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  1. #1
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    Default Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    I saw this at a house this morning and am inclined to say it is wrong but I'm not positive as I'm not sure I understand the wiring schematic for the panel. The first pic is of a double tap off the main lugs to feed an adjacent 200 amp panel instead of a dedicated breaker in the main panel feeding the 200 amp sub. The 2nd pic is of the main panel wiring schematic.

    The lugs the aluminum cable are secured beneath look more like main breaker hold down screws to me than anything else.

    Am I correct in this setup being incorrect?





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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    The tap is code compliant. What size main breaker is in the right panel?

    USE-2 insulated wire is not to be used for interior wiring though.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    The tap is code compliant. What size main breaker is in the right panel?

    USE-2 insulated wire is not to be used for interior wiring though.
    Main breaker size in the other panel is 200 amp.

    Forgive me for being obtuse but what is USE-2 wire?

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Is that 4/0 copper and 2/0 aluminum?

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Main breaker size in the other panel is 200 amp.

    Forgive me for being obtuse but what is USE-2 wire?
    USE-2 is an insulation type. It has not been tested to pass a smoke emission test for interior conductors. The tap to the second panel is 4/0 aluminum, type USE-2 and it should not have been used in this application. Also the yellow strip is not adequate for indentifying the grounded conductor (neutral)--white tape should have been used.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Is that 4/0 copper and 2/0 aluminum?
    It looks like a 250 kcmil copper service entrance conductor with a 4/0 aluminum tap to me.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    USE-2 is an insulation type. It has not been tested to pass a smoke emission test for interior conductors. The tap to the second panel is 4/0 aluminum, type USE-2 and it should not have been used in this application. Also the yellow strip is not adequate for indentifying the grounded conductor (neutral)--white tape should have been used.

    - - - Updated - - -


    It looks like a 250 kcmil copper service entrance conductor with a 4/0 aluminum tap to me.
    Nick, I'm not comfortable leaving you with "Roland"s reply to your question as to what is type USE-2 'wire' (sic) as USE-2 is (a cable BTW not a "wire") an equipment (construction) type and 'wiring method' (application) type designation and not merely or specifically anything to do with a type or form of insulation, and only when singularly typed/rated/designated would 'Roland''s presumptions apply. Multiply typed/rated, listed & tested equipment did and does exist. Without examining markings, etc. one cannot "know" what coatings, plastics, etc. or "devine" without reading the jacket markings and/or the tag/markings on the original spool. The horizontal smoke emission is covered in UL 44 amongst other standards. I see no markings on the cable(s) other than the yellow indicating which does not preclude/exclude dual type/rated or triple rated/typed cable (URD), e.g., triple rated URD triplex or quad (rated/typed RHH and/or RHW-2 and/or USE-2) w/ or w/o add. sunlight resistance and/or CT USE explined below, as can also be found in mkt place with yellow striped indicated neutral for resi secondary URD. One can not assume solely by a yellow striped neutral that the cable is JUST and only singularly designated/typed USE-2!

    I know I have posted the UL Wire Marking Guide (which is also included as addendum/appendix of the UL White Book, before in pdf format, and in the past also to the "at the time" direct link to download same when having done so. Hopefully you afforded yourself of same and retain in your manual or electronic library, and coninue to do so with each new edition, as UL no longer hosts and makes available the older, superceded editions (just the current ones regarding marking guides/white book, etc.).

    USE-2 is a cable designation type not merely an "insulation" type, and is covered by UL 854 (Service Entrance Cables) The "U" is "Underground", the "SE" is for "Service Entrance" without a "-2" would indicate wet location 75 degrees C/Dry location 90 degrees C, the "-2" indicates 90 degrees C Wet OR Dry.

    Nick: Read all the way through the following UL Scope for UL 854 (clickable link follows below) including all of 1.7...:

    Scope for UL 854

    Dual-rated, triple-rated, (designated, listed, tested) cables as in other wires/cables are allowed to be used as wiring methods do exist in the market place.

    A number of manufactures produce URD which is triple-rated and marked as USE-2/RHH/RHW-2 (USE-2 or RHH or RHW-2) (generically URD) and some of which are further marked "CT USE" (cable tray use). Those which are, are further listed to UL-44 and are allowed to continue indoors. Those indicated "Sunlight Resistant" are approved for further application other than merely service lateral to outside riser service equipment/service point.

