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  1. #1
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    Default Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Here's a panel that has some two pole space saver breakers. (They are in the location as approved by panel manufacturer).

    The two pole linked breakers have separate 120V circuits on their terminals.

    OK, so this may not be a problem. (Past posts) but what exactly is the benefit of this? Why would someone do it this way?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    You get additional breakers without having a larger panel


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Gary,

    Thanks for the reply, but I need to clarify my question. I guess I wasn't clear.

    The space saver breakers are two pole - "linked breakers" with separate single pole circuits on them. They could have just as easiliy installed single pole space savers. I'm trying to figure out why anyone would use these linked type vs. separated single pole types.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    I think you are asking why are they linked? Maybe they came out of the box that way.

    In Canada, the breakers for split duplex kitchen receptacles are linked for code and safety reasons. But there is probably no logical answer to your question.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Multiwire circuit?


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    I don't see any red wires so I doubt MWBC's.

    There is absolutely NO benefit to using them, unless of course it is what he had on the truck and got rid of them.
    The only disadvantage is if they trip you lose two circuits and troubleshooting can be a pain if you need to isolate one circuit.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McIntyre View Post
    Multiwire circuit?
    Those breakers provide two overcurrent devices for two separate branch circuits off the same bus bar tab as a single pole breaker uses, thus those are not allowed to be used for MWBC as there is no voltage between the two breakers.

    If used for a MWBC, the neutral would not be 'shared' in the normal sense of a MWBC with 240 volts between the two breakers and the neutral only carrying the unbalance current.

    Those breakers, if used for a MWBC, would result in the neutral being overloaded as the current from each circuit would be additive on the neutral, meaning the neutral could have twice the current on it that it was designed to have or intended to have.

    Why the tied handles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
    There is absolutely NO benefit to using them, unless of course it is what he had on the truck and got rid of them.
    Save a trip to the supply house.

    My question is: Why would there even be tandem breakers with handle ties between the handles? So one could make their own quad breakers?

    Maybe someone can enlighten me as to a benefit for those tandem breakers to have handle ties - I can't think of any reason for that, am I just having a 'brain fart'?

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Those are GE THQP 2 pole circuit breakers. The way they are installed they are being used to supply individual 120 volt circuits(not MWBC's) as has been stated. Used as a normal 2 pole breaker they will supply 240 volts when correctly installed in a GE TLMxxx loadcenter.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Richter View Post
    Those are GE THQP 2 pole circuit breakers. The way they are installed they are being used to supply individual 120 volt circuits(not MWBC's) as has been stated. Used as a normal 2 pole breaker they will supply 240 volts when correctly installed in a GE TLMxxx loadcenter.
    +1


  10. #10
    Gerry Bennett's Avatar
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    I'm curious, is that panel installed upside down? GE has a 200amp 30-40 ckt panel that takes 30 full size breakers or 40 breakers if you use the slim ones on the bottom 5 slots.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    They are 120/240 2 pole breakers. They can be used (two indiv.l 120V branch circuits) or as a MWBC. They have an internal common trip, and are interupt rated at 10,000 rms sym Amp.

    They (the circuits) may land on on a common combination split yoke (both tabs removed) device, such as a fully split duplex receptacle (both tabs removed) or a combination switch (two switches one yoke, both tabls removed), for example the Dish Washer and Trash Compactor individual branch circuits. Likewise may have repurposed a breaker which has since been replaced more recently with two AFCI breakers.

    Not so sure you can have multiple SP 1/2" (L115, L120) adjacent to multiple 1" AFCIs don't recall much Q line since 99ish.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-02-2012 at 03:27 PM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Bennett View Post
    I'm curious, is that panel installed upside down? GE has a 200amp 30-40 ckt panel that takes 30 full size breakers or 40 breakers if you use the slim ones on the bottom 5 slots.
    Could be bottom fed if the main is oriented horizontally, in which case it is not upside down.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    They are 120/240 2 pole breakers. They can be used (two indiv.l 120V branch circuits) or as a MWBC. They have an internal common trip, and are interupt rated at 10,000 rms sym Amp.

