Thread: Breaker panel inspection.

Inspecting a breaker panel and sub-panel for a home inspection. Dual-buss or split-buss panel. House built in 1977 in Florence, KY. Sub-panel was added in 2011. Sub-panel has a double tapped breaker. Main panel has some aluminum wiring and previous water intrusion from the mast.


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Hmmm, not sure what your purpose is with this. Some questionable commentary about code dates, aluminum wiring, etc. But you missed the double lugged neutrals on the neutral bar.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

Hmmm, not sure what your purpose is with this. Some questionable commentary about code dates, aluminum wiring, etc. But you missed the double lugged neutrals on the neutral bar.

This is my purpose. Thanks!

I don't see any solid Al branch circuits. The larger gauge stranded Al is not a problem.

Not sure if you've got questions or what your video is intended to show, but I see GE, Square D, Eaton, and Siemens breakers in what looks to be a GE main panel along with multiple neutrals on some terminals.

Sub panel has at least two brands of breakers.

Lots of issues here.

Several white colored conductors in the panel used for load carrying are not allowed either.

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

Not sure if you've got questions or what your video is intended to show, but I see GE, Square D, Eaton, and Siemens breakers in what looks to be a GE main panel along with multiple neutrals on some terminals.

Sub panel has at least two brands of breakers.

Lots of issues here.

I don't really have questions. I posted the video because I'm a home inspector and I learn from the comments to make myself a better home inspector.

Thanks!

Aluminum wiring is still safely used and installed today. You will not find it installed, not made, since the 70s in the smaller 15 and 20 amp branch circuits.

Some of the reasons given are pretty lame IMO. The voice also did not sound very sure of the information being given. Some of it seemed hesitantly given.

Typically the mast would end at the meter socket, not the panel.

I did not hear any concern for the mish mosh of breakers.

Originally Posted by Matt Neary

This is my purpose. Thanks!

I think still photos and text of what you are seeing would be more beneficial - harder to catch things going by in video and sound. Not worth the extra effort to keep playing it back and forth to try to see things or hear things - at least that's my opinion ... maybe I'm just dense and slow, but the video gets in the way of the sound and the sound gets in the way of the visual.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Aluminum wiring is still safely used and installed today. You will not find it installed, not made, since the 70s in the smaller 15 and 20 amp branch circuits.

Some of the reasons given are pretty lame IMO. The voice also did not sound very sure of the information being given. Some of it seemed hesitantly given.

Typically the mast would end at the meter socket, not the panel.

I did not hear any concern for the mish mosh of breakers.

Thanks.
I'm a home inspector, not an electrician. It would obviously be an insult to electricians to even call myself an amateur electrician. That being said, the Standards of Practice don't require me to even remove the panel cover. So, this part of my inspection is above and beyond the Standards. I appreciate helpful comments, but please keep the insults to yourself. I may not be as up to speed on the codes as someone like yourself, but I don't need to be. I learn something every day...always have, always will.
Thanks again!

Originally Posted by Matt Neary

Thanks.
I'm a home inspector, not an electrician. It would obviously be an insult to electricians to even call myself an amateur electrician. That being said, the Standards of Practice don't require me to even remove the panel cover. So, this part of my inspection is above and beyond the Standards. I appreciate helpful comments, but please keep the insults to yourself. I may not be as up to speed on the codes as someone like yourself, but I don't need to be. I learn something every day...always have, always will.
Thanks again!

Sounded like Jim Port was giving some constructive criticism not intending to insult. He did make the comment "IMO" (his opinion). If your going to put yourself out there on an interent forum you need to have thick skin.

Matt
We are a though crowd.
Ask, Listen, and Learn.
It may hurt a little, but you will learn more here in a few months than you will on your own in a few years.
Also it's much better to get criticism from the people here than from unhappy customers or their lawyers.
Remember, it's only dumb when you don't ask.

Matt, that was not meant as an insult. It was my observation that you did not seem sure of what you were trying to convey to the buyers. In that light, as a buyer, I would question the depth of the inspectors background. Perhaps praticing the narration would help smooth the presentation out.

As a non HI, I would question why you would add this to your report if it is above your SOP or knowledge level.

I applaud you for trying to increase your knowledge and will gladly share with you.

Ok, thanks! And, actually, this video wasn't made for or presented to the client. I made the video partly for this purpose and partly for my own review. Then, it was suggested to me that I post them on YouTube. In light of the criticism, I think it would be best if I remove them from YouTube and work on my videographer/narrator skills and just use them for their original purpose.

Thanks to all once again!

matt

don't remove the electrical panel not in SOP . what sops are that. you might as well just do a drive by of house and say looks good for year it was built. sorry but you missed a lot in that video. what kind of inspection training have you had and how many inspections have you conducted. doing a video and sharing it is good learning i guess but wow

cvf

Matt,
I go by the ASHI SOP as well as the Tennessee SOP (just about the same).
ASHI SOP 7.1.A.5 The inspector shall: INSPECT the interior components of service panels and sub panels.

You need a little more work/experience/education before you start posting videos on the web.

Guys (and Gals)
Give Matt a break.
It seems that Matt posted the video for review by fellow inspectors, not the HO.
Don't be so hard that he's reluctant to ask guestions and seek advice.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

Matt,
I go by the ASHI SOP as well as the Tennessee SOP (just about the same).
ASHI SOP 7.1.A.5 The inspector shall: INSPECT the interior components of service panels and sub panels.

You need a little more work/experience/education before you start posting videos on the web.

International Standards of Practice for Performing a General Home Inspection - InterNACHI
3.7. Electrical III. The inspector is not required to: C. remove panelboard cabinet covers or dead fronts.

Originally Posted by Matt Neary

International Standards of Practice for Performing a General Home Inspection - InterNACHI
3.7. Electrical III. The inspector is not required to: C. remove panelboard cabinet covers or dead fronts.

Matt
Not coming down on you.
What they are saying is that inspecting the panel is something most inspectors perform, SOP or not. If you perform only to the minimum standards, you will miss a lot of defects in the home. It won't matter to the buyer what the SOP says, all they say is, "You should have seen this".
Makes no difference what the SOP says, the SOP is not the one the buyer will be mad at.
But your did pull the cover, good for you, and you posted on this forum wanting reviews, again, good for you. Keep it up, and you'll do fine.

Thanks, Rick!
Yes, I always pull the cover! And, I always take photos and report what I see.

From InterNACHI at nachi.org: The inspection is not technically exhaustive. That means that the inspection is not a comprehensive and detailed examination beyond the scope of a property inspection that would involve or include, but would not be limited to: dismantling, specialized knowledge or training, special equipment, measurements, calculations, testing, research, analysis or other means.

~It's also not a "Code Inspection".~

That being said, I am very knowledgeable in many areas of construction. Especially roofing, concrete, and grading/drainage. If I see something in a home that I think needs attention from someone more highly trained in a certain area, I put that in my report. I know enough about my lesser skills to see when a major problem exists. The panel in the video passed my inspection, but I recommended they have a licensed electrician evaluate it further because of the minor problems that were found. They, most likely, didn't have it evaluated further because none of the problems I found, as well as the problems found by the people in this forum, are major problems.

I will continue to post a video now and then when I find things I'd like to learn more about. Probably having to do with electrical panels or HVAC, as those are my weakest points.
Thanks again, everyone.

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

Not sure if you've got questions or what your video is intended to show, but I see GE, Square D, Eaton, and Siemens breakers in what looks to be a GE main panel along with multiple neutrals on some terminals.

Sub panel has at least two brands of breakers.

Lots of issues here.

Bill's writing just reminds me. I did say different brands of breakers installed on the same panel. Is it an issue?

the video removed? cannot watch it.

Matt,
The reason I listed the ASHI SOP was 1. Because I had it handy, and 2. Most States that are licensed use a form of the ASHI SOP.

I'm not aware of any State that uses the interNACHI SOP and do not require inspectors to remove the panel cover. I would be surprised if there were, but I have been surprised before.

Obviously, you do pull the cover, at least you did for the video.

Originally Posted by Matt Neary

Thanks, Rick!
The panel in the video passed my inspection, but I recommended they have a licensed electrician evaluate it further because of the minor problems that were found. They, most likely, didn't have it evaluated further because none of the problems I found, as well as the problems found by the people in this forum, are major problems.

Your comment goes to a point that is definitely subjective. What constitutes "minor"? I sometimes tell clients that a defect is more of a misdemeanor than a felony, but it is still wrong and potentially trouble. What we see in that panel is several wrong things that are also code violations. You said you don't do a code inspection and neither do I, but many wrong things are also code violations and should be pointed out as such.

The defects found in your video are "misdemeanors" in my opinion, but misdemeanors are still wrong and should be corrected and imho, should be communicated to the clients like that. That panel doesn't "pass" my evaluation and I submit, should not pass yours either.

The breakers need to be listed for use in the panel. Most can only be used in the same brand as the panel. Some will fit in other brands but that does not mean they can be used. Cutler-Hammer BR are listed for use in Challenger and Bryant panels.