    See also Scope for UL 44.

    One such example: http://www.cable.alcan.com/CablePublic/en-US/Products/STABILOY+Aluminum+Feeder+Cable/Non+Residential+Feeder+Cable/STABILOY+USE2+RHH+RHW2.



    Quote Originally Posted by from link above
    General Cable's Type USE-2/RHH/RHW-2 feeder cable is designed for residential, commercial, and industrial building construction, as well as in underground power distribution and network systems. It is also used in cable trays (with "CT USE" marking) and messenger supported wiring applications.

    • Compact, stranded conductor that is rated at 600 volts Sunlight resistant with a maximum operating temperature of 90░C in dry and wet locations
    • Meets the requirements of Underwriters Laboratories Inc., Standard #854 for Type USE-2 and Standard #44 for Types RHH and RHW-2
    • Conductor insulation is free of harmful heavy metals in compliance with RoHS, Directive 2002/95/EC
    • Triple-Rated (USE-2 or RHH or RHW-2) URD cables can be used as Type USE-2 direct-buried underground service entrance cable*, but is also listed as RHH and RHW-2, making it suitable for applications in raceways for general purpose lighting and power circuits covered under the National Electrical Code

      *Note: Triple-rated URD can be used whether the service point is outside or within the structure"

    Came back after a nap and Edited/Added: I've attached two slip sheets (one for a yellow striped neutral triplex triple rated URD and one for a white striped triple rated) as well as a short catalog for SEs with several dual and triple rated. URD is short for Underground Residential Distribution (cable/s) if I'm remembering correctly (still sleep fogged at the moment, and expect to nod off again soon).

    HTH.

    Am unclear as to why "Robert" doesn't think that's a >5 ft tap. I see nothing suggesting SDS or TSF switching. Am concerned as to lack of continuous bonding between the two panels as one as the plastic conduit between them , and that both together seem to be comprising the service equipment disconnect (2).

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-20-2013 at 02:20 PM. Reason: added three attachments one cat and 2 slip sheets (one yellow stripe tri one white stripe tri).

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    Exclamation Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    P.S.

    Nick,

    WHAT IS THAT you're holding in your (while pointing) hand (into the panel area) within inch of the unfused, (uninsulted) conductor terminations?

    IIRC, you wear a ring on that hand, and a watch on one of your wrists...were they being worn when this pic was taken?

    finger_in_mainpanel.jpg

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-20-2013 at 02:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Nick, I'm not comfortable leaving you with "Roland"s reply to your question as to what is type USE-2 'wire' (sic) as USE-2 is (a cable BTW not a "wire") an equipment (construction) type and 'wiring method' (application) type designation and not merely or specifically anything to do with a type or form of insulation, and only when singularly typed/rated/designated would 'Roland''s presumptions apply. Multiply typed/rated, listed & tested equipment did and does exist. Without examining markings, etc. one cannot "know" what coatings, plastics, etc. or "devine" without reading the jacket markings and/or the tag/markings on the original spool. The horizontal smoke emission is covered in UL 44 amongst other standards. I see no markings on the cable(s) other than the yellow indicating which does not preclude/exclude dual type/rated or triple rated/typed cable (URD), e.g., triple rated URD triplex or quad (rated/typed RHH and/or RHW-2 and/or USE-2) w/ or w/o add. sunlight resistance and/or CT USE explined below, as can also be found in mkt place with yellow striped indicated neutral for resi secondary URD. One can not assume solely by a yellow striped neutral that the cable is JUST and only singularly designated/typed USE-2!

    I know I have posted the UL Wire Marking Guide (which is also included as addendum/appendix of the UL White Book, before in pdf format, and in the past also to the "at the time" direct link to download same when having done so. Hopefully you afforded yourself of same and retain in your manual or electronic library, and coninue to do so with each new edition, as UL no longer hosts and makes available the older, superceded editions (just the current ones regarding marking guides/white book, etc.).

    USE-2 is a cable designation type not merely an "insulation" type, and is covered by UL 854 (Service Entrance Cables) The "U" is "Underground", the "SE" is for "Service Entrance" without a "-2" would indicate wet location 75 degrees C/Dry location 90 degrees C, the "-2" indicates 90 degrees C Wet OR Dry.

