Thread: New FPE Article

We have a new article on FPE at our web site:

Articles by the Code Check team

Thank you

Douglas Hansen
Code Check- Help With Building Codes

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Originally Posted by Douglas Hansen

We have a new article on FPE at our web site:

Articles by the Code Check team

Thank you

Douglas Hansen
Code Check- Help With Building Codes

Doug.. Great information..
You have this note on the articles

" This article can be downloaded and printed. Please contact us for permission if you wish to place it on a web site."

Do we need permisson to put the links only [ on our reports] , to your web site for the customer to follow up on your information?

Originally Posted by Dan Harris

Doug.. Great information..
You have this note on the articles

" This article can be downloaded and printed. Please contact us for permission if you wish to place it on a web site."

Do we need permisson to put the links only [ on our reports] , to your web site for the customer to follow up on your information?

Please do link it in your reports. You could also include the article itself, not just the link, or you could print it out and hand it to your clients. All we ask is that if you post it on your own web site to please notify us first. There could be situations where we would say no, though those would likely be related to commercial use.

We think this is important public safety information that should be available. We didn't invent the research that went into that article; it reflects the combined efforts of many people over a long period of time, including the contributors to Inspection News. All we did is compile it in a form that can be distributed.

Last, I am sure the readers of Inspection News will let me know of any corrections that are needed. On our site, we post the date of the latest update of the article.

Thank you

Douglas Hansen
Code Check- Help With Building Codes

I read your article yesterday. It's the most concise compilation of the problems with FPE panels and components that I've read in one source. Also, I appreciate the commentary about the defense of FPE panels, even if I wonder what those folks have been smokin'.

Great article... How about one for Zinsco?

Douglas, Thank you for the work on this.

No offence to you Douglas (great article) but it seems Katen has had a little more bad experience with FPE than is believable. As a journalist, this stuff should be independently verified, not just reported.

Doug, Great article. Thank you for compiling and completing the research. I really enjoy reading and referring clients to your articles.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson

No offence to you Douglas (great article) but it seems Katen has had a little more bad experience with FPE than is believable. As a journalist, this stuff should be independently verified, not just reported.

Would you like Jim's phone number?

Apparently you do not know Jim.....

Fantastic information, thank you. I run across these panels frequently and having this article on hand is a great asset.

Scott

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Would you like Jim's phone number?

Apparently you do not know Jim.....

The article itself is excellent with great information.
I just think the inclusion of anecdotal hype reduces the credibility of the article and is something I would not be comfortable with sharing with clients.
Obviously just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson

The article itself is excellent with great information.
I just think the inclusion of anecdotal hype reduces the credibility of the article and is something I would not be comfortable with sharing with clients.
Obviously just my opinion.

Funny, I couldn't disagree more, but then I have my own story about FPE breakers.

Doug, Great article as always.

I know there is even more data that is coming out on this, Zinsco as well as other breakers.

Thank you Don.

I found a couple of significant typos on page 4 of the article, and updated it today. If you would like to download it again please do so.

I think Benjamin raises a good question regarding anectodal evidence. As everyone who knows Jim Katen would agree, there is no questioning his integrity on this issue, and I have no doubt that his experiences are accurately told. That said, it would be great if we didn't have to rely on these stories from the field, and there was some laboratory testing from a recognized testing lab, such as UL. The point to the whole FPE story is that the testing that took place at the time was fraudulent, something even FPE admitted to, and that no properly funded investigation was ever completed. That is why we have had to do our own research.

Benjamin, I'm sorry if you think the inclusion of these reports detracts from the article. The whole point of Jim's story is that he was basing his opinion on personal experience, and that gives him a lot of company in the world of electricians and inspectors. FWIW, that portion of the article is not included in the new edition of Electrical Inspection of Existing Dwellings. Once I figure out the logistics of our blog, I am going to open a place for folks to contribute their own FPE story. Several contributors to Inspection News have already shared their experiences.

Douglas Hansen
Code Check- Help With Building Codes

Originally Posted by Douglas Hansen

FWIW, that portion of the article is not included in the new edition of Electrical Inspection of Existing Dwellings.

Douglas,

Is your new book out? I have been impatiently (as you well know) waiting for it for a while now.

Very good article, thanks for sharing!

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

Douglas,

Is your new book out? I have been impatiently (as you well know) waiting for it for a while now.

Thanks Gunner. It's getting close. The final proofing, layout, photoshop work, and other touches always take longer than anticipated. We will be taking discounted pre-orders for another week. I will let you know when it ships.

Douglas Hansen
Code Check- Help With Building Codes

Doug,

I have run into an inspector who claims that FPE issue is over hyped and that there is an agenda against FPE by Dr. Aronstein and Dan Friedman.

