Results 1 to 35 of 35
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    574

    Default Conflict with a licensed electrician

    OK, so I get this call from the electrician that installed this panel in a new home.
    I wrote it up as UNSAFE as you can see from the picture the ground terminal bar is only connected to the metal panel box. There is no #6 ground conductor.

    Also you can see that the ground and neutral conductors are isolated, not connected.

    The electrician called me to blast me out cause he was the licensed person, not me. He advised me that he grounded the meter box (and it looks like it was) and there was no need for additional grounding in the panel. He said it was code.

    So, I believe this is still an unsafe condition. I don't have any code reference but I know this can't be right.

    Can someone help me with comments and code references for my future discussions with this individual.

    Thanks!

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Inspection Referral
    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,899

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    There is no need for any additional connection to the enclosure or neutral bar besides the mounting screws that are enclosed with the auxullary ground bar.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    1,258

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    The green bonding screw has it covered.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    574

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Robinson View Post
    The green bonding screw has it covered.
    Jim,

    Are you saying that the green bonding screw is the mechanical connection between neutral bars and panel cover (same at ground terminal bar)?

    It looks like there is no connection between the two? That neutral bar looks like it is isolated from the panel cover (or ground terminal.)

    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

  5. #5
    Mbrooke's Avatar
    Mbrooke Guest

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Amelin View Post
    OK, so I get this call from the electrician that installed this panel in a new home.
    I wrote it up as UNSAFE as you can see from the picture the ground terminal bar is only connected to the metal panel box. There is no #6 ground conductor.

    Also you can see that the ground and neutral conductors are isolated, not connected.

    The electrician called me to blast me out cause he was the licensed person, not me. He advised me that he grounded the meter box (and it looks like it was) and there was no need for additional grounding in the panel. He said it was code.

    So, I believe this is still an unsafe condition. I don't have any code reference but I know this can't be right.

    Can someone help me with comments and code references for my future discussions with this individual.

    Thanks!

    Its safe, in that the green screw on the neutral bar provides a conductive path between the tub and neutral bar. Should a fault occur on say a branch circuit, current will pass through the branch egc, through the ground bus, through the tub, through the green screw and into the neutral bar. As long as no neutral conductors are terminated to those ground bars its code complaint. A neutral wire will still pass power, however it violates the NEC's objective of limiting objective currents (cant have constant current on grounding parts)


    Only one thing I might not be seeing in that panel is a water bond and ground electrode wire?

    Other than this so far its ok.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Posts
    2,480

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Interesting. I have never seen a service equipment panel done this way. I thought the GEC had to be at the service equipment. At least, that is the way it is always done around here. But then again, we pretty much always use combination panels rather than separate meter and service equipment panels. I would have made a similar call as Ken did. Probably would have said "improper" rather than "unsafe".

    Department of Redundancy Department
    http://www.FullCircleInspect.com/

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    2,365

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    I got "schooled" on the exact same situation on the exact same panel a couple years back. The bonding effect of one small screw just seems inadequate. It's funny... I've been training a new inspector lately and he asked the exact same question on the same Square D panel.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    574

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbrooke View Post

    Only one thing I might not be seeing in that panel is a water bond and ground electrode wire?

    Other than this so far its ok.
    It's funny you mention that because this is another problem I had on this house. The main water supply is copper pipe that transitions into plastic. Again I wrote up that the metal piping should be bonded to the electrical panel. The electrician complained that the copper pipe didn't have to be bonded if it was less than 10 feet long. I asked that he show me where this is written in the code. He said he wasn't sure but the AHJ told him that.

    Anyone have a code reference that states how much pipe needs to exist before it is bonded?

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

  9. #9
    Mbrooke's Avatar
    Mbrooke Guest

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Amelin View Post
    It's funny you mention that because this is another problem I had on this house. The main water supply is copper pipe that transitions into plastic. Again I wrote up that the metal piping should be bonded to the electrical panel. The electrician complained that the copper pipe didn't have to be bonded if it was less than 10 feet long. I asked that he show me where this is written in the code. He said he wasn't sure but the AHJ told him that.

    Anyone have a code reference that states how much pipe needs to exist before it is bonded?
    Just a few thoughts,

    Pipe aside the panel needs a #6 copper to 2 grounding electrodes outside not less than 6 ft apart. Technically you can have 1 ground rod if at the time of instal its proven that it has a resistance of less than 25 ohms. But most electrician just assume to skip the test and add 2, which is ok. And of course in prior codes only 1 was adequate. In regards to this service its safe to say there is a code violation by not having any ground rods. The electrician goofed on this part.


    As for the water source it must be bonded if the incoming pipe from the street is metal in that its considered a supplementary ground electrode. An yup, there times when the ultra low resistance from metal street pipes comes in handy big time like during lightning or an open service neutral.

    If the pipe is plastic from the street yet metal through out the rest of the house you still need to bond the metal parts in that should a live wire come in contact with a water pipe, the fault will be cleared. With out that bond, should a fault occur anywhere in the house all the metal plumbing pipes will become energized. If someone is say standing on wet ground while handling a water spigot the situation becomes very dangerous as a result.

    A #4 copper or #2 aluminum wire (or larger if desired) is required to be used as a water bond for a 200amp residential service.

    Now in your case Im not sure what is going on, However, if the incoming is plastic, as well as the house, you don't need to bond a short section of copper plumbing pipe. The thing though Im not aware of any code blurb that dictates how short or long a small section can be (doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just have not heard of it) that needs to be bonded. In your case if the incoming water pipe is plastic and just that small visible section near the meter is metal than I think you don't have to bonded. The electrician may be right on this part. I would check with the AHJ.

    Of note, just being picky as I always am I notice extension cords in your pic. I would recommend bringing up that a plug be added behind the dehumidifier just to avoid those extra cords.

    Here is what the NEC section that requires the water bond says:

    250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural
    Steel.
    (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system
    shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of
    this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in
    accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of
    attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
    (1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or
    attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the
    service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the
    service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient
    size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.
    The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table
    250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).
    (2) Buildings of Multiple Occupancy. In buildings of
    multiple occupancy where the metal water piping system(s)
    installed in or attached to a building or structure for the
    individual occupancies is metallically isolated from all
    other occupancies by use of nonmetallic water piping, the
    metal water piping system(s) for each occupancy shall be
    permitted to be bonded to the equipment grounding terminal
    of the panelboard or switchboard enclosure (other than
    service equipment) supplying that occupancy. The bonding
    jumper shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.122,
    based on the rating of the overcurrent protective device for
    the circuit supplying the occupancy.
    (3) Multiple Buildings or Structures Supplied by a
    Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s). The metal water piping
    system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure
    shall be bonded to the building or structure disconnecting
    means enclosure where located at the building or structure,
    to the equipment grounding conductor run with the supply
    conductors, or to the one or more grounding electrodes
    used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance
    with 250.66, based on the size of the feeder or branch
    circuit conductors that supply the building. The bonding
    jumper shall not be required to be larger than the largest
    ungrounded feeder or branch circuit conductor supplying
    the building.
    (B) Other Metal Piping. If installed in, or attached to, a
    building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including
    gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be
    bonded to the service equipment enclosure; the grounded
    conductor at the service; the grounding electrode conductor,
    if of sufficient size; or to one or more grounding electrodes
    used. The bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s) shall be
    sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the
    circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The
    equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely
    to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the
    bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding
    jumper(s) shall be accessible.
    Informational Note No. 1: Bonding all piping and metal
    air ducts within the premises will provide additional safety.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    574

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbrooke View Post
    Just a few thoughts,

    Pipe aside the panel needs a #6 copper to 2 grounding electrodes outside not less than 6 ft apart. Technically you can have 1 ground rod if at the time of instal its proven that it has a resistance of less than 25 ohms. But most electrician just assume to skip the test and add 2, which is ok. And of course in prior codes only 1 was adequate. In regards to this service its safe to say there is a code violation by not having any ground rods. The electrician goofed on this part.


    As for the water source it must be bonded if the incoming pipe from the street is metal in that its considered a supplementary ground electrode. An yup, there times when the ultra low resistance from metal street pipes comes in handy big time like during lightning or an open service neutral.

    If the pipe is plastic from the street yet metal through out the rest of the house you still need to bond the metal parts in that should a live wire come in contact with a water pipe, the fault will be cleared. With out that bond, should a fault occur anywhere in the house all the metal plumbing pipes will become energized. If someone is say standing on wet ground while handling a water spigot the situation becomes very dangerous as a result.

    A #4 copper or #2 aluminum wire (or larger if desired) is required to be used as a water bond for a 200amp residential service.

    Now in your case Im not sure what is going on, However, if the incoming is plastic, as well as the house, you don't need to bond a short section of copper plumbing pipe. The thing though Im not aware of any code blurb that dictates how short or long a small section can be (doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just have not heard of it) that needs to be bonded. In your case if the incoming water pipe is plastic and just that small visible section near the meter is metal than I think you don't have to bonded. The electrician may be right on this part. I would check with the AHJ.

    Of note, just being picky as I always am I notice extension cords in your pic. I would recommend bringing up that a plug be added behind the dehumidifier just to avoid those extra cords.

    Here is what the NEC section that requires the water bond says:

    250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural
    Steel.
    (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system
    shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of
    this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in
    accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of
    attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
    (1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or
    attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the
    service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the
    service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient
    size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.
    The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table
    250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).
    (2) Buildings of Multiple Occupancy. In buildings of
    multiple occupancy where the metal water piping system(s)
    installed in or attached to a building or structure for the
    individual occupancies is metallically isolated from all
    other occupancies by use of nonmetallic water piping, the
    metal water piping system(s) for each occupancy shall be
    permitted to be bonded to the equipment grounding terminal
    of the panelboard or switchboard enclosure (other than
    service equipment) supplying that occupancy. The bonding
    jumper shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.122,
    based on the rating of the overcurrent protective device for
    the circuit supplying the occupancy.
    (3) Multiple Buildings or Structures Supplied by a
    Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s). The metal water piping
    system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure
    shall be bonded to the building or structure disconnecting
    means enclosure where located at the building or structure,
    to the equipment grounding conductor run with the supply
    conductors, or to the one or more grounding electrodes
    used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance
    with 250.66, based on the size of the feeder or branch
    circuit conductors that supply the building. The bonding
    jumper shall not be required to be larger than the largest
    ungrounded feeder or branch circuit conductor supplying
    the building.
    (B) Other Metal Piping. If installed in, or attached to, a
    building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including
    gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be
    bonded to the service equipment enclosure; the grounded
    conductor at the service; the grounding electrode conductor,
    if of sufficient size; or to one or more grounding electrodes
    used. The bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s) shall be
    sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the
    circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The
    equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely
    to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the
    bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding
    jumper(s) shall be accessible.
    Informational Note No. 1: Bonding all piping and metal
    air ducts within the premises will provide additional safety.
    Thanks for this info, but the grounding of the system was discussed in the early part of this thread, and from what was said, it looks like it is OK. (I learned something new - Again).

    My follow up question which is still unresolved, is in regards to bonding the water service pipe. You can see from the photo it is copper for some distance then changes to plastic. (the entrance pipe through the foundation and before the meter is also plastic.) The AHJ told the electrician that it didn't need to be bonded if it was less than 10 feet long. I'm trying to determine how the AHJ came up with that length of pipe??

    Any thoughts?

    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

  11. #11
    Mbrooke's Avatar
    Mbrooke Guest

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Amelin View Post
    Thanks for this info, but the grounding of the system was discussed in the early part of this thread, and from what was said, it looks like it is OK. (I learned something new - Again).

    My follow up question which is still unresolved, is in regards to bonding the water service pipe. You can see from the photo it is copper for some distance then changes to plastic. (the entrance pipe through the foundation and before the meter is also plastic.) The AHJ told the electrician that it didn't need to be bonded if it was less than 10 feet long. I'm trying to determine how the AHJ came up with that length of pipe??

    Any thoughts?
    The separate ground bars are ok along with green screw, however the only issue is no #6 to ground rods. Just want to make sure the correct info went out.

    Anyways, I am not sure how the AHJ got the number unless he told the electrician that if a pipe in soil is more than 10ft long it is to be considered a grounding electrode. Such a thing can take place if say the pipe from the street into the yard is plastic, then goes 10ft from say an emergency valve in the yard, into the basement than immediately over to plastic once inside the basement. Because that small chunk is underground it is to be bonded. Same to an out building from an occupancy.

    However, Im not aware of any code article requiring that a short piece of metal water pipe inside the structure be bonded. It might exist somewhere, most likely a local code amendment, but its not coming to me.


    In the link the picture to the right with "10ft" on the pipe might be what the AHJ is referencing with the electrician confusing as applying to interior piping. However it doesn't apply to interior piping sections, but another code rule might dictate that a small metal pipe length in a structure must be bonded, but I cant find it. I will let you know if I do find anything though. Sorry about that

    Section #1 Continuing Education for License Renewal: 250.68(C) Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes. Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal.