    Nick: Read all the way through the following UL Scope for UL 854 (clickable link follows below) including all of 1.7...:

    Scope for UL 854

    Dual-rated, triple-rated, (designated, listed, tested) cables as in other wires/cables are allowed to be used as wiring methods do exist in the market place.

    A number of manufactures produce URD which is triple-rated and marked as USE-2/RHH/RHW-2 (USE-2 or RHH or RHW-2) (generically URD) and some of which are further marked "CT USE" (cable tray use). Those which are, are further listed to UL-44 and are allowed to continue indoors. Those indicated "Sunlight Resistant" are approved for further application other than merely service lateral to outside riser service equipment/service point.

    See also Scope for UL 44.

    One such example: http://www.cable.alcan.com/CablePublic/en-US/Products/STABILOY+Aluminum+Feeder+Cable/Non+Residential+Feeder+Cable/STABILOY+USE2+RHH+RHW2.






    Came back after a nap and Edited/Added: I've attached two slip sheets (one for a yellow striped neutral triplex triple rated URD and one for a white striped triple rated) as well as a short catalog for SEs with several dual and triple rated. URD is short for Underground Residential Distribution (cable/s) if I'm remembering correctly (still sleep fogged at the moment, and expect to nod off again soon).

    HTH.

    Am unclear as to why "Robert" doesn't think that's a >5 ft tap. I see nothing suggesting SDS or TSF switching. Am concerned as to lack of continuous bonding between the two panels as one as the plastic conduit between them , and that both together seem to be comprising the service equipment disconnect (2).
    Even the newest Apprentice knows that everyone including UL and the NEC use "conductor, wire and cable" interchangeably. The insulation is inseparable from the uses "permitted or not permitted" in the NEC and according to UL. If you are implying that the specific chemical make-up of the insulation is not stated then you are correct. Otherwise you are making something of nothing. I might add that your lack of correct spelling, grammar and sentence structure as well as you agreeing to your own disagreement makes reading your pontificate very difficult. Using spell check and a grammar checker would make it easier to figure out whether or not you have made a point or simply raised more questions.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    This does not meet the definition of a tap conductors since there is no OCPD ahead of it. Since it's on the line side of the large circuit breaker it would be service entrance conductors.
    You are correct. I should not have taken the topic heading and simply called it a tap. If it helps at all, that reference would help identify this as the same conductor the RP was talking about. I have been reduced at times to speaking about "big" wires and "little"wires just to be on the same page as someone..

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    I'm more confused now than before I started this thread.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Robert Meier,

    NOWHERE in this discussion has anyone 'married' the words "tap" and "conductor" prior you your last post.

    NOONE but YOU has asserted or used the phrase/term "tap conductor" or "tap conductors".

    "Tap Conductors" were not and have not been discussed. They are NOT the subject of this discussion, and have nothing to do with what Nick (OP) is pointing to or asking about in his Posts!!!

    Nick is pointing to Tapped SERVICE ENTRANCE CONDUCTORS, i.e. Connections of Service entrance conductors, within service equipmentS, which IS ALLOWED, when grounded conductor/neutral is bonded to and through all of same, then and now.

    SHAME ON YOU! and SHAME ON YOUR having injected a non-applicable article-specific definition and term to an area to which it DOES NOT APPLY!

    This "TAP" or "CONNECTION" of SERVICE ENTRANCE CONDUCTORS has NOTHING TO DO WITH a FEEDER or Branch Circuit.

    The Article 240 (240.2) definition for the TERM "tap conductor" does NOT apply to the ACTUAL OP or photo (which has been mis-identified, mis-characterized, and wrongly described by the OP's author - Nick).

    The panel to the right is NOT a 'subpanel', it as the panel to the left, appear to BOTH be SERVICE EQUIPMENTS.

    I thought you above Peckishness with the "bury it in B.S." when you make an unjustifiable assertion (i.e. for at least the third time this year alone asserting/agreeing that if yellow striped it can ONLY be singluarly typed/rated/listed USE/USE-2, which is UNTRUE) and I'm frankly outraged you'd now resort to an unjustifiable and designed to CONFUSE the NON-ELECTRICIAN HOME INSPECTORS as to your Peckish word-smithing to imply, suggest, etc. that a UNIVERSAL term BEYOND THE NEC and USED IN THE NEC, i.e. THE SINGLE WORD/TERM "TAP" means "tap conductor" which it does NOT, NEVER DID, and STILL DOESN'T, or that "TAPS" can only occur on NEC installations, that they only occur LOAD SIDE of service entrance conductors, or that they (TAPS) can only be upon feeders or circuits, which is untrue.