I told maybe he should talk to you also, but said you must of relented to political pressure.

I thought that one was very funny.

Originally Posted by Don Hester

Doug,

I have run into an inspector who claims that FPE issue is over hyped and that there is an agenda against FPE by Dr. Aronstein and Dan Friedman.

I told maybe he should talk to you also, but said you must of relented to political pressure.

I thought that one was very funny.

It would be interesting to know if there are any statistics on house fires caused by FPE panels, It shouldn't be that hard to find out.
No actual field stats are ever mentioned in any of these articles, only anecdotal info like Jim's. I'm sure if you took the time and trouble you could find burnt and arced breakers of any brand.
Now, I'm not an FPE fan, but some statistical backup would be appreciated.

OK, I need to rant a bit more:
What this is about is empirical evidence.
If there is no emperical evidence that FPE panel boards and breakers start fires or result in electrocution, you shouldn't claim in your report that that is so.

I guess you could state that some testing has shown that the breakers don't trip properly or there is some evidence of arcing, etc, on panels that were selectively examined.

If you start with the hypothesis that FPE breakers are problematic, you would collect evidence of that by examining some panels and breakers (as Douglas has adrimably done) and you may conclude that they are a hazard without any evidence of the fires or electrocutions you are warning about!

Sorry, by scientific method, you are still at the hypothesis stage, not the conclusion stage!

I don't want to rain on the parade, but Douglas hasn't "proved" anything. This is a good start, but examining a handful of breakers and panels means nothing. This needs to be followed up with real-world evidence that there is a safety issue. If that evidence is not there then it is a non-issue.

This was my point about the original article. In the absence of empirical evidence, Douglas included the hyperbolic anecdotal "evidence" of a home inspector to make his argument more convincing. He cheapened his available evidence and made it clear that this is a crusade and not a scientific investigation.

I would love to see real world fire / safety statistics that FPE panels should be replaced. It would certainly make our job easier. Douglas' work is a start but it isn't an answer.

What I want to know is, how many houses have burned as a direct result of an FPE panel?
If nobody can answer that, why is it being debated?

I’m baffled Benjamin. The definition of empirical in my dictionary is:
1 : originating in or based on observation or experience
2 : relying on experience or observation alone, often without due regard for system and theory
3 : capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment

In other words, Jim’s observations about his experiences with FPE breakers are an example of an empirically derived opinion. That is what he states in his anecdote, that his opinions are based on his experience, and not on my theories.

Perhaps the word you meant was actuarial. Insurance companies deal in actuarial data. NFPA and the insurance industry compile many statistics on electrical fires. Unfortunately, the brand of the equipment is not one of the things recorded. Though you may think “it shouldn’t be hard” to find the specific number of FPE fires, it would actually be impossible. What we do know is that only 5% of residential electrical fires occur in homes less than 10 years old. We also know that the two most popular brands of plug-in breakers from the mid-1950s to the early 1980s were FPE and Zinsco. The insurance industry is very keen on this issue, and carriers have begun to deny coverage or impose restrictions when one of these brands is present.

I am confused by your characterization of “scientific method.” I have not started with a hypothesis. What I have done is parse the categories of problems in an attempt to explain the rather overwhelming amount of damning data that is out there. The article quotes the 23% failure rate on the latest batch of 470 breakers in data submitted to CPSC. That is consistent with the percentages found in the earlier studies (which included brand new breakers) and by breaker resellers. Probably the most important research into this was provided by FPE themselves, when they were forced to disclose that $100 million a year of breakers were sold with fraudulently obtained UL listings. When FPE found that their products couldn’t pass the UL tests, they didn’t redesign the product. Instead, they built test apparatus that faked the results. That is why the New Jersey Superior Court ruled they had violated New Jersey’s consumer fraud safety act. I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that because they got away with it for a while, there wasn’t really a problem.

Most electricians I know refuse to work on FPE equipment. Few of them started off their careers with that attitude. It is something they gain after a few experiences with these things. I put in a few of these myself back in the 1970s.

My purpose in writing the article, and in not copyrighting it or weighting it down with redundant statistics, was to have something that inspectors could download and print to hand to their clients. I am convinced that getting this information out there will save lives, and that we needed something that condensed it all into one succinct piece, without sending folks on long searches through the various web sites on the subject. If you think there is something inaccurate in there, please let me know so that I can fix it. So far, I haven’t heard anything except your displeasure with the inclusion of Jim’s account of his actual experiences with FPE.

Douglas Hansen
Code Check- Help With Building Codes

Ben, gathering the available statistics on FPE panels sounds like a great project. Please post the data so soon as you can. Looking forward to it!

