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  1. #1
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    Default Is floor outlet required?

    even on the niche, I think floor type receptacle is safer but I'm not sure. Should I recommend it?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Cannot be face up on a countertop. The one pictured is not prohibited. I see nothing wrong with it.

    Joe Funderburk, CBO, CMI
    Alpha & Omega Home Inspections, LLC
    Serving SC & NC

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    I doubt that someone could walk on the niche to require a floor receptacle. A floor receptacle is made to support the device if it were to be stepped on. I don't see the issue with the install as shown.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Funderburk View Post
    Cannot be face up on a countertop. The one pictured is not prohibited.
    Agreed, not prohibited, but as the NEC itself says, an installation in accordance with its requirements will provide an installation which is "essentially free of hazards" ... not "free of hazards".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    I'd note it in my report that its not wall mounted; i'd be concern if someone placed a glass of water/or other liquids than spilled it. Maybe a big "if" but I think its noteworthy. Also, I personally think its subject to physical damage
    For real???

    Do you also note wall receptacles in close proximity to sinks? What if someone uses a sprayer and sprays into the receptacle?
    Or receptacles under a sink? What if a pipe breaks?
    Or boxes in the same stud bay as piping? Again, what if a pipe breaks?

    ALL nearly identical scenarios with nearly identical HIGHLY improbable, but possible, outcomes.

    I think if you write up that receptacle in the image you'd be pretty hypocritical to not write up the others.
    IMO NONE of which deserve a second thought.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    For real???

    Do you also note wall receptacles in close proximity to sinks? What if someone uses a sprayer and sprays into the receptacle?
    Or receptacles under a sink? What if a pipe breaks?
    Or boxes in the same stud bay as piping? Again, what if a pipe breaks?

    ALL nearly identical scenarios with nearly identical HIGHLY improbable, but possible, outcomes.

    I think if you write up that receptacle in the image you'd be pretty hypocritical to not write up the others.
    IMO NONE of which deserve a second thought.
    Then you should really read about how the ones next to the toilet are a hazard.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Or any house in California west of the fault line ... east of the fault line should go up in value as the become "ocean front" and "ocean view" houses in the future - that 'could' happen.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    I think the point was the probability of those things happening is pretty low to make such a big deal about them. You certainly wouldn't report that the roof will not prevent a plane from crushing the house but it could happen.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  9. #9
    Robert Rolleston's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Any receptacle on the wall is possibly subject to getting water dumped on it or damaged by accident. I once spilt a drink on an end stand and it went down the wall and into a receptacle. I have also seen people move furniture around and bang a piece of furniture into an outlet and damage it. Should we also write those up as being a possible hazard too?


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    I guess writing that up as a hazard is no different than writing up equally potential hazards, provided the other equally potential hazards are also written up ... things like 'that door casing trim could easily be pulled of an split down the middle, making two swords kids could use to hurt each other with ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    If you don't like, well, agree to disagree...and MOVE ON!
    Wow. Touchy. I must have hit a nerve.

    So then you DO note all those other things I mentioned? As well as the sword thing Jerry mentioned?
    Good to know.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    I'm not a big fan of noting problems that don't exist. You can ask for an evaluation by an electrician who will say that there is no code violation and the HI is a dope. In the end no one really benefits from reporting stuff like this.
    Well said Robert

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  13. #13
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    Thumbs up Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Well said Robert
    I fully agree. Thank you Robert for this common sense answer.


  14. #14

    Thumbs up Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Why not suggest a GFCI..just to be on the safe side. Then it is up to the buyer to make the decision.

    John Binder
    Owner: Binder Home Inspections
    www.binderhomeinspections.com

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    It would not make it in my report.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    I would not note this in my report.

    Matt Kiefer, Columbus Advanced Inspections
    Home Inspection Columbus Ohio
    Radon Testing Columbus Ohio

  17. #17
    brianmiller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    that is a countertop, just not tiled.
    I betcha there are many items that make it inyour reports because it "could happen"...oh, yes...I betcha.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Water seems to to be the common concern with this application. So, if water were to be poured into the outlet what would happen?
    1) Drains on through and nothing happens
    2) Causes a short and breaker trips.
    3) Causes short and a fire.
    4) You are sitting adjacent to outlet and water is poured over you and it goes into outlet and you get a shock as it drains through but does not trip breaker.

    Any other thoughts on consequences?


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    that is a countertop, just not tiled.
    I betcha there are many items that make it inyour reports because it "could happen"...oh, yes...I betcha.
    That is NOT a countertop. I'm sure you could convince someone who wanted to believe it, such as a buyer, but it is not.