    They (the circuits) may land on on a common combination split yoke (both tabs removed) device, such as a fully split duplex receptacle (both tabs removed) or a combination switch (two switches one yoke, both tabls removed), for example the Dish Washer and Trash Compactor individual branch circuits. Likewise may have repurposed a breaker which has since been replaced more recently with two AFCI breakers.

    Not so sure you can have multiple SP 1/2" (L115, L120) adjacent to multiple 1" AFCIs don't recall much Q line since 99ish.
    There are no tabs to be removed.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Ill bet you will find that the panel has been modifyed I have never seen a GE breaker with a handle tie like those in the picture that was not designed to be installed on both phases the panel has a plastic tab that would prevent the installation as shown. The breaker would have to be removed to verify this but you could research that style GE breaker and most likley you would not find any as installed they would be so rareley needed that it would not be worth manufacturing.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by paul hardy View Post
    Ill bet you will find that the panel has been modifyed I have never seen a GE breaker with a handle tie like those in the picture that was not designed to be installed on both phases the panel has a plastic tab that would prevent the installation as shown. The breaker would have to be removed to verify this but you could research that style GE breaker and most likley you would not find any as installed they would be so rareley needed that it would not be worth manufacturing.
    From what I can decipher from this one long sentence, those ARE legal and quite typical GE breakers. They are NOT "modified", nor is the panel.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Some people are confused here.

    I believe HG is referring to removal of tabs on receptacles, not on breakers.

    Those tandem-type breakers can have the tiebars installed across adjacent breakers for 240 volt or Multi wire circuits. In this case, the tiebars were not installed that way, and we may never know why.

    See the pic for example.

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  17. #17
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Bennett View Post
    I'm curious, is that panel installed upside down? GE has a 200amp 30-40 ckt panel that takes 30 full size breakers or 40 breakers if you use the slim ones on the bottom 5 slots.
    If the main says "NO" and "FFO", it is either upside down or the interior needs to be flipped in the can. Regardless, electricity has no regard for gravity or correct labeling. Already stated, if the circuits involved w/ the slim C/Bs are not MWBCs which now require handle ties, somebody was using what breakers they had available to git-r-done. If the are not MWBCs w/ a common neutral, the handle ties could be removed and all is good.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    speedy,
    Those are legal GE breakers with factory installed handle ties they are made to be installed on both phases in the panel. Ge puts a plactic tab in the panel to prevent the breaker from being installed on one phase thus they should not be centered on the opposing breaker. What I was stating is a double pole breaker installed on a single phase is almost useless and in the panel you would most likely find the tab removed to install the breaker.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Oh, I see Paul. I misunderstood. I totally get your point now, and agree.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by paul hardy View Post
    speedy,
    Those are legal GE breakers with factory installed handle ties they are made to be installed on both phases in the panel. Ge puts a plactic tab in the panel to prevent the breaker from being installed on one phase thus they should not be centered on the opposing breaker. What I was stating is a double pole breaker installed on a single phase is almost useless and in the panel you would most likely find the tab removed to install the breaker.
    Huh?

    120/240 is a single (split or center tapped) SINGLE phase. Edison style three-wires (two hots, one grounded, center tapped or "neutral") ONE (single) phase.

    two busses, one phase, each bus/leg is 180 degrees (center tapped) from the other.

    And yes John K, I thought it was clear I was referring to removing the tabs (both of them, not just the one between the hot terminals) from the yokes for combination or duplex devices LOAD SIDE of the panel, i.e. where the load side conductors for dedicated (individual) branch circuits are "landed" to a switch (disconnect) or an outlet.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Single phase circuits on linked breakers

    Watson I was just refering to each hot conductor as a phase I guess you could call in A & B hot conductor or 1 & 2 hot conductor I myself will refer to it as Phase A & B and C if it were 3 phase just makes it easyer to phrase for me. If you look at the panel interior below it is same type interior as the panel posted the breakers as installed are only installed on one tab thus they are like two single pole breakers tied together, for the breaker to be installed as a double pole and on seperate hot busses it would be installed between each tab attaching to the smaller tabs on the sides.



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