My own opinion on FPE panels, based on my own observations and experience, is that they are a fire waiting to happen. Of the dozens of FPE panels I have inspected, all have had serious issues ranging from lose breakers that literally fall out when the panel cover is removed to evidence of molten metal at breaker stabs.

Some years ago, while on site in Berrien County, I located an FPE panel that had been "recycled" to be used as a sub-panel for a garage. The home belonged to the then acting fire chief of the Benton Harbor Fire Department. The FPE concerns were discussed directly with the owner, due to the nature of the problems these panels exhibit and their history.

The panel was replaced the next day. It is now in my shop, and I have taken it apart several times to remind myself what these panels can do. With the panel cover in place, there is no sign of a problem. With the panel cover off, there are some very minor signs of overheating. Once the breakers are removed, it is possible to see the melted main bus, the heat-damaged and cracked breakers, and the unmistakable signs of arching electricity.

As far as I am concerned, that is some pretty darned good empirical evidence. Looking forward to that data, Ben, as soon as you can pull that together. Thanks for keeping this issue out there, Douglas. I am still finding them!

Sorry all for the rant. Especially Douglas who has contributed so much to our field. And you are correct that there was nothing wrong with your methodology or conclusions.
My experience with electricians is different. It's frustrating to have electricians tell clients (or more often, homeowners that have been asked to replace the panel) that there is no evidence of real-life issues with the breakers and panels. And clients that ask how many fires or injuries have resulted from the FPE panels.
Maybe I'll work on that Randy! I have asked local fire departments and they say they don't know of any. Seems there must be records of this somewhere, but Iguess Douglas would have uncovered them.

It would be great if insurers would stop covering homes with these panels, it would certainly make our job easier.

Another issue that may be present is that if the breaker does not fail safe when needed the fire may start in another location at the weak electrical location/connection.

This can lead the investigator to believe the cause is somewhere else other than the panel. The panel/breakers could contribute to the condition.

I have had a funny thought on all of this. We have no problem recommending to our clients that roof is old/bad and needs replacement or the HVAC system is at the end of it life and needs replacement. Why should we not be telling our clients that these panel are antiquated and need replacement.

The electrical panel is actually way cheaper to replace, go figure.

Originally Posted by Don Hester

Why should we not be telling our clients that these panel are antiquated and need replacement.

The electrical panel is actually way cheaper to replace, go figure.

As soon as you say that, their next questions will be, "So, is it OK? Is it safe?"

I used to have electricians disagree with me, but in recent years, they seem to have finally gotten up to speed on them. Funny to me, that I have had to educate a few electricians about these things. I think many tradespeople do nothing more than keep up with code changes and otherwise, operate in a vacuum.

I have seen several hundred of these panels over the years. I have only seen one with a blatant failing breaker. I have never had breakers fall out although I am very careful pulling the covers off. But I don't do forensic work when I look at these. I don't remove breakers to look for burns or melting. I don't whip out the IR camera to look for overheating. I am a little surprised when I read some of you guys who have so many stories about them. Still, I write them up, because of the preponderance of evidence about them.

I had a GE breaker in my own house fail to trip when I stupidly put a screw through a wire in the wall. When I opened up my wall, it was solid black inside from the shower of sparks. A bad breaker can be found in any brand, but that is far different than the 23-25% failure rate found with FPE panels. You are a fool if you don't write them up and worse, you're not protecting your clients from a well known ticking time bomb.

I looked at one last week in a condo, that looked like it was installed the day before. It looked perfect. I explained the problem to the buyer and I wrote it up.

Lon agreed.

I think there will be some information coming out that may even expand the issue from just FPE and Zinsco.

I think many older panels really should be upgraded.

[It would be great if insurers would stop covering homes with these panels, it would certainly make our job easier.[/QUOTE]

Ben, I've heard second hand of a couple of insurance companies that won't insure a house with a FPE panel box.

I stopped gathering articles and info on these panels a long time ago and no longer hand out info to clients on the matter. I simply tell them that these panels and the breakers in them have had a serious amount of concerns in the past. I also tell them I do not test breakers or pull breakers. I know some will love this but I instruct my clients to have an electrician do a more thorough examination on these panels and their breakers.

I simply cannot even tell you the vast amount of these panels I have seen arcing in. I cannot tell you of the arcing heard when I have cautiously pulled the front cover off of these panels.

I know a couple years ago there was a fire in Flower Mound or was it Farmers Branch that was directly linked to an FPE panel. I cannot tell you of articles and court cases and others personal experiences with these panels including countless electricians and electrical suppliers.

There has been so much information that has been passed along in one manner or the other that I do not hesitate to turn it over to an electrician to pull it apart and do a much more involved inspection on these panels. By the way I am not sure an electrician has ever disputed the fact that these panel systems are hazardous.