    The pictured and pointed to ARE NOT "TAP CONDUCTORS", YOU are the only one to use that LIMITED, NEC defined TERM!

    I am dissapointed that you have resorted to having injected the word "conductors" and having married it to the GENERIC TERM "TAP", and applying an Article-specific definition of "tap conductor" which would never apply to the photographed OP-provided question/installation, which obviously pre-dates 2011 NEC.

    Only in the 2011 NEC did the word "TAP" change in its language specifically regarding this exact configuration/route of service entrance conductors' to "Connection" and in one place. The phrase & term "tap conductors" did NOT appear in the applicable section(s) or articles pertaining to THIS installation; NOR did it occur in this ENTIRE DISCUSSION UNTIL YOU INSERTED THE TERM/PHRASE in your justification post/response to me.


    Generic "Tap" 2011 NEC + the language would refer to "connection".

    To be fair to Nick (the OP) it MUST be explained.

    The second panel is service equipment as is the first - together they comprise service equipment, but may not the the entirety of same (700, 701, etc.).

    Since we cannot see the necessary assurances of bonding at panel 2, nor for that matter panel 1, and cannot assure that ONLY service entrance conductors are present in the service raceways, specifically that which is between panel 1 & 2, and we cannot see nor assure that both are properly bonded via the services' grounded conductors (netutral) and that BOTH panels are LISTED as service equipment and properly configured as same (esp. panel 2).

    No one but YOU asserted or used the TERM "Tap Conductor"/s, which does NOT apply to the installation/topic/question,

    Both YOU and Roland have asserted the service entrance conductors pictured are inappropriate - WITHOUT JUSTIFICATION, hving made incorrect conclusions without evidence or basis of any kind, other than your own inexperience/ignorance of listed equipment availability and/or acceptable/listed/rated/typed use.


    Dually, triple, etc. listings & ratings exist on mutitude of equipment and materials. Manufacturer's are allowed to exceed minimums and meet requirements of multitude of pplictions, as long as same is subjected to testing, and is listed by an NTL is appropriately marked, etc. it may be used as the code so indicates as per the AHJ and subject to the approval by the AHJ as to the circumstances of same.


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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    I'm more confused now than before I started this thread.
    I don't blame you Nick.


    Here's the scoop:

    As long as both panels are listed as Service Equipment AND configured AS SERVICE equipment, and the service entrance conductors/service conductors and the service equipment is continuously bonded through the service conductors' neutral/grounded conductor, its GOOD.

    What you are pointing to is a "tap" or "connection" of the service entrance conductors within "service equipment enclosures" which is allowed.

    Both enclosed panelboards configured as MCB are functioning as "service equipment" and should be "labeled" and configured for use as same, neither should have isolated grounding from grounded.

    The panel to the right should not be a "sub" and should not be configured as such.

    The service raceway between the two panels should contain nothing BUT the service conductors.

    Roland's & Robert's conclusions/statements regarding "USE-2" are unjustifiable assumptions as to the TYPE/RATING/Permitted use of the actual conductor material for the service entance conductors "having to be singularly typed/rated as USE-2" from the connection you point are baseless assumptions/meritless conclusions. Unsheathed triplex and grouping do not require reidentification where not terminating. Neither the areas where the service entrance conductors' neutral (grounded conductors) lands nor leaves either of the service equipmentS is visable in any of your photos, therefore it cannot be concluded it is unidentified by tag, tape, paint, etc.

    A yellow striped conductor is not evidence of singlularly rated/typed USE or USE-2. Even USE or USE-2 can be UL-44 complaint, there is no requirement that USE or USE-2 may not meet nor not be listed/rated to meet the flme/horizontal smoke test.

    Based solely on what can be seen in your photos and what IS NOT PICTURED, there isn't a basis to conclude anything is wrong, so far.

    Why did you refer to the enclosed panelboard to the right as a "sub"? It is not being "fed" it is supplied by service entrance conductors. Please explain what you found in the panel to the right to lead you to your statements in your original post and the title of same. (More pictures?)

    I've attached a diagram not quite exact to your pictured, perhaps will help.