  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    574

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    If the buried water pipe is 10' or longer, metallic and in contact with the earth then it's a grounding electrode and must be connected to the system. If would also require to be supplemented by at least one other electrode. If it is not in contact with the earth for 10' or more then the metal interior piping may require bonding. The interior bonding is required only if it's a complete metal piping system. Short sections of metal piping interspersed with not metallic piping do not make a metal piping system and therefore bonding is not required.
    Thanks, that's helpful.

    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,547

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Re: the green bonding screw, all main service panels in the country of Canada are required to be wired that same way. Grounding conductor to the neutral bus, bonding screw bonds them to the box. Also in Canada, branch grounding conductors are always separated on their own bus, but they are not isolated because of that bonding screw.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Lansdale, PA
    Posts
    876

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Amelin View Post
    OK, so I get this call from the electrician that installed this panel in a new home.
    I wrote it up as UNSAFE as you can see from the picture the ground terminal bar is only connected to the metal panel box. There is no #6 ground conductor.

    Also you can see that the ground and neutral conductors are isolated, not connected.

    The electrician called me to blast me out cause he was the licensed person, not me. He advised me that he grounded the meter box (and it looks like it was) and there was no need for additional grounding in the panel. He said it was code.

    So, I believe this is still an unsafe condition. I don't have any code reference but I know this can't be right.

    Can someone help me with comments and code references for my future discussions with this individual.

    Thanks!
    This is unusual for residential installations, but it seems to be common for what is done in commercial work. As others have said, I believe it is correct.

    Probably best not to call things unsafe, unless you are sure you know that your are correct.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Rock Hill S.C.
    Posts
    94

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Also in Canada, branch grounding conductors are always separated on their own bus, but they are not isolated because of that bonding screw.
    John, just curious, but do you know why they require them to be separate then bonded at the service panel?


  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,899

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McIntyre View Post
    John, just curious, but do you know why they require them to be separate then bonded at the service panel?
    If the grounds were not bonded back to the neutral there is no path to trip the breaker. The enclosure would stay live.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Massacusetts
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    I hope you took a base ball bat to this guys head , after all we wouldn't want anyone to think you were wrong (were so nice up here in Boston - we settle things the old fashion way - we beat the crap out them )


    OK , here is what I see that you did not. the meter box is grounded and it is through that meter box where the bonding between the neutral and ground might be taking place. The ground is bonded (and I can not tell if the conduit is PVC or metal) through the conduit.


    So if I am wrong , beat the crap out the guy - That is what we do in Falmouth otherwise - Take your beating like a man especially if your from Osterville .

    Last edited by Dwight Doane; 09-19-2013 at 08:02 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,547

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McIntyre View Post
    John, just curious, but do you know why they require them to be separate then bonded at the service panel?
    It makes a neat and tidy installation, easier to inspect?
    No, I don't know what the motivation was but it has been done this way since the 50's. Bare grounding wires never go to the neutral bus. Simple rule.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Posts
    2,480

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    It makes a neat and tidy installation, easier to inspect?
    No, I don't know what the motivation was but it has been done this way since the 50's. Bare grounding wires never go to the neutral bus. Simple rule.
    Once again, around here, the neutrals and grounds nearly always share the neutral buss in the service equipment.

    Department of Redundancy Department
    http://www.FullCircleInspect.com/

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McIntyre View Post
    John, just curious, but do you know why they require them to be separate then bonded at the service panel?
    The neutral is to carry unbalanced current and the ground wire or bonding conductor is for safety and is not supposed to carry current (exception is a fault condition)
    Grounding the neutral at the main overcurrent protection(where the bonding screw is between the neutral bar and enclosure) and not just at the meter base, eliminates energizing all the ground points in your installation if you were to have a poor connection between the meter base and panel neutral bar.



  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Massacusetts
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    From the photo the green screw is the main bonding jumper.[/QUOTE]


    I know the little green screw is the bonding between the neutral and ground (remember there are other points as well). Now I know this might sound hard to believe but there should be no current flowing between your neutral and ground - any that is building up is discharged (which is why the bonding can be so small) Also if there was a massive surge say a lightning strike both the neutral and ground are (or suppose to be) grounded.

