Thread: See any issues with Electrical Panel ?

Does anyone see any issues with this 2002 Cutler Hammer 200 Amp electrical panel? The green ground wire is going to ground rod and the copper wire is going to copper pipe.

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Originally Posted by Sam Morris

Does anyone see any issues with this 2002 Cutler Hammer 200 Amp electrical panel? The green ground wire is going to ground rod and the copper wire is going to copper pipe.

I see 2 neutrals in 1 terminal, also 1 neutral and 1 ground in several terminals.

What Rick said, the branch circuit grounding conductors should not be shoved in with the neutrals at all.

Only one neutral wire per lug and two ground wires of the same gauge per lug, is allowed.
I can't tell from the photo; are the two neutral and ground bars bonded together?

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

Only one neutral wire per lug and two ground wires of the same gauge per lug, is allowed.
I can't tell from the photo; are the two neutral and ground bars bonded together?

Yes, silver bar going out from main breaker

The white insulated wires going to breakers should be marked with black or red tape, permanent marker, or something to indicate that they're being used as hots - at both ends of each of those circuits. Is the grounding cable going to the copper water pipe connected within 5 ft. of where the pipe enters the building? On the right side, 3rd and 4th breakers up from the bottom, are there two circuit wires each going to the same breakers? If so, that's not right either, although some Square-D's can have that if the wires are both the same gauge.

This is how I report the 2 issued described above...........

Hazardous = Neutral/Ground Buss Bars improperly tapped.
Hazardous = Hot white wires not re-designated.

Recommend specialist further evaluate/correct.

KISS............ Let an electrician sort it out, although I will explain further to my clients who have a chance of grasping what I'm telling the.

Bruce Low
Bottom Line Home Inspection
Luxemburg, WI
The Bottom Line - Through an Engineer's Eyes

[QUOTE=Sam Morris;214357]Does anyone see any issues with this 2002 Cutler Hammer 200 Amp electrical panel?

It only has a 3 wire SE cable coming in to service the panel. It should have been a 4 wire.

I would wonder what the gray wire is on the right. Additionally, the branch circuit wires coming in are adequately secured outside the panel.

Originally Posted by Larry Quick

It only has a 3 wire SE cable coming in to service the panel. It should have been a 4 wire.

Ummm....NO! Only a few places around the country require an outside disconnect. Most simply come from the meter to the panel. So two hots and an insulated neutral are correct fro this installation. As would be SEU cable.

Originally Posted by Bruce Low

This is how I report the 2 issued described above...........

Hazardous = Neutral/Ground Buss Bars improperly tapped.
Hazardous = Hot white wires not re-designated.

These two issues. White on a breaker and neutral/ground in the same hole.

OK, they are non-complaint installs today, and in recent years. BOTH of these things WERE NOT code required not too long ago (I do think it was before 2002 though) and many older guys were hard pressed to break the habit of installing like this.

To call them a "hazard" is a bit over-dramtic and reactionary. If the panel were 5-10 years older it would be a perfectly legal and safe installation.

Yesterday, I saw a panel with three aluminum neutrals under one lug and multiple double lugged neutrals. Several hots and neutrals wires had melted insulation. Not to mention seven disconnects to turn the house off.........and more.

Today, I got an email from the seller, telling me that the electrician said that all this was "grandfathered" since it was inspected and done to code when the house was built in the mid 60's.

He said he'd tighten the lugs in the panel to stop the melting insulation. What a guy!

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

These two issues. White on a breaker and neutral/ground in the same hole.

OK, they are non-complaint installs today, and in recent years. BOTH of these things WERE NOT code required not too long ago (I do think it was before 2002 though) and many older guys were hard pressed to break the habit of installing like this.

To call them a "hazard" is a bit over-dramtic and reactionary. If the panel were 5-10 years older it would be a perfectly legal and safe installation.

I don't quite get what your saying here. I agree, calling them a hazard is a bit much and I understand the legal part but what does it matter, as far as being perfectly safe part got to do with when it was installed. Would not the panel be safer with the neutrals /grounds seperated and the white wire marked correctly?

Originally Posted by David O'Keefe

I don't quite get what your saying here. I agree, calling them a hazard is a bit much and I understand the legal part but what does it matter, as far as being perfectly safe part got to do with when it was installed.

Because if it was legal when it was installed it is legal now, and in previous code cycles those two items were code legal.
There is nothing "unsafe" about this installation. It's merely minor code violations, and yes, I do think there is a difference between a minor violation and a major one.

Originally Posted by David O'Keefe

Would not the panel be safer with the neutrals /grounds seperated and the white wire marked correctly?

IMO absolutely not.

MANY new homeowners (aka potential DIYers) take H-I reports as the absolute gospel. If you (not YOU, but someone) open a panel and see a white on a breaker and freak out because you think it's dangerous you have NO place being in a panel.

