Results 1 to 28 of 28
  1. #1
    Scott Lynch's Avatar
    Scott Lynch Guest

    Default Equipment grounds to panel

    Last edited by Scott Lynch; 12-20-2007 at 03:44 PM.
    F.I.R.E. Services

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Posts
    2,286

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Scott,

    Oooh, good question. I had never thought of it. Let's see, the screw is designed for grounding, the grounding terminal block would normally be screwed to the panel, so I can't see why this would be a problem. Not sure if just twisting the wires together is OK and is the screw at the left designed/intended for grounding?

    The other thought is that you would probably not be allowed to put more than one wire under any screw, so installation of a terminal block would be a good idea, given that installation of additional circuits is a possibility.

    Department of Redundancy Department
    http://www.FullCircleInspect.com/

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    164

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Lynch View Post
    Is it allowable to connect equipement grounds directly to panel, not at a bus bar?

    Also, is it okay to route conduit this manner out of a wall?
    Hello Scott,

    You can attach ground conductors directly to the panel but not in the fashion you show in your picture. A mechanical lug would need to be used and into a threaded screw hole.

    Bringing flex through the wall as shown is generally not problem.

    Sincerely,

    Corey


  4. #4

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Corey:
    Can you post a picture of the approved mechanical lug? I always get lost looking for connection information in the NEC... Can you throw me a bone? Where in the NEC would you find the condemning citation? Or is it in the small print on the panel label?

    Michael Leavitt - Orem, Utah
    www.TheHomeInspector.com
    www.DeckFailure.com

  5. #5
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Leavitt View Post
    Corey:
    Can you post a picture of the approved mechanical lug? I always get lost looking for connection information in the NEC... Can you throw me a bone? Where in the NEC would you find the condemning citation? Or is it in the small print on the panel label?
    Attached - I think.

    Aaron

    Last edited by Aaron Miller; 05-17-2008 at 12:14 PM.

  6. #6
    Tom Munds's Avatar
    Tom Munds Guest

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Guys help me out here. Doesn't the panel box have to be grounded with an 8awg wire( commonly bare)?


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Memphis TN.
    Posts
    4,311

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Corey Friedman View Post
    Hello Scott,

    You can attach ground conductors directly to the panel but not in the fashion you show in your picture. A mechanical lug would
    Corey
    Tom,

    The picture is to the outside of service panel thus lug required.

    Inside the service panel ground to the Ground bus bar bare wire.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Tom: The panel box has to be bonded to neutral and/or ground depending on whether it is the service equipment or downstream. Bonding is achieved in a number of different ways, but not often with a wire, in my experience.
    If it's the system grounding conductor you're thinking of, its size is determined by the service size.

    Last edited by John Arnold; 10-02-2007 at 02:12 PM. Reason: clarify who I'm replying to.
    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  9. #9
    Tom Munds's Avatar
    Tom Munds Guest

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Tom: The panel box has to be bonded to neutral and/or ground depending on whether it is the service equipment or downstream. Bonding is achieved in a number of different ways, but not often with a wire, in my experience.
    If it's the system grounding conductor you're thinking of, its size is determined by the service size.


    I THOUGHT BONDING WAS ONLY FOR THE SUBPANEL. I THOUGHT GROUNDING WAS all that was needed for the main. The subpanel has to be bonded, separated and grounded.


  10. #10
    Tom Munds's Avatar
    Tom Munds Guest

    Red face Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Tom,

    The picture is to the outside of service panel thus lug required.

    Inside the service panel ground to the Ground bus bar bare wire.
    I knew that! I just misunderstood what you were talking about.
    Thank you


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Tom - Have you seen green screw that connects the neutral/ground bar in the service equipment (main) panel to the back of the box? That's a bonding screw. It provides a low resistance path back to the source (transformer) by way of the service neutral so that the box cannot become energized and shock you.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  12. #12
    Tom Munds's Avatar
    Tom Munds Guest

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Tom - Have you seen green screw that connects the neutral/ground bar in the service equipment (main) panel to the back of the box? That's a bonding screw. It provides a low resistance path back to the source (transformer) by way of the service neutral so that the box cannot become energized and shock you.
    Yep I've seen it. Thank you for your input.You have probably saved my butt!But did anything I say make sense?


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Munds View Post
    did anything I say make sense?
    For a 100 amp service, there should be a minimum 8 awg copper grounding electrode conductor.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Reno, Nv. - Now St. Louis, Mo.
    Posts
    369

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    There are several issues brought up by the pictures .... but what you have in both has been argued to be perfectly fine.

    The flex exiting the wall may be ugly, but there is no electrical code violation. If that is a fire wall, then the hole needs to be sealed.

    As for grounding to the panel case ....

    Let's consider if there were not enough spaces in the ground bar, and a second bar were added. There is an opinion shared by many of the 'anointed' that there is no code requirement to connect the two bars with any wire ... that the case mounting screw is plenty.

    Attaching the new bar ... or a lug ... or even the wire directly (as shown) raises the question of "how?" Using one of those fancy green screws, and running it into a factory prepared hole, is clearly OK. Use of other screws ... even the self-tapping kind shown in the picture .... has been the subject of considerable debate in the electrical forums. The 2008 code is supposed to have some changes made to clarify the issue.

    Personally, I would look for two things to be accomplished: a secure mounting, and significant metal-to-metal contact. If in doubt, I'd test for security with a wiggle of the wire, and an ohm meter across the connection.