    The Neutral wire is even grounded out at the pole , at least at the transformer and there is suppose to be a ground connection at every pole (this is still work in progress). The Ground and Neutral are suppose to be bonded at the Main Disconnect. The Grounds are suppose to have a direct path to ground (grounding rod, water pipe). So what ever potential energy you have between the two is based (newer construction) on wire resistance.

    Older construction - especially knob and tube that has partial updates (not the entire system) I have seen grounds floating at 45 VDC - Think there was a problem ? No wonder the metal radiators had a shocking effect on everyone ?

    In General - if it is new construction . chances are it is being done right - Best Advise is that in the future on New Construction if you have a question about something being done wrong - talk to the person who did the work first - He or she might know of changes to the code before your do - remember it is their profession


    (See this is why you need a baseball bat - so when you accuse someone of doing something wrong they can't respond and no one questions you. )


  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    574

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    Probably best not to call things unsafe, unless you are sure you know that your are correct.
    I learned a lot from the answers of everyone in response to this post and thank everyone for their input. Great comments!! - I got taken to school on this one.

    My first "reflection" on this was "Hmm maybe I shouldn't have noted an unsafe condition", but after much thought I believe I was correct in what I reported as unsafe. "NO ONE" knows everything and we only report on what we see and what we believe. If we believe there is an unsafe condition we should report it!! Under no circumstances should we "Downplay" a condition we believe is unsafe. If we are incorrect then so-be-it. Take your lumps and learn from it.

    But to all those "newbies" (or "oldbies" like me) out there - if you see something that you believe is unsafe - SAY IT!. It is always better to err on the safe side.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Doane View Post
    In General - if it is new construction . chances are it is being done right - Best Advise is that in the future on New Construction if you have a question about something being done wrong - talk to the person who did the work first - He or she might know of changes to the code before your do - remember it is their profession.
    Dwight - "In General" - I don't buy this. I am not going to try to find out who the builder, investor or sub-contractor might be on the project for things that I believe are defects or problems. Do you really believe that all new construction work is flawless! and we should go back to the person who did the work on everything we find?? I report on what "I believe" is correct. As noted above we are not always correct and I do take a responsible position on what I report, but the burden is on the owner or person who installed it to go back and rectify or determine there is no problem.

    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    574

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    What is that just in front of the red arrow, is that a piece of conduit?

    It is. It looks like the meter socket is grounded.

    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Rock Hill S.C.
    Posts
    94

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Jones View Post
    The neutral is to carry unbalanced current and the ground wire or bonding conductor is for safety and is not supposed to carry current (exception is a fault condition)
    Grounding the neutral at the main overcurrent protection(where the bonding screw is between the neutral bar and enclosure) and not just at the meter base, eliminates energizing all the ground points in your installation if you were to have a poor connection between the meter base and panel neutral bar.
    The reason for my question was, I don't see the difference between separating the grounds and neutrals then bonding them, vs, sharing the same bar. Actually a loose bonding screw and the equipment grounds have no fault path.


  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Rock Hill S.C.
    Posts
    94

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    It may be possible that the GEC is in that conduit and goes straight to the meter neutral terminal. Some places allow the GEC to be connected at the meter enclosure. Around here it is not permitted because the meter enclosures are typically locked or sealed and the connection point for the GEC to the neutral is required by the NEC to be accessible.
    It may not be right, but this is the way it is done here 99% of the time.


  26. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    St. Louis, Mo. area.
    Posts
    276

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    I'm seeing that the meter box is probably properly grounded with a cable through the smaller exterior conduit to a grounding rod or two driven into the soil. I'm also seeing that the neutral buss in the main service panel is properly bonded to that cabinet. What I'm not seeing is where the main service panel cabinet is properly bonded to the meter panel box and its subsequent ground. The main service entry cable is only a three conductor cable, two hots and a neutral, with no separate ground or bonding cable. Assuming this is a Romex system, and not a conduit system, this setup is forcing the neutral conductor portion of the service entry cable to also serve as the grounding system for the house, but yet the grounding system is supposed to be the separate emergency route in the event of a failure of the neutral system. I'd be looking for a larger gage grounding/bonding cable to be connecting this main service panel to either a ground or to the meter box. Unless this is a conduit system, where am I wrong here?


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    544

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    Not quite. There should be no separate equipment grounding conductor between the meter enclosure and the panel as it would provide an objectionable path for the neutral current. The 3-wire SEC's are correct. All bonding of metallic parts on the line of the service disconnect (the main CB in this case) is accomplished by a connection to the neutral. This is done in the meter enclosure as well as the panel. The GEC can connect to any point between the service disconnect and the service drop or lateral.