It was never a listed approval or "legal" for a CH panel of this type or manufacture to share a terminal connection in the common bus with BOTH grounding and grounded conductorsl It was likewise not "legal" (violation of the listing standard and the (labeling review part of the listing) to share a terminal with disimilar conductors. The fact that myriad electricians couldn't read the listed labeling, and igorant of the standard requirements, is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

It was never a listed approval or "legal" for a CH panel of this type or manufacture to share a terminal connection in the common bus with BOTH grounding and grounded conductorsl It was likewise not "legal" (violation of the listing standard and the (labeling review part of the listing) to share a terminal with disimilar conductors. The fact that myriad electricians couldn't read the listed labeling, and igorant of the standard requirements, is irrelevant.

You really are an arrogant f***, aren't you.

Did you EVER work in the real world, or have you always been a douche?
In all my years of visiting message boards I've never used an ignore function, but I am seriously considering it now.


Prior to the 2002 NEC this was NOT a direct code violation, but some panels did list it on their labels.
If I see a panel installed under a code prior to the 2002 NEC then you would have to prove to me that it is a violation. It is not my job to prove that it is compliant.(IE: If I can't quote something that isn't there.)

Its been required in the standards since the late 40s. The standards made this clearer in the early 60s, and fully incorporated by the three code cycles at the beginning of the 80s. Futher clarified by mid 80s code cycle and standards for safety. The panel is obviously post-late 48, post-early 60s, and appears most certainly post early 80s. In fact the OP has told us this is a 2002 (mfg date or installation date was not clear), LONG after said requirements were well established. Preservation, identification, and integrity of neutral/grounded conductors in/for Edison (3-wire, 120/240V, H-H-N) systems clear. Markings and qualifications (testing, labeling standards to meet, Standards) for AIC rms ratings clear. Series protection for 15- and 20-amp circuits clear. UL 67, and other standards for safety, prior editions and present - clear; and frankly, Chapters 1, 2 & 3 NEC clear on the subject, was also clear since long before the 90s-2002 re-codification/re-organizational efforts - just sprinkled amongst different sections ordered in a completely different format/organization. Using listed equipment in concert with and not in conflict with listing. Labeling and instructions have ALWAYS been a part of the listing Standards - the listing is predicated upon same - and most especially those limitations and specifications therein.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Its been required in the standards since the late 40s. The standards made this clearer in the early 60s, and fully incorporated by the three code cycles at the beginning of the 80s. Futher clarified by mid 80s code cycle and standards for safety. The panel is obviously post-late 48, post-early 60s, and appears most certainly post early 80s. In fact the OP has told us this is a 2002 (mfg date or installation date was not clear), LONG after said requirements were well established. Preservation, identification, and integrity of neutral/grounded conductors in/for Edison (3-wire, 120/240V, H-H-N) systems clear. Markings and qualifications (testing, labeling standards to meet, Standards) for AIC rms ratings clear. Series protection for 15- and 20-amp circuits clear. UL 67, and other standards for safety, prior editions and present - clear; and frankly, Chapters 1, 2 & 3 NEC clear on the subject, was also clear since long before the 90s-2002 re-codification/re-organizational efforts - just sprinkled amongst different sections ordered in a completely different format/organization. Using listed equipment in concert with and not in conflict with listing. Labeling and instructions have ALWAYS been a part of the listing Standards - the listing is predicated upon same - and most especially those limitations and specifications therein.

Good info. I just had this discussion at an inspection today although, in addition to double lugging the neutrals, there was also one double lug of unequal gauge neutrals.

It does not met listing
watch the video from Mike Holt

comment from electrican: "We have been doing it that way forever" Response: Yes sir, and it is still wrong

Originally Posted by bruce m graham III

comment from electrican: "We have been doing it that way forever" Response: Yes sir, and it is still wrong

because I say it's wrong.

You guys are hysterical.

Opppss
corrected video link

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Its been required in the standards since the late 40s. The standards made this clearer in the early 60s, and fully incorporated by the three code cycles at the beginning of the 80s. Futher clarified by mid 80s code cycle and standards for safety. The panel is obviously post-late 48, post-early 60s, and appears most certainly post early 80s. In fact the OP has told us this is a 2002 (mfg date or installation date was not clear), LONG after said requirements were well established. Preservation, identification, and integrity of neutral/grounded conductors in/for Edison (3-wire, 120/240V, H-H-N) systems clear. Markings and qualifications (testing, labeling standards to meet, Standards) for AIC rms ratings clear. Series protection for 15- and 20-amp circuits clear. UL 67, and other standards for safety, prior editions and present - clear; and frankly, Chapters 1, 2 & 3 NEC clear on the subject, was also clear since long before the 90s-2002 re-codification/re-organizational efforts - just sprinkled amongst different sections ordered in a completely different format/organization. Using listed equipment in concert with and not in conflict with listing. Labeling and instructions have ALWAYS been a part of the listing Standards - the listing is predicated upon same - and most especially those limitations and specifications therein.

Found your response informative. I would only add for clarity that the reason the neutrals and grounds are kept separate is the neutral bus is larger because it's current-carrying and the ground bus only carries current under fault conditions (which is why it's smaller and allows two and up to three conductors under each screw terminal).