  15. #15
    frank mangiarelli's Avatar
    frank mangiarelli Guest

    Wink Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Gentlemen: the question is mute! we are Home Inspectors, not Sparky's. if it is questionable call it-PERIOD! Refer to the Experts! What you are saying in this post is great to know, and I don't dispute what you are saying, But do you want to put Your Reputation/Assets/Your future and your families future on the Line for an Ego trip? Let the Experts make the Call- It is Better to Error on the side of Good and be wrong than to allow ourselves to let our Ego take over and Loose Your -Assets, if You Know what -I mean


  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Frank - Welcome to the board! Please fill out your profile so we know where you are from.
    I think you mean "moot".

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  17. #17
    Brian Hoagland's Avatar
    Brian Hoagland Guest

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by frank mangiarelli View Post
    Gentlemen: the question is mute! we are Home Inspectors, not Sparky's. if it is questionable call it-PERIOD! Refer to the Experts! What you are saying in this post is great to know, and I don't dispute what you are saying, But do you want to put Your Reputation/Assets/Your future and your families future on the Line for an Ego trip? Let the Experts make the Call- It is Better to Error on the side of Good and be wrong than to allow ourselves to let our Ego take over and Loose Your -Assets, if You Know what -I mean
    I am not certain about this issue as seen in the photos as the photos did not include all the panel and I am hesitant to comment unless I can see everything. The problem with calling for experts (especially with grounding issues which are typically easy to identify as right or wrong) is it may cost you when a red flag is thrown up and "sparky" ends up out there telling the homeowner that the HI didn't know what he was talking about. It may cost you for future buisiness, you might get sparky's bill, you are gonna get it from the listing agent (doesn't count) and the selling agent (might count a little). This forum is designed as an exchange for knowledge which is what has happened on this issue. It isn't an ego trip to learn more. We should be able to apply common sense and knowledge learned to our business practices to become a better inspector everyday. If this isn't one of our goals, well then we are just being lazy.


  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Memphis TN.
    Posts
    4,311

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by John Stephenson View Post
    Man, who cares if he didn't spell "moot" correctly, only someone who needs pyscho-therapy, I think. His point is right and you want to focus on a word that isn't spelled correctly. Why? To feed your over-inflated ego.

    YEOW !

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,314

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by John Stephenson View Post
    Man, who cares if he didn't spell "moot" correctly, only someone who needs pyscho-therapy, I think. His point is right and you want to focus on a word that isn't spelled correctly. Why? To feed your over-inflated ego.
    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

    You must have an over inflated ego.

    First, John WELCOMED him to the board, then he notified him of an incorrect word.

    WORDS are all we have in communicating with each other and our clients, and WORDS are what we live and die by, so the WORDS should be the correct words, spelled correctly too.

    Some say that is not needed here on this board, however, the posting on this board is taken as representative of one's writing in reports, and some of those reports (based on some of the posts) could really get some inspectors in deep do-do.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Osceola, AR
    Posts
    277

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

    You must have an over inflated ego.

    First, John WELCOMED him to the board, then he notified him of an incorrect word.

    WORDS are all we have in communicating with each other and our clients, and WORDS are what we live and die by, so the WORDS should be the correct words, spelled correctly too.

    Some say that is not needed here on this board, however, the posting on this board is taken as representative of one's writing in reports, and some of those reports (based on some of the posts) could really get some inspectors in deep do-do.
    I have to go along with this, the incorrect spelling of even one word in our report can change the entire meaning of our findings. Even a mediocre lawyer can take a report with just a couple of spelling errors and turn it into something that could haunt you for the rest of your life, or the rest of your career at least. Spell check everything! Even what you post here, get into the habit of it.


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Hey, I wasn't trying to make a big deal out of "moot". It's a common mistake. My mother was an English teacher. My father taught American literature after retiring from the Air Force. I can't help it, so sue me.
    It was his first post, also, so I thought I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, instead of hammering him about the inflated ego stuff.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  22. #22
    Shannon Guinn's Avatar
    Shannon Guinn Guest

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    [quote=frank mangiarelli;26402]Gentlemen: the question is mute! we are Home Inspectors, not Sparky's. if it is questionable call it-PERIOD! Refer to the Experts!

    Actually frank, some of us are sparky's, and by the way I personally can't stand it when I am referred to as such. I am now an EI but will always remember my roots. I think it would actually be a good thing if some HI's were tradesmen (maybe there are) it would definitely be a good thing as far as making a recommendation for replace/repair situations. But your advice is sound by referring to the experts.


  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,314

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Shannon Guinn View Post
    Actually frank, some of us are sparky's, and by the way I personally can't stand it when I am referred to as such.
    Actually, being an old sparky, and one who has always like sparking things, making things spark, and watching sparks, I have never minded it.

    I am now an EI
    "EI"? Electrical Inspector?

    Me too, among other things. (Mostly good "other things".)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #24
    Shannon Guinn's Avatar
    Shannon Guinn Guest

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    It's always a pleasure when his lordship replies to one of my posts.


  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring Hill (Nashville), TN
    Posts
    5,829

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Johnny boy has a problem and a history with folks pointing out spellen in post.
    http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...html#post10942

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by John Stephenson View Post
    Man, who cares if he didn't spell "moot" correctly, only someone who needs pyscho-therapy, I think. His point is right and you want to focus on a word that isn't spelled correctly. Why? To feed your over-inflated ego.
    That's "psychotherapy". No hyphen needed.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,741

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    John A.
    Some people on this board (not refering to you) do need
    "pyscho"-therapy.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Memphis TN.
    Posts
    4,311

    Default Re: Equipment grounds to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    John A.
    Some people on this board (not refering to you) do need
    "pyscho"-therapy.
    EASY NOW.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •