Thread: Anyone know of any inherent issues with this panel?

Anyone know of any inherent issues with this panel? Sylvania brand. House built in 1985 and panel appears original. There were several electrical issues in the house unrelated to this panel, however I am wondering if anyone has heard of known issues with this specfic panel. See photos.

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Zinsco style breakers started off being black, then color coded switches, then back to black.

Zinsco, GTE, Sylvania.

How to Identify Zinsco & GTE Sylvania-Zinsco Electrical Panels & Circuit Breakers

Older panels older standards, ratings calculated not tested as modern standards. Less wiring room. In this case, same "issues" buss, breakers, panelfront adj. The cobustible more than 1/8" thick (0.125 inches) cardboard slipped/shimmed in between flush deadfront cover (apparent attempt at non-permanent circuit directory) and wall finish is a "not-so-nice" DIY ammendment further increasing hazards and reducing safety.

Thanks H.G.

Gene

That's not a Sylvania / Zinsco panel.

It's a Sylvania / Challenger.
Sylvania sold their Challenger line in the mid- '80s, and was it's own for a while. Then it was sold to Westinghouse, which became Eaton - Cutler Hammer.

There's a GE breaker in the panel for the dryer circuit You might want to read the label, and see if it's listed for use with the Challenger panel.

Hi Al, yes, I knew it was not the Zincso Stab-Lok design but was not sure if the challenger design had inherent issues. Thanks for pointing out the Challenger model and the breakers.

Thanks

Gene

Stab-lok was an FPE, not a Zinsco.

Zinsco type "Q" circuit breakers are the ones in question on the report Mr. Watson gave.

I'm not aware of any inherent issues with the Challenger panels or breakers. They were pretty much the same as any other brand of the era, with the exception of Sq type QO or Cutler Hammer type CH.

Thanks Al.

Gene

That panel and breakers are OK. Well, as OK as any electrical over current device can be! You don't know how good it is until you need it!

I don't believe so at the top. The two sets of poles near the top appear gray-market and do not fit properly.

The rule was 30 max pole stabs for 150 A main under mid 80 standard (if panel marking allowed). Less for less. The earlier 80 rules ratings based on 10A per stab. I can't make out a single marking in the panel - everything is blurred when blown up. I believe the panel has more than three mfg. sourced breaker mfg's. "if it fits" isn't good enough. Two sets obviously don't "fit" properly. If we could get a CLEAR view of the label and diagram, I suspect only 6, 8 or 10 positions could have been twinned at the bottom, depending on the main, the application, and the rating.

H.G., send me your email address and I will email higher resolution photos.

Yep, definitely NOT the Zinsco type with the 'L' shaped bus bar and the breakers which fit across the panel on both bus bars and have a tendency to weld themselves to the bus bars and/or arc and burn the bus bars all the way through.

That looks like Sylvania / ITE / etc as the names changed.

Article 408.4 (A) Circuit Directory not filled out
Article 110.3 (A) &(B) manufactures' instructions

The main breaker is a Zinsco design, they were used in a lot of loadcenters*, not really sure if I would call it a defect though.


*Milbank still uses a Zinsco clone that was formerly Unicorn.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Yep, definitely NOT the Zinsco type with the 'L' shaped bus bar

The Zinsco bus bar is not 'L' shaped.

It's a completely flat bus, about 1/8" to 3/16" thick, and 1" to 1-1/4" wide.

Originally Posted by Al Neuman

The Zinsco bus bar is not 'L' shaped.

It's a completely flat bus, about 1/8" to 3/16" thick, and 1" to 1-1/4" wide.

Al,

The Zinsco bus in the Zinsco panels which have the problems is 'L' shaped.

The slots in the breaker, and the contacts in those slots, slide onto the up turned leg of the 'L' bus.

Now, a Zinsco bus in a Zinsco/ITE (ITE design bus and breakers) is neither 'L' shaped nor flat as you describe, it is of the more 'typical' bus design.

Jerry,

Look at the bus

http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco/Zinsco07.jpg

I've replaced dozens of these due to the pitted bus bars

Here's some other views

http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forum/el/rfm3.jpg
http://www.ismypanelsafe.com/link/im...o_panel_01.jpg

Originally Posted by Al Neuman

Here's some other views

http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forum/el/rfm3.jpg
http://www.ismypanelsafe.com/link/im...o_panel_01.jpg

Al,

I've got to say that those straight bus bars are new ones on me ... while I haven't seen many Zinsco panels (I've only seen a thousand or so Zinsco panels ) and have NEVER seen those flat-style bus bars before, the only bus bars I've ever seen in Zinsco panels were the 'L' style, those photos do shown breakers which look to be Zinsco breakers and do have flat bus bars.

Zinsco did move from their original manufacturing location to California (if I recall correctly), maybe those flat bus bars are a result of that move and Zinsco making make changes to their panels?

Guess we both need to add another couple of words to our vocabulary: 'most/many' Zinsco panels have ... bus bars.

It is said that one should never say "never" (even that saying says "never") and that one should never say "always" ...

Jerry,

I've never seen any of the 'L' bus here in Ca.& I, like you, have seen 1000s.

Zinsmeyer, the founder of Zinsco, moved to LA in the 1920s and the Company was always based on the West Coast.


I agree......
Never say Never

Electrical Panel Replacement Experts = Serving South Florida

. . .

We wrote a paper regardgn the issues with ZinscoTM, including SylvaniaTM, GTETM, GTE-SylvaniaTM, MagnetripTM, and KearneyTM . I don't see where I can attach it as a reply. If you would like a copy, email me at carlm@sequoiains.com. It has good pictures also. Here are some excerpts from the paper:
ZinscoTM or GTE-SylvaniaTM Zinsco (or Kearney) circuit breakers and electrical panels, manufactured until the 1970s, may not offer reliable protection against fire, shock, and other hazards related to circuit overload. Industry reports indicate that as many as 25%-75% of all ZinscoTM circuit breakers could fail to trip in response to an over-current or short circuit. (The normal rate of failure for circuit breakers in residential electrical panels is less than one percent.) Though these breakers may sometimes trip properly during normal over-current conditions, failure to trip becomes increasingly likely over time, and overheating and burning occurs frequently. Burning and overheating can damage the circuit breaker so that it no longer operates properly and fails to trip when needed in an over-current situation, increasing the risk of fire. In some cases, all the circuits remained energized even after the main breaker or individual circuits had been shut off; in other cases, current continued to flow to the circuits even after the corresponding circuit breakers had been shut off. One report described a situation where the device had been wired incorrectly; a properly-functioning breaker would have tripped, but the ZinscoTM breaker did not. Incident reports also describe arcing, burn-outs at the contact points, and even some blow-outs of the panel box where the circuit breakers are housed.
The affected circuit breakers and panels are labeled with various brand names, including any of the following, alone or in combination: ZinscoTM, SylvaniaTM, GTETM, GTE-SylvaniaTM, MagnetripTM, and KearneyTM. Most have a silver, or silver and blue, foil label. The words “Zinsco,” Sylvania,” or “Magnetrip” may be stamped or embossed on the panel. (Figures 1, 2, 3, and 4) Inside the panel box, the circuit breakers often have bright blue, red, and green tabs.
Circuit breakers are designed to break, or interrupt, an electrical current when there is too much current for the electrical line to carry safely, or when other unsafe conditions exist, such as during a power surge or return of power after an outage.
When the circuit breaker fails to trip, uncontrolled current may flow through the system, causing overheating and increasing the risk of fire and damage to electrical equipment and electronic systems, and increasing the risk of injury or death to persons working on the equipment, or present in the building. (Figures 5-10)

