT, Current Transformer) in the GFCI, both the neutral and the hot conductor run through that coil, being as the current through the magnetic fields of the neutral and the hot cancel each other out, there is no current flowing, however, when there is a ground-fault and some of the current is flowing through anything other than the return conductor (let's just say the current is flowing to ground through a person), then there is more current in one of the conductors than in the other conductor (which conductor has the lesser current depends on where the ground-fault is).

With less current flowing through one of the conductors through the coil, the magnetic fields no longer totally cancel out and current is generated in the coil. The trip mechanism is calibrated such that 5 ma of current difference between the neutral and hot conductors generates enough current in the coil to cause the tripping mechanism to trip.

Okay, that is not "exactly" and "definitively" what is inside a GFCI, but that is a basic description of how the GFCI works.

5 ma (plus or minus 1 ma) of current difference between the neutral and the hot conductor causes the GFCI to trip ... no ground is needed.

The test button creates that internal 5 ma bypass at the coil and thus causes the GFCI to trip, again, no ground is needed.

However, when remote testing a GFCI with a GFCI tester, the GFCI tester is actually creating a 5 ma ground-fault and thus it requires a ground to trip the GFCI remotely.

Does that help?

Think of it as two water hoses connected together and each has the same pressure on it - no water flows. Now poke a small hole in one hose and let some water out onto the ground (a ground-fault ), that reduces the pressure in that hose and now water will flow - not much water will flow, but some will.

Not sure if that is easier to visualize what is happening in the GFCI?

Originally Posted by Donald Farrell

Ground must be continous and originate at the panelboard for the entire system.

.

The grounding means is allowed to originate at other locations also, not just the panel where the circuit originates.

I surrender- forgive me for my ignorance. You treatise is excellent and most helpful. I understand now that should I feed another regular outlet from a GFIC, it must have a ground connection between the two and to other std outlets on that line. I think the largest help is finding out a GFIC will protect (people) without a ground and, protecting electronics without a ground wire is a no-no.
Removing a ten foot sink cabinet and wall to access the wiring is also a no-no. Jim Pope added that a ground can be had else where. I prefer a ground wire everywhere , also being up to code. Mixed emotions! Thank you all!

Originally Posted by james hiatt

I surrender- forgive me for my ignorance. You treatise is excellent and most helpful. I understand now that should I feed another regular outlet from a GFIC, it must have a ground connection between the two and to other std outlets on that line. I think the largest help is finding out a GFIC will protect (people) without a ground and, protecting electronics without a ground wire is a no-no.
Removing a ten foot sink cabinet and wall to access the wiring is also a no-no. Jim Pope added that a ground can be had else where. I prefer a ground wire everywhere , also being up to code. Mixed emotions! Thank you all!

The part in blue is incorrect. A grounding means does not need to connect between the GFI and any downstream receptacles.

Here's what I tell buyers with the "deer in headlight" look when trying to explain the significance of an ungrounded outlet and what their options are - I'm throwing it out there to share and also to see what the consensus is as to if it holds water (is accurate?)

Basically, a GFI on an ungrounded curcuit protects people (most important) but not electronics (less important but can be expensive) due to absence of a ground wire. The reason for the little blue stickers (rarely found) is to warn you that you are risking your electronics.

About 75% of the time the next question from the buyer is, "Can't I just get a surge protector?" - Answer, "Nope, with no ground it won't work - the surge protector needs the ground to discharge the excessive electricity."

The "No Ground" sticker is to alert you that even tho the receptacle has the appearance of being grounded that it is not.

The lack of a ground is not an issue since most cords are still two prong anyway. It is an issue for surge protection.

Help me out here because I appear to be dumber then a post this morning.

Exactly where in the NEC, 2005, 2008, 2011 editions can you find permission to have two grounds from different origins connected to the same branch circuit.

Here's a term you might recognise, "Ground Loop" or even "Dirty Ground"

On my way out, but if two circuits are contained in the same junction box, the grounds must be connected together.