    Oops, wrong image, Edited to attach correct image file.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-21-2013 at 01:56 PM. Reason: attached wrong image file

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    I thought the panel was fed incorrectly and should have been fed by a dedicated breaker in the main panel on the left, hence my ID'ing it as a sub.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    I thought the panel was fed incorrectly and should have been fed by a dedicated breaker in the main panel on the left, hence my ID'ing it as a sub.
    The panel to the right is not being "fed" it is supplied by service conductors, again, HOW was the panel configured? Was it configured AS SERVICE EQUIPMENT? (as that would be correct). Please explain/respond and/or post additional pictures if you are unsure as to the NATURE and Significance of the question.

    BTW, what were you holding in your left hand when you took the photo (with you pointing to the service (entance) conductors? Additionally, were you wearing your ring & watch while doing so?


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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    OK, I'll bite. The item in my left hand is a digital voice recorder. Yes, I was wearing my ring and watch.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    OK, I'll bite. The item in my left hand is a digital voice recorder. Yes, I was wearing my ring and watch.
    Previously asked: "WHAT IS THAT you're holding in your (while pointing) hand (into the panel area) within inch of the unfused, (uninsulted) conductor terminations?
    IIRC, you wear a ring on that hand, and a watch on one of your wrists...Were they being worn when this pic was taken?"

    Within an INCH.

    The digital recorder's power supply, conductive plastic, and you're also operating with the other hand an image capturing device also energized and of differing potential, neither the ring, watch, finger, nor the digital recorder in-pointing hand, should be IN THAT area of Service Equipment.

    Neither should the hand wearing ring, or watch, and most especially when not directly eyeing (not thorugh some other view finder or remote viewing) into the unprotected energized panel containing unfused, unprotected, energized conductors.

    Review NEC 70E and your SAFETY TRAINING procedures & PPE...'Go back and review BASIC SAFETY PROTOCOLS behind deadfront in connected to utility-and presumed to be energized (including interconnection to utility grounded conductor) equipment.Unless you're intent on personal injury or death and/or plan is to leave a wife and fatherless children penniless.

    "Black" plastic often high carbon content, in general, esp. modern "made in china" supposedly insulted devices (internal insultion).

    Sure you've opened a panel hundreds if not thousands of times - hopefully NOT doing as you've demonstrated in that picture!!!

    Its the ONE time an event occurs with DISTRIBUTION, weather, animal, or the slightest miscalculation and you're fribulated, toasted or worse.

    Its a demonstrated faux pas, PLEASE be safe out there. Correct the Bad safety practices - accident waiting to happen and be around for a long, long time.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-21-2013 at 03:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Previously asked: "WHAT IS THAT you're holding in your (while pointing) hand (into the panel area) within inch of the unfused, (uninsulted) conductor terminations?
    IIRC, you wear a ring on that hand, and a watch on one of your wrists...Were they being worn when this pic was taken?"

    Within an INCH.

    The digital recorder's power supply, conductive plastic, and you're also operating with the other hand an image capturing device also energized and of differing potential, neither the ring, watch, finger, nor the digital recorder in-pointing hand, should be IN THAT area of Service Equipment.

    Neither should the hand wearing ring, or watch, and most especially when not directly eyeing (not thorugh some other view finder or remote viewing) into the unprotected energized panel containing unfused, unprotected, energized conductors.

    Review NEC 70E and your SAFETY TRAINING procedures & PPE...'Go back and review BASIC SAFETY PROTOCOLS behind deadfront in connected to utility-and presumed to be energized (including interconnection to utility grounded conductor) equipment.Unless you're intent on personal injury or death and/or plan is to leave a wife and fatherless children penniless.

    "Black" plastic often high carbon content, in general, esp. modern "made in china" supposedly insulted devices (internal insultion).

    Sure you've opened a panel hundreds if not thousands of times - hopefully NOT doing as you've demonstrated in that picture!!!

    Its the ONE time an event occurs with DISTRIBUTION, weather, animal, or the slightest miscalculation and you're fribulated, toasted or worse.

    Its a demonstrated faux pas, PLEASE be safe out there. Correct the Bad safety practices - accident waiting to happen and be around for a long, long time.

    asĚsumpĚtion (-smpshn)
    n.
    1. The act of taking to or upon oneself: assumption of an obligation.
    2. The act of taking possession or asserting a claim: assumption of command.
    3. The act of taking for granted: assumption of a false theory.
    4. Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a supposition: a valid assumption.