Most brands and models of circuit breakers sold in the United States function properly, and provide reliable protection for many years in the buildings where they are installed. However, industry experts have identified a few older brands that under normal conditions can fail to function correctly. Published reports indicate that one line of circuit breakers and electrical panels known as ZinscoTM (also known as GTE-SylvaniaTM Zinsco or KearneyTM, referred to hereafter simply as “ZinscoTM”) do not provide adequate protection against over-currents or short-circuits, thus creating hazardous conditions in the buildings where they are installed.
Hazardous conditions and events have been reported where ZinscoTM electrical panels and circuit breakers are in use, including:
Corrosion of the bus bars (corrosion seems to occur more readily than in other brands)[/font]


· Loose breakers, poor connection, and arcing between breakers and bus bars· Improper tripping, especially delayed tripping or failure to trip
·Overheating, burning, and melting
· Blow-out of the circuit breaker case during an “arc explosion”
·Possible failure to cut power when the breakers are switched off

Though production of ZinscoTM electrical panels and circuit breakers ended in the mid-1970s, they remain in use in many homes and other buildings throughout the United States. Industry reports indicate that as many as 25% of all ZinscoTM circuit breakers could fail to trip in response to an over-current or short circuit.

The normal rate of failure for circuit breakers in residential electrical panels is less than one percent. While all products will experience some failures due to aging, ZinscoTM products are reported to fail at much higher rates than comparable products of standard design and by other manufacturers

According to published technical reports, the critical problem with ZinscoTM breakers is a failure at the point where the circuit breaker contacts clip to the electrical panel bus. ZinscoTM breakers and panels appear to be more vulnerable both to corrosion and to loosening over time, making the connections unreliable and dangerously unpredictable. These conditions can cause arcing and overheating even during normal use

The circuit may carry an overload for a long time without tripping as it is designed to do. During the prolonged overload that occurs as a result of failure to trip, the circuit breaker will overheat. The heat can cause the breaker to melt, sometimes fusing to the bus bar at the contact point, and in extreme cases, fusing the breakers together. When this happens, the circuit breakers cannot function to break the current that is flowing in from the outside, and the overheating will continue, leading to fire in the panel box and beyond.

This scenario is most likely to occur on breakers for circuits that power major appliances (such as clothes dryers, electric ranges, electric water heaters, etc.), or those that feed power to rooms where circuits are often overloaded (such as kitchen or bathroom).
The problem is also more likely in panels where the bus bars are made of aluminum, though problems have also occurred in panels with copper bus bars. These products are also reported to be more than usually vulnerable to the effects of moisture, which accelerates corrosion and thus increases the hazard.
Most Zinsco breakers and panels in active use today are obsolete. The technical standards that were in place in the 1960s and 1970s have long since been updated to strengthen requirements for safety and quality, and the ZinscoTM products so not meet these upgraded standards

Visual inspection cannot identify defective circuit breakers, unless they are already burned or corroded. Property owners should engage a licensed, qualified electrician to conduct a comprehensive electrical inspection and make recommendations.


CAUTION!

Only a qualified, licensed electrician should attempt to move or remove any of the circuit breakers or other components inside the box, especially a panel on the exterior of the building. If there is no main breaker, then the power supply must be disconnected by the power company before the circuit breakers can be removed for inspection. Remember that in some cases, ZinscoTM panels may appear to be shut off but may still be “hot."

Potential defects in ZinscoTMcircuit breakers are not visually apparent, and a visual inspection cannot determine whether the breaker is working correctly or not, even when the panel cover is removed.

Obvious signs of overheating (scorch marks, burns, darkened or discolored areas, soot inside the case, melted parts or insulation); indicate that the breakers are not functioning properly and that the situation is imminently hazardous. However, there may be no sign that overheating, damaged or loosened circuits, or other damage has occurred. The absence of burns, scorches, etc., does not imply that the circuit breakers are free from defect and functioning properly.