I find all of this just a bit out of date anyway..

What year did they pretty much, for the mass majority of homes, stop installing 2 prong receptacles? The next question is. What year is it now. Decades and decades later we are still fighting the battle of whether to upgrade or not.

The argument or just statement that "the majority of cords are only two prong anyway" is decades outdated. Anyone can plug or want to plug any appliance or LED or computer or printer or or or or into what unless there is a three prong properly grounded receptacle. The mass majority of home owners is going to go by an adapter which does nothing in most cases or install a three prong receptacle with no proper grounding.

Those are just the fact and that education nees to be relentlessly brough to the home owners. Not "most cords are two prong anyway". That statement should not come from the lips of a home inspector. Upgrade, upgrade, upgrade is all that should come from a home inspectors lips.

Do you advise more insulation. Add insulation or complete opening cover for pull down stairs. GFCI receptacles in any wet area. Solid core or metal 20 minute door with weather stripping for safety from garage to home. Upgrade single pain windows. How about the proper glass at low windows. Proper roof ventilation etc etc etc etc etc.

Yeah I know. The answer is yes to all of that. I advise my clients to upgrade all receptacles. Whether is be from two prong to three prong and properly grounded, GFCI,Arc Fault etc. It is the only thing you should be doing. Not advising or brushing off decade old, possibly dangerous situation, efficiency situations etc.

Advise advise advise.

Do I tell my clients that they absolutely have to as it is law. Of course not. But I do not use Realtor friendly terms either. My knowledge transfers to my clients. That is what they are paying us. Advise based on our knowledge and expertise in numerous fields, like all, of building and maintaining a home in the most efficient and safest manner.

This is not about. Well, the standards say that I must comment on this this and that and I cannot extend my knowledge beyond that.

To tell folks that they should and it is OK to just leave all items in the home because after all, it was good enough then and it is good enough now is ludicrous.

You might as well tell them to pull all insulation back away from knob and tube, update connections that are looking a bit rough and everything is just ducky. Who cares if it IS actually dangerous in many instances or that insulation they pull back all thru the attic is killing there heating and cooling efficiency.

Hooah, I love the smell of Napalm in the morning

Just Sayin!!!!

"Around these parts", you are allowed to replace like with like in an older home when it comes to outlets. This is considered repair work. If you are upgrading, adding circuits, or outlets, then all affected work has to conform to current codes. So, if doing repairs on an older home that has some damaged two blade outlets, you are allowed to replace them with new two blade outlets.

On my own fixers, I have never done like to like outlet replacement. I always upgrade the electrical. But I see it while doing inspections on fixed fixers. I'm told that finding new two blade outlets is easy although they aren't available at big box stores.

Originally Posted by james hiatt

I surrender- forgive me for my ignorance. You treatise is excellent and most helpful. I understand now that should I feed another regular outlet from a GFIC, it must have a ground connection between the two and to other std outlets on that line. I think the largest help is finding out a GFIC will protect (people) without a ground and, protecting electronics without a ground wire is a no-no.
Removing a ten foot sink cabinet and wall to access the wiring is also a no-no. Jim Pope added that a ground can be had else where. I prefer a ground wire everywhere , also being up to code. Mixed emotions! Thank you all!

Originally Posted by Jim Port

The part in blue is incorrect. A grounding means does not need to connect between the GFI and any downstream receptacles.

James,

The reason Jim is correct is that the ground-fault in a receptacle downstream from the GFCI will show up at all points upstream of the ground-fault, once the GFCI trips off, as long as the downstream receptacles are wired as "feed-through" the GFCI receptacle and not "by-pass" around that GFCI, the GFCI will trip off and all power is cut to everything downstream of the GFCI.

This is from the 2011 NEC, Article 406

(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment
to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the
receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with
(D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)(c).
(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(
s).
(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interruptertype
of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
“No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor
shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-
type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the
ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s)
where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the groundfault
circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected”
and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding
conductor shall not be connected between the grounding type
receptacles.