    5. Presumption; arrogance.
    6. Logic A minor premise.

    HG, your lecture here regarding the proximity of my hand to the panel interior could not be further from the truth. What you are seeing in my pic in the first post of this thread is an illusion created by the camera. Now I don't have an exact distance documented as to how far my finger was from the panel as I was not expecting to have to defend myself and my inspection practices. But I was in no more danger and my hand was no closer to danger than I am every time I remove and replace a deadfront cover on a service panel.

    I appreciate your concern for my well being but your assumption is way off base.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I don't blame you Nick.


    Here's the scoop:

    As long as both panels are listed as Service Equipment AND configured AS SERVICE equipment, and the service entrance conductors/service conductors and the service equipment is continuously bonded through the service conductors' neutral/grounded conductor, its GOOD.

    What you are pointing to is a "tap" or "connection" of the service entrance conductors within "service equipment enclosures" which is allowed.

    Both enclosed panelboards configured as MCB are functioning as "service equipment" and should be "labeled" and configured for use as same, neither should have isolated grounding from grounded.

    The panel to the right should not be a "sub" and should not be configured as such.

    The service raceway between the two panels should contain nothing BUT the service conductors.

    Roland's & Robert's conclusions/statements regarding "USE-2" are unjustifiable assumptions as to the TYPE/RATING/Permitted use of the actual conductor material for the service entance conductors "having to be singularly typed/rated as USE-2" from the connection you point are baseless assumptions/meritless conclusions. Unsheathed triplex and grouping do not require reidentification where not terminating. Neither the areas where the service entrance conductors' neutral (grounded conductors) lands nor leaves either of the service equipmentS is visable in any of your photos, therefore it cannot be concluded it is unidentified by tag, tape, paint, etc.

    A yellow striped conductor is not evidence of singlularly rated/typed USE or USE-2. Even USE or USE-2 can be UL-44 complaint, there is no requirement that USE or USE-2 may not meet nor not be listed/rated to meet the flme/horizontal smoke test.

    Based solely on what can be seen in your photos and what IS NOT PICTURED, there isn't a basis to conclude anything is wrong, so far.


    Why did you refer to the enclosed panelboard to the right as a "sub"? It is not being "fed" it is supplied by service entrance conductors. Please explain what you found in the panel to the right to lead you to your statements in your original post and the title of same. (More pictures?)

    I've attached a diagram not quite exact to your pictured, perhaps will help.

    Oops, wrong image, Edited to attach correct image file.
    Type "USE-2" is clearly visible on the wire (conductor or cable) in the photo provided...

    Time for a eye appointment??

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Type "USE-2" is clearly visible on the wire (conductor or cable) in the photo provided...

    Time for a eye appointment??
    Show us ANY cable designation type markings on the service conductors Roland!


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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Attachment 29139
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Show us ANY cable designation type markings on the service conductors Roland!


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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Tnks, now what are the complete markings, those that preceed and follow both L's, and those preceeding and following the USE-2, all the way through and including the partial file No. (beginning with E-) esp. that "4".

    Photo enhancing software you used, not eyesight, expanding forum display only pixilates.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-22-2013 at 09:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Tnks, now what are the complete markings, those that preceed and follow both L's, and those preceeding and following the USE-2, all the way through and including the partial file No. (beginning with E-) esp. that "4".

    Photo enhancing software you used, not eyesight, expanding forum display only pixilates.

    I used the RPs photobucket picture. This is why I have only addressed the facts of this case and not "shotgunned" it... There a lot of unknowns we can "what if" about all day. You are pretty much just wasting everyone's time with your convoluted posts. You should try complete sentences. You will find it clears up your own thought processes....

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    No idea who or what RP is, OP is original poster.

    You're ignoring the /RHH/RHW-2 that follows USE-2 and preceeds the UL File No.

    Dual & tri-rated/typed/designated/listed IS allowed indoors, most triplex & esp. unjacketed, is multiply typed, rated & listed.

    As pictured its fully contained in service equipments and service raceways.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-22-2013 at 09:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Some days I really feel like giving up posting on this site. Just lurking in the shadows without contributing any more would be easier. I just got to posting again after being out of work for a few months and nothing has changed. It's the same nonsense, the same bickering, the same unfounded accusations, and the same "you're wrong......no, you're wrong" arguments that overtake the entire purpose of a thread. And way too much information many times that only serves to muddy the waters and create more confusion. One person always seems to be involved.