    If you HAD to give that surface a name that name would be shelf.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Water seems to to be the common concern with this application. So, if water were to be poured into the outlet what would happen?
    1) Drains on through and nothing happens
    2) Causes a short and breaker trips.
    3) Causes short and a fire.
    4) You are sitting adjacent to outlet and water is poured over you and it goes into outlet and you get a shock as it drains through but does not trip breaker.

    Any other thoughts on consequences?
    Answer: 1)

    Water will NOT cause a short circuit.
    It will NOT cause a fire.
    Water is NOT nearly conductive enough to shock you in this case. In cases where water is involved it is the conductivity of the wet surface that shocks you, not the water itself.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    Answer: 1)

    Water will NOT cause a short circuit.
    It will NOT cause a fire.
    Water is NOT nearly conductive enough to shock you in this case. In cases where water is involved it is the conductivity of the wet surface that shocks you, not the water itself.
    Point is that using water as the catalyst for the reactions that follow.

    The amount of water is not part of the question. A little or a lot, what ever it takes to cause a subsequent effect. Water causing the surface to become damp/wet or to to to be 12" deep.

    Water does not cause the fire but creates the condition that causes a fire, mechanism is irrelevant.

    I was looking for thoughts no mater how convoluted on what effects water would have on the outlet pictured. It can be as indirect as you can come up with. As water and electric seems to be a major concern to many.

    So.... Any other thoughts on consequences?


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Yup thats a major deal blower! Better note it, better refer it out to an licenced electrician, less someone sues.... NOT!


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Binder View Post
    Why not suggest a GFCI..just to be on the safe side. Then it is up to the buyer to make the decision.
    In that case, why not recommend a GFCI for every outlet?

    My Answer: because it's not supported by any model code and I don't make up my own rules when it comes to electrical standards.

    Joe Funderburk, CBO, CMI
    Alpha & Omega Home Inspections, LLC
    Serving SC & NC

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    There is a wall receptacle appearing just below and to the left of the un-extended ladder.

    It appears that the display/plant niche, working surface, ledge, seating box, etc. may be at an elevation quite probable to be accessible to be stood upon, i.e. well less than a 5-1/2 ft elevation from the lower elevation.

    It is unknown which room, stair landing, alcove, foyer, etc. this is in.

    It certainly has depth which would easily afford being stood upon.

    Is this embedded in masonry, adobe or skimmed hay bales, etc. or is this a framed/drywall/textured finished surface, or is it supported, i.e. subfloor/joist material?WAG here but thinking this may be at a landing, foyer or hall and may be at a seating height based on wall outlet just below.

    If not a deficiency, which can include other than "code" ( ), you can certainly make a recommendation depending on the circumstances and conditions of the location and use. The plastic plate and receptacle is not designed to be stood or sat upon. If you make a recommendation or note regarding relocating as a wall surface receptacle or a pop up receptacle or if a supported surface that may be walked upon a floor box depending on the circumstances and/or conditions.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 02-04-2013 at 09:35 AM.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Given the fact that the present administration is pontificating about other hazards such as gun ownership and football, maybe this should be addressed by the government.

    IMHO....nothing wrong, out of the ordinary or non-code compliant with the installation as depicted.

    You can "what if" this all day but the codes do not protect people from stupidity.

    If.....someone wants to walk on that shelf then they can do so to their hearts content.

    And....if water spills on the SHELF, lets hope they shut the circuit breaker off before they attempt to address any consequences impacted upon the device.

    Depending on the mineral content of water, let's say a salt water aquarium were placed on the shelf, it can and will cause damage to the receptacle up to and including a short circuit.

    Let's just hope that an FP&E panel isn't being utilized as overcurrent protection.

    Water in itself does not conduct electricity, however, it can facilitate conductivity given the proper circumstances.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    At least the "candles" aren't a fire hazard - no open flame. That's a positive!


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandie Hastings View Post
    At least the "candles" aren't a fire hazard - no open flame.
    ... but those "candles" "could be" an open flame ... if the sockets/cord connections shorted out and started arcing - just saying "could be" and that what some are basing their argument on, that something "could" happen.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    ... but those "candles" "could be" an open flame ... if the sockets/cord connections shorted out and started arcing - just saying "could be" and that what some are basing their argument on, that something "could" happen.
    Those candles do catch on fire, it takes a while, but I was able to get them to burn.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Is floor outlet required?

    If at first you don't succeed...use accelerant!


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