Originally Posted by Matt Neary

Thanks.
I'm a home inspector, not an electrician. It would obviously be an insult to electricians to even call myself an amateur electrician. That being said, the Standards of Practice don't require me to even remove the panel cover. So, this part of my inspection is above and beyond the Standards. I appreciate helpful comments, but please keep the insults to yourself. I may not be as up to speed on the codes as someone like yourself, but I don't need to be. I learn something every day...always have, always will.
Thanks again!

Not removing the electrical panel cover is not doing a proper inspection plain and simple regardless of Standards of Practice same goes other areas such as inspecting the roof

Originally Posted by Matt Neary

International Standards of Practice for Performing a General Home Inspection - InterNACHI
3.7. Electrical III. The inspector is not required to: C. remove panelboard cabinet covers or dead fronts.

But you are in Kentucky and the states SOP trumps Nicks SOP, which are the weakest in the profession as you can see by your example...... You need to inspect and write your reports to the states SOP and not your associations.

Do you know what KY requires when it comes to looking at the electrical service?

Originally Posted by Matt Neary

International Standards of Practice for Performing a General Home Inspection - InterNACHI
3.7. Electrical III. The inspector is not required to: C. remove panelboard cabinet covers or dead fronts.

Gotta say that that surprises me. The InterNachi HIs that I know, open the panels. I never guessed that they were going beyond their SoP. Seriously, looking inside the service panel board is home inspecting 101. I'm amazed that some InterNachi HI hasn't found himself 'splainin' to a judge that he was just following his SoP.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

Gotta say that that surprises me. The InterNachi HIs that I know, open the panels. I never guessed that they were going beyond their SoP. Seriously, looking inside the service panel board is home inspecting 101. I'm amazed that some InterNachi HI hasn't found himself 'splainin' to a judge that he was just following his SoP.

If a fire starts in a panel and burns the place down, where's the evidence that would point to a lazy HI?
I have done inspections aplenty where the only serious defect was inside the big old panel. It is reason #1 for a condo inspection.

Originally Posted by Matt Neary

Thanks.
I'm a home inspector, not an electrician. It would obviously be an insult to electricians to even call myself an amateur electrician. That being said, the Standards of Practice don't require me to even remove the panel cover. So, this part of my inspection is above and beyond the Standards. I appreciate helpful comments, but please keep the insults to yourself. I may not be as up to speed on the codes as someone like yourself, but I don't need to be. I learn something every day...always have, always will.
Thanks again!

Its good that you are posting and learning. But, you should learn many of the basics from forums, seminars, or reading before doing home inspections. The fact that those standards do not require you to remove the panel cover indicates that those standards are not very good. You cannot inspect a panel without opening the cover. Thinking that you do not need to understand panel wiring because you are going above the standards will get you in trouble.

On a related subject, let me rant a little. I see this far too often: "there is a double tap in the panel-recommend further evaluation by an electrician". With the most recent example of this there was a 20 slot panel not rated for twin breakers with about 28 breakers in the panel. Other issues in the panel and improper bonding in a feeder panel. Nothing else but 1 double tap mentioned. It was clear to me that the only proper fix was to replace this old antiquated panel. Calling for further evaluation due to one double tap may keep you out of trouble, but you would not be doing a good job for your client.

Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller

On a related subject, let me rant a little. I see this far too often: "there is a double tap in the panel-recommend further evaluation by an electrician". With the most recent example of this there was a 20 slot panel not rated for twin breakers with about 28 breakers in the panel. Other issues in the panel and improper bonding in a feeder panel. Nothing else but 1 double tap mentioned. It was clear to me that the only proper fix was to replace this old antiquated panel. Calling for further evaluation due to one double tap may keep you out of trouble, but you would not be doing a good job for your client.

This is an often debated topic in this forum. Whether to spell out a fix or recommend further evaluation by an appropriate expert. I tend to fall on the latter side of the argument. I think as a HI we need to point out the problem that we think needs repair, but unless you carry a license for evaluating and repairing that component, such as licensed electrician, then I think you are better advised to recommend further evaluation and repair by a licensed pro or expert.

I see exceptions to my advice all the time, but in general, I think this advice is still the best. Every exception to this advice is subjective and I don't see one way as being "right" and the other "wrong".

Hey Matt, tip of the day. Find a salvage yard where they stack demolition lumber and such, what we call 'deconstruction materials' now.
Ask to see their electrical panels. You will be pointed to a shed full of E panels. Pull out your handy pocket drivers and practice a bunch on every brand.

No you wouldn't just turn the power off during an inspection, Kevin. Where'd you learn that?

I have never turned off the power to a panel in more than 25 years of doing inspections,in order to remove the cover,but before I do,I size up the panel and surroundings,then I decide.
Not removing the cover panel,leaves the inspector with very little to comment about the system.
If you do not feel comfortable,do not remove it,and say so in your report.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

This is an often debated topic in this forum. Whether to spell out a fix or recommend further evaluation by an appropriate expert. I tend to fall on the latter side of the argument. I think as a HI we need to point out the problem that we think needs repair, but unless you carry a license for evaluating and repairing that component, such as licensed electrician, then I think you are better advised to recommend further evaluation and repair by a licensed pro or expert.

Lon,

I think you are missing the entire point of all those discussions you referred to - the home inspector does not "spell out a fix", the home inspector should 'recommend that it be fixed/corrected/etc.'.

There is no need for "further evaluation by an appropriate expert" - you, the home inspector, are putting yourself out there as the appropriate expert and you as the home inspector already made the "evaluation". Just suck it up and call for corrections/repairs/etc. - far too many home inspectors think that calling for further evaluation is CYA, it is not, neither is it helpful to your client.

Well I can tell ya that in my home inspection career I have turned off more than my share of panels. Particularly old CEB fuse panels where the removal of the interior face plate can only be removed by prying a tab.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Well I can tell ya that in my home inspection career I have turned off more than my share of panels. Particularly old CEB fuse panels where the removal of the interior face plate can only be removed by prying a tab.

I flip the main by accident once in a while, therby cutting power to enumerable clocks and timers.

On two memorable ocassions, I tripped the main pulling a tight cover off of an FP panel. The one time, it crashed the seller's computer while he was trying to download work to take out, oops. The other time, it triggered an alarm system that only the absentee owners could reset.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Lon,

I think you are missing the entire point of all those discussions you referred to - the home inspector does not "spell out a fix", the home inspector should 'recommend that it be fixed/corrected/etc.'.

There is no need for "further evaluation by an appropriate expert" - you, the home inspector, are putting yourself out there as the appropriate expert and you as the home inspector already made the "evaluation". Just suck it up and call for corrections/repairs/etc. - far too many home inspectors think that calling for further evaluation is CYA, it is not, neither is it helpful to your client.

I'm not missing any point and in fact, I am making the point that you don't see. We disagree this time just as we disagreed last time we discussed this. Few HIs are actual experts in every single aspect of a home. That's why most of us should recommend further evaluation by appropriate experts. As I stated, they're are exceptions to this and I regularly call for fixes rather than evaluations.

HIs have to be able to identify something that's "wrong", but I disagree that our role is to declare "fix it" every single time rather than call for another set of eyes to evaluate it. If all of us were the last word on any subject, then our associations and states wouldn't need to require us to have continuing education.

I agree that too many inspectors use calling for further evaluation as CYA. I am definitely not one of those. I recently saw a number of problems with a boiler installation. The "tech" that came out to fix it said that there was nothing wrong with it. Of course, I got a call from the client wondering what to believe. So, on my own dime, I'm meeting this imbecile at the house to give him a not very friendly education. (On a side note, I'll bet the farm that he is licensed) But, there are times when calling for further evaluations is not only appropriate but the correct thing to do.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

I'm not missing any point and in fact, I am making the point that you don't see. We disagree this time just as we disagreed last time we discussed this. Few HIs are actual experts in every single aspect of a home. That's why most of us should recommend further evaluation by appropriate experts. As I stated, they're are exceptions to this and I regularly call for fixes rather than evaluations.

I did not miss the point, I am pointing out that IF ONE CANNOT CALL OUT SOMETHING LIKE A MULTIPLE TAP FOR REPAIR, and instead feels compelled to call for "further evaluation" of it ... THAT PERSON S-H-O-U-L-D N-O-T B-E pretending to be a home inspector, they should be training with a real home inspector - it really is that plain and simple.

It is home inspectors like that who give all home inspectors a bad name and give reason for code inspectors to mock home inspectors and make jokes about them - doing as you are saying to do only gives the code inspectors more ammo and reason to feel that home inspectors are a joke - you are doing nothing to dis-spell those ideas.

Lon wrote in part:

But, there are times when calling for further evaluations is not only appropriate but the correct thing to do.

You are correct. There are times where the systems are too complex to inspect using visual methods or testing which requires specialized equipment or for me to know if its operating within specs.

Perfect example was with an inspection I did on Monday. Geothermal heat pump was 25 years old. No service records, current owner only has been in house 4 years. I recommended that the heat pump be serviced prior to close of title. Simply put I am not there to test the components and temps, et ceteras.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I did not miss the point, I am pointing out that IF ONE CANNOT CALL OUT SOMETHING LIKE A MULTIPLE TAP FOR REPAIR, and instead feels compelled to call for "further evaluation" of it ... THAT PERSON S-H-O-U-L-D N-O-T B-E pretending to be a home inspector, they should be training with a real home inspector - it really is that plain and simple.

It is home inspectors like that who give all home inspectors a bad name and give reason for code inspectors to mock home inspectors and make jokes about them - doing as you are saying to do only gives the code inspectors more ammo and reason to feel that home inspectors are a joke - you are doing nothing to dis-spell those ideas.

Amen Jerry!

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I did not miss the point, I am pointing out that IF ONE CANNOT CALL OUT SOMETHING LIKE A MULTIPLE TAP FOR REPAIR, and instead feels compelled to call for "further evaluation" of it ... THAT PERSON S-H-O-U-L-D N-O-T B-E pretending to be a home inspector, they should be training with a real home inspector - it really is that plain and simple.

It is home inspectors like that who give all home inspectors a bad name and give reason for code inspectors to mock home inspectors and make jokes about them - doing as you are saying to do only gives the code inspectors more ammo and reason to feel that home inspectors are a joke - you are doing nothing to dis-spell those ideas.

To use Raymond's example, are you going to tell us that you are so familiar with geothermal pumps that you are qualified to recognize and make recommendations for repairs on geothermal pumps?

Jerry, you committing one of the crimes that you hate about HIs. You saw my post, but failed to read it. You should have asked for further evaluation of my post. I didn't say what you claim. I don't even need to restate it because I was very clear the first time.

Heck, in thirty years, I've never seen a geothermal pump.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

To use Raymond's example, are you going to tell us that you are so familiar with geothermal pumps that you are qualified to recognize and make recommendations for repairs on geothermal pumps?

Jerry, you committing one of the crimes that you hate about HIs. You saw my post, but failed to read it. You should have asked for further evaluation of my post. I didn't say what you claim. I don't even need to restate it because I was very clear the first time.

Heck, in thirty years, I've never seen a geothermal pump.

Lon,

Are you even reading the posts you are responding to?

The thread is about MULTIPLE TAPPED conductors ...

YOU said to recommend FURTHER EVALUATION for that instead of stating it needed correction ...

I SAID to just suck it up and SAY IT NEEDS CORRECTION ...

... and now we are off on a discussion about recommending how to replace the fuel in a nuclear submarine without being an expert for that ... you lost me in how you got from something so simple as stating to correct multiple taps to stating how to refuel a Saturn V Rocket for the Space Shuttle (yes, a couple of exaggerations like you went off course to reach , next we will be expecting the home inspector to solve all of the world's problems ... ????

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Lon,

Are you even reading the posts you are responding to?

The thread is about MULTIPLE TAPPED conductors ...

YOU said to recommend FURTHER EVALUATION for that instead of stating it needed correction ...

I SAID to just suck it up and SAY IT NEEDS CORRECTION ...

... and now we are off on a discussion about recommending how to replace the fuel in a nuclear submarine without being an expert for that ... you lost me in how you got from something so simple as stating to correct multiple taps to stating how to refuel a Saturn V Rocket for the Space Shuttle (yes, a couple of exaggerations like you went off course to reach , next we will be expecting the home inspector to solve all of the world's problems ... ????

Yes, you are lost. And you avoided the direct question, which obviously undermined your argument.

Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller

On a related subject, let me rant a little. I see this far too often: "there is a double tap in the panel-recommend further evaluation by an electrician".

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

This is an often debated topic in this forum. Whether to spell out a fix or recommend further evaluation by an appropriate expert. I tend to fall on the latter side of the argument.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

Yes, you are lost. And you avoided the direct question, which obviously undermined your argument.

I'm not the one who is lost ... remember the post you quoted ... and your reply to it?

Yeah, the ones I quoted above - I haven't avoided anything, I just keep pointing out the above.

Jerry, most of the time you are the smartest guy in this room, but sometimes you put on your blinders and stumble about fuming in self-righteous outrage. Fortunately for both of us, I bore easily of inane pointless arguing, so since you'll no doubt respond to this........you will have the last word. And since I am up late doing a report, I'll bid you good night and move on to the next topic......tomorrow.

agreed... me too amen.

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

Amen Jerry!