    I feel like I asked for a loaf of bread but was given a tour of the bakery instead.......and still haven't gotten my bread either.

    Last edited by Nick Ostrowski; 07-22-2013 at 11:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Some days I really feel like giving up posting on this site. Just lurking in the shadows without contributing any more would be easier. I just got to posting again after being out of work for a few months and nothing has changed. It's the same nonsense, the same bickering, the same unfounded accusations, and the same "you're wrong......no, you're wrong" arguments that overtake the entire purpose of a thread. And way too much information many times that only serves to muddy the waters and create more confusion. One person always seems to be involved.

    I feel like I asked for a loaf of bread but was given a tour of the bakery instead.......and still haven't gotten my bread either.
    Nick-I sent you a private message. Thanks

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Nick-I sent you a private message. Thanks

    Thanks Roland. I wasn't talking about you but I know where you're coming from as I've been in your shoes before.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    I answered your question. The set up is NOT incorrect if the panel to the right is set up as service equipment as should the panel to the left.


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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Nick - PM sent


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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Previously asked: "WHAT IS THAT you're holding in your (while pointing) hand (into the panel area) within inch of the unfused, (uninsulted) conductor terminations? Has nothing to do with NFPA 70E. You obviously have no experience with electrical safety.
    IIRC, you wear a ring on that hand, and a watch on one of your wrists...Were they being worn when this pic was taken?"

    Within an INCH.

    The digital recorder's power supply, conductive plastic, and you're also operating with the other hand an image capturing device also energized and of differing potential, neither the ring, watch, finger, nor the digital recorder in-pointing hand, should be IN THAT area of Service Equipment.Give us a reference that says this..Mine says its an "avoid contact zone" 50-240 volts.

    Neither should the hand wearing ring, or watch, and most especially when not directly eyeing (not thorugh some other view finder or remote viewing) into the unprotected energized panel containing unfused, unprotected, energized conductors. WOW where did you dream this crap up? At 240 volts this is an avoid zone at best..

    Review NEC 70E and your SAFETY TRAINING procedures & PPE...'Go back and review BASIC SAFETY PROTOCOLS behind deadfront in connected to utility-and presumed to be energized (including interconnection to utility grounded conductor) equipment. Doesn't have anything to do with anything. Unless you're intent on personal injury or death and/or plan is to leave a wife and fatherless children penniless.The sky is falling!!!

    "Black" plastic often high carbon content, in general, esp. modern "made in china" supposedly insulted devices (internal insultion)Doesn't matter. All plastic is conductive.

    Sure you've opened a panel hundreds if not thousands of times - hopefully NOT doing as you've demonstrated in that picture!! HG-you don't know what he did or didn't do. He may not have even opened the panel himself. And maybe it was "deenergized" in line with NFPA 70E...

    Its the ONE time an event occurs with DISTRIBUTION, weather, animal, or the slightest miscalculation and you're fribulated, toasted or wors Whether it is a distribution or not has nothing to do with it.

    Its a demonstrated faux pas You have no way of knowing this so this is crap, PLEASE be safe out there. Correct the Bad safety practices assumption - accident waiting to happen and be around for a long, long time.

    This is completely off topic and full of "
    reactionists" crap. You certainly shouldn't be giving advise on electrical safety if this is the best you can come up with. Lets scare someone so they can't do their job. Again your lack of grammar, convoluted sentences and disconnected thoughts make it difficult to separate any actual facts that may be useful from your BS.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    I'll say one last thing on this and let this thread go. The unsubstantiated assumptions and wild conclusions made regarding my "perceived" unsafe inspection practices are just as irresponsible as the actions I was improperly and unjustifiably accused of doing. All of this was based on one picture that can only be viewed in 2D and miles upon miles away from where the inspection took place.

    I'll take a phrase out of your book HG that you used earlier in this thread and apply it......shame on you. Shame on you for jumping to conclusions regarding something you know very little about. You obviously paint yourself as an expert and believe yourself to be one. So how does that look when some people here who may hold your input in high regard see what you have to say about my inspection practices? They may think I'm a dope and a danger to myself and anybody around me Even though that is far from the case. Your unfounded accusations and self-appointed expert status carry weight with others (though they carry none at all with me). You and I have gone around and around many times in the past and your constant jabs at me never seem to end. I go away for a few months and when I come back, it's the same old crap.