Live-current functional testing can be extremely hazardous, as it creates dangerous current overload conditions in the building. In addition, running an overload test on a ZinscoTM breaker can actually intensify its inherent hazard, as the overload may cause the breaker to jam, increasing the risk that it will fail to trip in the future.


Other warning signs of hazardous conditions that may precede a failure of the breakers and other components may include corrosion or oxidation; humming, buzzing, popping, cracking, other abnormal sounds, or strange odors.

Toggling the ON-OFF switch does not test the ability of the breaker to function in actual overload or short-circuit conditions and cannot reliably identify which units are functional and which are not. Only live-current functional tests – evoking overload and short circuit conditions for each breaker (one pole at a time for two-pole breakers) – can determine the operating status of each breaker. Field electricians, inspectors, and property owners are not trained or equipped to do this sort of testing. In addition, the cost of this sort of testing would likely exceed the cost of replacing the entire panel with newer, safer equipment.

The condition of the circuit breakers is best assessed by a qualified, licensed electrician during a comprehensive electrical inspection. If ZinscoTM panels are present, ask the electrician to assess their condition and make a recommendation to ensure the safety and reliability of the electrical system in the building

The Electrical Safety Foundation International suggests that an electrical inspection should include more than a simple visual check. A careful inspection might include the items shown in the checklist on the next page. If the electrician conducts only a visual inspection, seek another electrician who will carry out the testing described above.

Replacing the entire circuit breaker panel with all-new equipment may be the safest, easiest, and most cost-effective solution for properties where these circuit breakers and boxes are still in operation. (Figure 11) Property owners will need to cover the replacement costs (typically $750 to $3000). This may include coordinating with local utility company to suspend service to the building during replacement. (The work must be done be a licensed electrician.) However, your electrician may suggest other courses of action.

While it may be tempting to replace individual ZinscoTM breakers with “replacement” or “compatible” ZinscoTM breakers, this is not advised. Do not use “refurbished” or “replacement” ZinscoTM breakers; many of these are salvaged and not safe to use. Do not use “new old stock;” this is the original product; that is, it’s the same as the product that needs to be replaced. Use only new UL-listed equipment from a reliable manufacturer. The entire panel may need to be removed and replaced.[/

Property owners who choose replacement will need to cover the costs (typically $750 to $3000). This may include coordinating with local utility company to ensure suspension of service to the building during replacement.

In my area, probably 40% of the panels are a form of Zinsco/Sylvania. I have seen both "L" shaped and flat buss bars on these.

Originally Posted by Gene South

Anyone know of any inherent issues with this panel? Sylvania brand. House built in 1985 and panel appears original. There were several electrical issues in the house unrelated to this panel, however I am wondering if anyone has heard of known issues with this specfic panel. See photos.

They are close to junk. In my reports I advise clients to replace them.

I had one in my home and it failed two years ago. My house was built in 1982 and is near you in Plano.