I no longer need articles to convince me or to try to convince my clients. I have also never had any negative back flap from anyone recommending that these panels be investigated.

Think Ford Pinto. Don't hesitate on passing on all you have heard or read in the past to your clients.

Insurance companies do and have produced information regarding FPE panels. I've attached a White Paper one from Sequoia Insurance.

They have also provided me with another White Paper on the Zinsco products we oft-times see at our inspections.

Nolan,

Could I see their Zinsco paper?

Also are these document for public distribution?

Originally Posted by Don Hester

We have no problem recommending to our clients that roof is old/bad and needs replacement or the HVAC system is at the end of it life and needs replacement. Why should we not be telling our clients that these panel are antiquated and need replacement.

I used to do that quite often - electrical panel is old and needs to be replaced ... electrical panel is an FPE and needs to be replaced ... electrical panel is a Zinsco and needs to be replaced ... etc.

Jerry,

I agree, but it seems that the Realtors and some inspectors feel that they are just fine and dandy. But since this is not a norm people get a bit more uptight on the recommendation.

Not that I really care if they do

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

As soon as you say that, their next questions will be, "So, is it OK? Is it safe?"

I used to have electricians disagree with me, but in recent years, they seem to have finally gotten up to speed on them. Funny to me, that I have had to educate a few electricians about these things. I think many tradespeople do nothing more than keep up with code changes and otherwise, operate in a vacuum.

I have seen several hundred of these panels over the years. I have only seen one with a blatant failing breaker. I have never had breakers fall out although I am very careful pulling the covers off. But I don't do forensic work when I look at these. I don't remove breakers to look for burns or melting. I don't whip out the IR camera to look for overheating. I am a little surprised when I read some of you guys who have so many stories about them. Still, I write them up, because of the preponderance of evidence about them.

I had a GE breaker in my own house fail to trip when I stupidly put a screw through a wire in the wall. When I opened up my wall, it was solid black inside from the shower of sparks. A bad breaker can be found in any brand, but that is far different than the 23-25% failure rate found with FPE panels. You are a fool if you don't write them up and worse, you're not protecting your clients from a well known ticking time bomb.

I looked at one last week in a condo, that looked like it was installed the day before. It looked perfect. I explained the problem to the buyer and I wrote it up.

Very similar to my experience except for the "electricians getting up to speed".
I remember going into a local electrical supply a few years ago, they were still selling the breakers and had a few surplus panels that were "new" for sale. I questioned them about FPE, they showed me the branch panel for their portion of the building, an FPE. They didn't have light switches and turned the circuits on and off to control the lights. The guy bragged to me how they had been turning the circuits on and off this way every morning and evenig for 20 years and the breakers held up fine and how great FPE equipment was.
Now, these guys were hardware hawkers, not electricians, but that seems to be the mindset, even with many electricians.
No problems = no problem.
The insurance info is also very helpful. If one can truthfully report that insurance coverage may be an issue, it opens everyones eyes.
Funny that people can live with the idea that their house may burn down but not with the idea that it wouldn't be covered.

I am a home owner who just bought a house with an FPE panel. I looked at the Consumer Product Safety Commission Report of 1983 which is referenced in this article. I also saw that the CPSC updated their 1983 Report in 2011. The update is not addressed in this article and, at least in my view, this is a material omission.

John, I would plan on replacement. In most cases this is a great time to clean up the panel and have a new, more current panel.

If it was my house I would have an electrician over and replace soon.

Originally Posted by John Cochran

I am a home owner who just bought a house with an FPE panel. I looked at the Consumer Product Safety Commission Report of 1983 which is referenced in this article. I also saw that the CPSC updated their 1983 Report in 2011. The update is not addressed in this article and, at least in my view, this is a material omission.

There is nothing "official" stating that FPE panels are recalled or even must be replaced. Replacement is an industry recommendation based on a long verifiable list of problems with the panels and breakers. A fellow home inspector finally got around to replacing his FPE panel in February and the found the back of the main breaker melted. Yowza!

But now he has a great visual aid and story for his inspections.

Originally Posted by John Cochran

I am a home owner who just bought a house with an FPE panel. I looked at the Consumer Product Safety Commission Report of 1983 which is referenced in this article. I also saw that the CPSC updated their 1983 Report in 2011. The update is not addressed in this article and, at least in my view, this is a material omission.

It's called politics!! Call your insurance agent and make sure you have replacement coverage on your home and contents! Then call an electrician. Then if you had a home inspection call that inspector and ask them why they did not say anything about the FPE panel, I bet you will hear crickets chirping in the background. Now if you did not get a home inspection because you did not not want to spend a few hundred dollars on one, that savings is only going to cost you a couple thousand if you are lucky.