    I don't want an apology, I don't want a PM message, I don't want an explanation. The only thing I want is an end to threads being continually derailed by egos and holier-than-thou attitudes.

    There, now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'm sure nothing will change.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    If possible, I'd like to some bottom line responses, cuz I'm a wee bit confused...Please HG, no responses from you:

    - Does everyone agree the double taps are allowed? If so, why?

    - What about the Aluminum/Copper connections in the lugs? That seems wrong to me. Or am I missing something:


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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    If possible, I'd like to some bottom line responses, cuz I'm a wee bit confused...Please HG, no responses from you:

    - Does everyone agree the double taps are allowed? If so, why?

    - What about the Aluminum/Copper connections in the lugs? That seems wrong to me. Or am I missing something:
    I haven't followed the entire thread but from what I have read HG has been correct about the four conductors connected to the four lugs at the top of the panel. If you look at the second pic of the original post, it shows four lugs that can be 2/0 - 250 MCM copper or aluminum. Just looks like a splice of the SEC to me. When I hear "double tap" I think of two conductors under one lug, that's not what is pictured.

    Last edited by Vern Heiler; 07-23-2013 at 08:37 PM.
    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    The lugs are for two conductors. The lugs do not allow the copper and aluminum to touch. The lugs would need to be listed for both materials.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    I like it when the generalist tells someone that works in the field and is known as a knowledgeable professional that they don't know what they are talking about.

    If that person had read them post correctly they would has seen that they were not considered taps. Why let facts get in the way of condescension.?


    From post #6

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    I agree about the conductor with the yellow stripe but I'm not so sure that I would call those conductors a tap.

    Seems the confusion started here from post #7

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Am unclear as to why "Robert" doesn't think that's a >5 ft tap. I see nothing suggesting SDS or TSF switching. Am concerned as to lack of continuous bonding between the two panels as one as the plastic conduit between them , and that both together seem to be comprising the service equipment disconnect (2).


    Post #9 clarified why RM did not think they were taps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    This does not meet the definition of a tap conductors since there is no OCPD ahead of it. Since it's on the line side of the large circuit breaker it would be service entrance conductors.

    Next we have this from HG.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Robert Meier,
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post

    NOWHERE in this discussion has anyone 'married' the words "tap" and "conductor" prior you your last post.

    NOONE but YOU has asserted or used the phrase/term "tap conductor" or "tap conductors".

    "Tap Conductors" were not and have not been discussed. They are NOT the subject of this discussion, and have nothing to do with what Nick (OP) is pointing to or asking about in his Posts!!!

    Nick is pointing to Tapped SERVICE ENTRANCE CONDUCTORS, i.e. Connections of Service entrance conductors, within service equipmentS, which IS ALLOWED, when grounded conductor/neutral is bonded to and through all of same, then and now.

    SHAME ON YOU! and SHAME ON YOUR having injected a non-applicable article-specific definition and term to an area to which it DOES NOT APPLY!

    This "TAP" or "CONNECTION" of SERVICE ENTRANCE CONDUCTORS has NOTHING TO DO WITH a FEEDER or Branch Circuit.

    The Article 240 (240.2) definition for the TERM "tap conductor" does NOT apply to the ACTUAL OP or photo (which has been mis-identified, mis-characterized, and wrongly described by the OP's author - Nick).


    Seems like someone needs to slow down and read what is written instead of being in a hurry to blast everyone.

    Last edited by Jim Port; 07-23-2013 at 09:01 PM.
    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The lugs are for two conductors. The lugs do not allow the copper and aluminum to touch. The lugs would need to be listed for both materials.
    Doesn't look like the copper is touching the aluminum and the label says CU - AL.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    Even the newest Apprentice knows that everyone including UL and the NEC use "conductor, wire and cable" interchangeably. .
    A cable is not the same as a conductor or wire. A cable is an assembly consisting of conductors and other components.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Doesn't look like the copper is touching the aluminum and the label says CU - AL.
    Sounds like all is good then.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Double Tap Off Main Lugs

    The question was answered in post #2. It got complicated after that.

    I guess Jim is not a new apprentice.

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