Originally Posted by Carl Morello

We wrote a paper regardgn the issues with ZinscoTM, including SylvaniaTM, GTETM, GTE-SylvaniaTM, MagnetripTM, and KearneyTM . I don't see where I can attach it as a reply. If you would like a copy, email me at carlm@sequoiains.com. It has good pictures also. Here are some excerpts from the paper:
ZinscoTM or GTE-SylvaniaTM Zinsco (or Kearney) circuit breakers and electrical panels, manufactured until the 1970s, may not offer reliable protection against fire, shock, and other hazards related to circuit overload. Industry reports indicate that as many as 25%-75% of all ZinscoTM circuit breakers could fail to trip in response to an over-current or short circuit. (The normal rate of failure for circuit breakers in residential electrical panels is less than one percent.) Though these breakers may sometimes trip properly during normal over-current conditions, failure to trip becomes increasingly likely over time, and overheating and burning occurs frequently. Burning and overheating can damage the circuit breaker so that it no longer operates properly and fails to trip when needed in an over-current situation, increasing the risk of fire. In some cases, all the circuits remained energized even after the main breaker or individual circuits had been shut off; in other cases, current continued to flow to the circuits even after the corresponding circuit breakers had been shut off. One report described a situation where the device had been wired incorrectly; a properly-functioning breaker would have tripped, but the ZinscoTM breaker did not. Incident reports also describe arcing, burn-outs at the contact points, and even some blow-outs of the panel box where the circuit breakers are housed.
The affected circuit breakers and panels are labeled with various brand names, including any of the following, alone or in combination: ZinscoTM, SylvaniaTM, GTETM, GTE-SylvaniaTM, MagnetripTM, and KearneyTM. Most have a silver, or silver and blue, foil label. The words “Zinsco,” Sylvania,” or “Magnetrip” may be stamped or embossed on the panel. (Figures 1, 2, 3, and 4) Inside the panel box, the circuit breakers often have bright blue, red, and green tabs.
Circuit breakers are designed to break, or interrupt, an electrical current when there is too much current for the electrical line to carry safely, or when other unsafe conditions exist, such as during a power surge or return of power after an outage.
When the circuit breaker fails to trip, uncontrolled current may flow through the system, causing overheating and increasing the risk of fire and damage to electrical equipment and electronic systems, and increasing the risk of injury or death to persons working on the equipment, or present in the building. (Figures 5-10)

Most brands and models of circuit breakers sold in the United States function properly, and provide reliable protection for many years in the buildings where they are installed. However, industry experts have identified a few older brands that under normal conditions can fail to function correctly. Published reports indicate that one line of circuit breakers and electrical panels known as ZinscoTM (also known as GTE-SylvaniaTM Zinsco or KearneyTM, referred to hereafter simply as “ZinscoTM”) do not provide adequate protection against over-currents or short-circuits, thus creating hazardous conditions in the buildings where they are installed.
Hazardous conditions and events have been reported where ZinscoTM electrical panels and circuit breakers are in use, including:
Corrosion of the bus bars (corrosion seems to occur more readily than in other brands)[/font]


· Loose breakers, poor connection, and arcing between breakers and bus bars· Improper tripping, especially delayed tripping or failure to trip
·Overheating, burning, and melting
· Blow-out of the circuit breaker case during an “arc explosion”
·Possible failure to cut power when the breakers are switched off

Though production of ZinscoTM electrical panels and circuit breakers ended in the mid-1970s, they remain in use in many homes and other buildings throughout the United States. Industry reports indicate that as many as 25% of all ZinscoTM circuit breakers could fail to trip in response to an over-current or short circuit.

The normal rate of failure for circuit breakers in residential electrical panels is less than one percent. While all products will experience some failures due to aging, ZinscoTM products are reported to fail at much higher rates than comparable products of standard design and by other manufacturers

According to published technical reports, the critical problem with ZinscoTM breakers is a failure at the point where the circuit breaker contacts clip to the electrical panel bus. ZinscoTM breakers and panels appear to be more vulnerable both to corrosion and to loosening over time, making the connections unreliable and dangerously unpredictable. These conditions can cause arcing and overheating even during normal use

The circuit may carry an overload for a long time without tripping as it is designed to do. During the prolonged overload that occurs as a result of failure to trip, the circuit breaker will overheat. The heat can cause the breaker to melt, sometimes fusing to the bus bar at the contact point, and in extreme cases, fusing the breakers together. When this happens, the circuit breakers cannot function to break the current that is flowing in from the outside, and the overheating will continue, leading to fire in the panel box and beyond.

This scenario is most likely to occur on breakers for circuits that power major appliances (such as clothes dryers, electric ranges, electric water heaters, etc.), or those that feed power to rooms where circuits are often overloaded (such as kitchen or bathroom).
The problem is also more likely in panels where the bus bars are made of aluminum, though problems have also occurred in panels with copper bus bars. These products are also reported to be more than usually vulnerable to the effects of moisture, which accelerates corrosion and thus increases the hazard.
Most Zinsco breakers and panels in active use today are obsolete. The technical standards that were in place in the 1960s and 1970s have long since been updated to strengthen requirements for safety and quality, and the ZinscoTM products so not meet these upgraded standards

Visual inspection cannot identify defective circuit breakers, unless they are already burned or corroded. Property owners should engage a licensed, qualified electrician to conduct a comprehensive electrical inspection and make recommendations.


CAUTION!

Only a qualified, licensed electrician should attempt to move or remove any of the circuit breakers or other components inside the box, especially a panel on the exterior of the building. If there is no main breaker, then the power supply must be disconnected by the power company before the circuit breakers can be removed for inspection. Remember that in some cases, ZinscoTM panels may appear to be shut off but may still be “hot."

Potential defects in ZinscoTMcircuit breakers are not visually apparent, and a visual inspection cannot determine whether the breaker is working correctly or not, even when the panel cover is removed.

Obvious signs of overheating (scorch marks, burns, darkened or discolored areas, soot inside the case, melted parts or insulation); indicate that the breakers are not functioning properly and that the situation is imminently hazardous. However, there may be no sign that overheating, damaged or loosened circuits, or other damage has occurred. The absence of burns, scorches, etc., does not imply that the circuit breakers are free from defect and functioning properly.

Live-current functional testing can be extremely hazardous, as it creates dangerous current overload conditions in the building. In addition, running an overload test on a ZinscoTM breaker can actually intensify its inherent hazard, as the overload may cause the breaker to jam, increasing the risk that it will fail to trip in the future.


Other warning signs of hazardous conditions that may precede a failure of the breakers and other components may include corrosion or oxidation; humming, buzzing, popping, cracking, other abnormal sounds, or strange odors.

Toggling the ON-OFF switch does not test the ability of the breaker to function in actual overload or short-circuit conditions and cannot reliably identify which units are functional and which are not. Only live-current functional tests – evoking overload and short circuit conditions for each breaker (one pole at a time for two-pole breakers) – can determine the operating status of each breaker. Field electricians, inspectors, and property owners are not trained or equipped to do this sort of testing. In addition, the cost of this sort of testing would likely exceed the cost of replacing the entire panel with newer, safer equipment.

The condition of the circuit breakers is best assessed by a qualified, licensed electrician during a comprehensive electrical inspection. If ZinscoTM panels are present, ask the electrician to assess their condition and make a recommendation to ensure the safety and reliability of the electrical system in the building

The Electrical Safety Foundation International suggests that an electrical inspection should include more than a simple visual check. A careful inspection might include the items shown in the checklist on the next page. If the electrician conducts only a visual inspection, seek another electrician who will carry out the testing described above.

Replacing the entire circuit breaker panel with all-new equipment may be the safest, easiest, and most cost-effective solution for properties where these circuit breakers and boxes are still in operation. (Figure 11) Property owners will need to cover the replacement costs (typically $750 to $3000). This may include coordinating with local utility company to suspend service to the building during replacement. (The work must be done be a licensed electrician.) However, your electrician may suggest other courses of action.

While it may be tempting to replace individual ZinscoTM breakers with “replacement” or “compatible” ZinscoTM breakers, this is not advised. Do not use “refurbished” or “replacement” ZinscoTM breakers; many of these are salvaged and not safe to use. Do not use “new old stock;” this is the original product; that is, it’s the same as the product that needs to be replaced. Use only new UL-listed equipment from a reliable manufacturer. The entire panel may need to be removed and replaced.[/

Property owners who choose replacement will need to cover the costs (typically $750 to $3000). This may include coordinating with local utility company to ensure suspension of service to the building during replacement.

FWIW - Carl's White Papers on the FPE and Zinsco (GTE/Sylvania lineage) are very good papers and well written with excellent image documentation.

I shared them with Douglas Hansen and he commented what I noted in the above graf.

.