    The NEC is silent in regards to objectionable neutral current flow at the service equipment. There seems to be absolutely no concern about electrical safety with this matter, and no absolute solution to it either. There has never been shown that a hazard exists (ie, actual evidence) when neutral current at the service is not confined to the neutral. It would be impossible to accomplish the bonding required at the service if there were a problem.. Think about it...The NEC allows all the metal enclosures of service equipment, CT can, meter can, disconnect and overcurrent enclosure, to be bonded via the neutral.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    544

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    I had to add there is nothing on the supply side of the main disconnect that is ever refered to as an equipment grounding conductor. You can use all the bonding jumpers you want as long as they are sized correctly to 250.66. And you could actually install, according to the NEC, the fourth conductor between the meter and the first disconnect--it would be sized to 250.66 and called a bonding jumper. Although not common...

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    544

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Meier View Post
    Show us where it says that in the NEC that doesn't conflict with 250.6.

    You have your horse hooked up to the wrong end of the cart. That's not how the code is written, so you will need to shown that it creates objectionable current flow and specifically where my connection is not allowed in the NEC.. oh, I will save you some time--you won't be able to find it or show objectionable current..

    Last edited by Roland Miller; 09-22-2013 at 05:07 PM. Reason: type
    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    544

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    I am sorry, I have to ask Robert, did you bother to read my first post?? That contains the information that you needed to avoid your last post..

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    544

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Objectionable current is the neutral current that may flow on equipment grounding conductors because of faults (neutral to ground) down stream of the main disconnect.. Since there are no equipment grounding conductors on the supply side of the service disconnect there will be no objectionable current flowing. In regards to the second "bonding" conductor I said could be installed between the meter and the first disconnect. It is just that a bonding conductor. Will it and the metallic service raceway have neutral current flow on it?--yes, but the NEC is silent on this subject because it is an unavoidable consequence of service installations and the NEC. And they will all share fault current in fault conditions depending on their impedance. The NEC is still silent on this being a problem... Therefore it is not specifically prohibited by the NEC..

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    544

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    I see Robert is up to his old rabbit tricks. Always runs when the discussion goes beyond his ability to copy and paste from the NEC.

    Objectionable current on grounding and bonding paths comes from an improper neutral-to-case bond that creates a parallel path for neutral current to return to the power supply via metal parts of the system. It occurs in three common scenarios:

    • When a neutral-to-case bond exists in either a panelboard not part of service equipment or at the transformer and the secondary panelboard.
    • When a generator system's transfer switch doesn't open the normal power grounded (neutral) conductor, and the generator's ground and neutral conductors are bonded together.
    • When the bonding path serves as a neutral conductor, which happens when a 125V receptacle is installed at a switch location where a grounded (neutral) conductor is unavailable, and the equipment grounding conductor is used as the neutral.

      Objectionable current is discussed in the equipment that is not part of the service equipment. There can always be neutral current present on service equipment metallic raceways and the NEC doesn't address this.


    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    The advice and conclusions in this thread seem "all over the place." I would suggest that Mbrooke be paid attention to and much of the rest can be ignored. In relation to bonding of the short metal components, I would add that the way to look at this is that metallic "systems" are to be bonded and that short pieces of pipe do not have to be bonded anymore that an isolated metal faucet has to be bonded. While meter bases that are integral with the service disconnect will have the EGC present in the enclosure, in normal residential wiring it is most certainly going to be at the service disconnect. So in that regard, in the picture provided, where is the EGC for the service equipment? I have never heard of the EGS being at the Meter base that is not integral with the Service Disconnect location. Always willing to learn something new however, and been around long enough to never say never.


  34. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    New Westminster, B. C., Canada
    Posts
    165

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    Hi, ALL &

    Just let the Sparky know you'll bow to his claims - so long as he puts his assurance in WRITING, with a signature and on his Co. letterhead.

    That'll be the acid-test...

    Cheers !

    -Glenn Duxbury, CHI

  35. #35
    Robert Rolleston's Avatar
    Robert Rolleston Guest

    Default Re: Conflict with a licensed electrician

    One power company and the local regulations allow you to bond the ground to the meter socket and there is a lug inside the meter can for it. And they neutral of the SEU wire bonds the meter can to the main service. It's allowed in many places nothing wrong with this install if that is the way it's allowed.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •