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Thread: Soldered Romex

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    Default Soldered Romex

    During an inspection today I found the Romex wiring which had been added in the basement had all of the connections soldered. It was pretty easy to see since most of the junctions weren't in boxes and had no wire nuts. Those which were in boxes had no covers or wire nuts. Is soldering allowed?

    I ended up calling out the majority of the basement wiring due to the unprotected single strand wiring and lamp cord wiring run through the walls. They even had a lamp cord wired into the furnace. I'm just curious about the soldering since I've only seen that done with knob and tube wiring.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    During an inspection today I found the Romex wiring which had been added in the basement had all of the connections soldered. It was pretty easy to see since most of the junctions weren't in boxes and had no wire nuts. Those which were in boxes had no covers or wire nuts. Is soldering allowed?

    I ended up calling out the majority of the basement wiring due to the unprotected single strand wiring and lamp cord wiring run through the walls. They even had a lamp cord wired into the furnace. I'm just curious about the soldering since I've only seen that done with knob and tube wiring.
    IF I remember correctly, soldering is allowed.
    The wires are still needed to be twisted together and insulated (taped).
    Wire nuts are not required, twisted and taped is allowed.
    Of course connections need to be in boxes with covers on the boxes.
    And, of course you already know that lamp cord is never allowed.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    IF I remember correctly, soldering is allowed.
    The wires are still needed to be twisted together and insulated (taped).
    Wire nuts are not required, twisted and taped is allowed.
    Of course connections need to be in boxes with covers on the boxes.
    And, of course you already know that lamp cord is never allowed.
    mere 'twisting' prior to soldering only, not allowed, then nor now for an un-relieved in-line splice. Mechancially splicing first before tinning or soldering - and this involves a set of industry-known specific splice/knots not merely twisting together (such as one might do prior to installing a 'wire nut' in a box connecting relieved (not strained) spliced or joined conductors), and where necessary securing and assuring strain relief. The solder or 'tinning' does not perform a reliable mechanical connection, that is done by the "knot" splice, the solder just a low resistance highly conductive assured electrical continuity, and a less-reactive coating exposed to atmosphere.

    Splices have been required to be enclosed but accessible for decades. Friction tape and/or loaming has not been approved for plastic sheathed romex (ever) to my knowledge, however was considered acceptable in certain jurisdictions with a full linemans splice or WU splice in exposed open work for early romex (R) before thermoplastics or even rubber tined-copper-wire insulation was incorporated into same. Insulation of the splice when exposed was required, be it loam, friction tape, etc.

    I recall a city or town (far WNW of Chicago nearer Rockford IIRC) which had a quirky requirement may have been "Elgin" IIRC, of every connection irrespective of wiring method had to be tinned/soldered, even IF employing a "wire nut" within a box, even throughout the 80s, Resi & comm.

    Solder or tinning not prohibited but neither mechanically joins nor insulates, nor supercedes any required accessible enclosure to contain the splice point or connection to a device required to be enclosed.

    The forms various cables acceptable at different times for the low voltage connections from thermostats and rheostats to forced air furnaces have changed many times over the years, as has those for 'door bells' communications, antenae rotor power, etc.. Many cords and cables of differing specifications and vintages may appear similar to "lamp cord" on the outside, but may be other than same (i.e. cable), {"just sayin' "}.

    P.S. tinning connections pretty much was SOP when the conductor(s) itself/themselves is/are tinned copper (such as found in rubber-based insulated conductors, vintage romex, etc. or when rubber based tape or adhesives are employed, also for environmental considerations), wire-nut or not, looped under a pressure connector or not.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-20-2013 at 04:13 PM. Reason: had an afterthought after a nap, added a post-script.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post

    Solder or tinning not prohibited ...
    What I highlighted in bold is all that you really needed to say.
    His question was "Is soldering allowed?".
    The rest is useless, even confusing, for what he wanted to know (asked).
    As I said, Soldering is allowed, but the wire still needs "Twisting".
    Simply soldering the wire without twisting is not acceptable.
    And of course, connections must be in a box.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Mechancially splicing first before tinning or soldering - and this involves a set of industry-known specific splice/knots not merely twisting together (such as one might do prior to installing a 'wire nut' in a box connecting relieved (not strained) spliced or joined conductors), and where necessary securing and assuring strain relief.
    I agree in the principle of strain relief. In electronics, all connections are crimped before soldering. In K+T, one wire is tightly wrapped around another before soldering.
    Now if a splice of Romex-type conductors is made in a junction box, as it must be, and that j-box has cable clamps, the strain is relieved by the box, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post

    Friction tape and/or loaming has not been approved for plastic sheathed romex (ever) to my knowledge, however was considered acceptable in certain jurisdictions with a full linemans splice or WU splice in exposed open work for early romex (R) before thermoplastics or even rubber tined-copper-wire insulation was incorporated into same. Insulation of the splice when exposed was required, be it loam, friction tape, etc.
    Some late 60's wiring here, has copper crimped connectors.
    The splices are invariably taped with friction tape, and I believe taping was a requirement for those crimped connections. Yes before thermoplastic insulation, not questioning your statement.
    Not saying that your statement is wrong, just adding anecdotal info, with regards to the use of tape.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    I particularly like the comment where Watson doubts my ability to identify "lamp cord".

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post

    Many cords and cables of differing specifications and vintages may appear similar to "lamp cord" on the outside, but may be other than same (i.e. cable), {"just sayin' "}.

    Here's some pics of the wiring.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Looking at the pics none of that is allowed. The soldier joint at the breaker made me laugh. Who ever did this one was not thinking. All that is a fire and electrocution just waiting to happen.


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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    article 110.14(B) in the 2011 NEC states: Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing,welding,or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.


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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Any idea, besides a twist connector, what "an insulation equivalent to that of the of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose." would be? And...are twist connectors rated for soldered wires?

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Any idea, besides a twist connector, what "an insulation equivalent to that of the of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose." would be?
    Electrical tape

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    And...are twist connectors rated for soldered wires?
    That's kinda a belt and suspenders thing.
    But, it would be up to the twist connector manufacturer as to if they allow or disallow it.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Electrical tape
    I'm pretty sure electrical tape does not have the "insulation equivalent" to that of Romex.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I'm pretty sure electrical tape does not have the "insulation equivalent" to that of Romex.

    That's an odd thing to say. I have used it on splices up to 15KV. Why wouldn't it work for romex?

    - - - Updated - - -

    These will work.

    http://www.idealindustries.com/produ...r_wrap-cap.jsp

    or electrical tape. I have also used screw on wire splices--it really is only the insulating factor you need since the splice is mechanically and electrically sound.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I'm pretty sure electrical tape does not have the "insulation equivalent" to that of Romex.
    3M™ Economy Vinyl Electrical Tape

    Voltage Raging (UL 510) 600V
    http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...127-9822-7.pdf

    Romex ® SIMpull ®
    Type NM-B
    Voltage rating for NM-B cable is 600 volts.
    http://www.southwire.com/ProductCata...=prodcatsheet6

    Last edited by Rick Cantrell; 10-23-2013 at 07:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    3M™ Economy Vinyl Electrical Tape

    Voltage Raging (UL 510) 600V
    http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...127-9822-7.pdf

    Romex ® SIMpull ®
    Type NM-B
    Voltage rating for NM-B cable is 600 volts.
    http://www.southwire.com/ProductCata...=prodcatsheet6
    Huh, who'd of thunk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    That's an odd thing to say. I have used it on splices up to 15KV. Why wouldn't it work for romex?
    So if electrical tape is rated to 600 volts how do you get by using it on 15000 volt splices?

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    So if electrical tape is rated to 600 volts how do you get by using it on 15000 volt splices?
    600 volts for one layer, and that is also 3M's economy tape.
    Other tapes may have higher voltage rating per layer.
    Or, use several layers of tape.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    600 volts for one layer, and that is also 3M's economy tape.
    Other tapes may have higher voltage rating per layer.
    Or, use several layers of tape.
    I'm not seeing the wrapping technique you've described or the approval of use for any connection over 600 volts.

    Applications


    Electrical insulation for all wire and cable splices rated up to 600 volts and
    80°C (176°F).

    Harnessing of wires and cables
    Installation
    Techniques
    The tape shall be applied in half–lapped layers with sufficient tension to
    produce a uniform wind. Apply the tape with no tension on the last wrap to
    prevent flagging.


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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I'm not seeing the wrapping technique you've described or the approval of use for any connection over 600 volts.
    Scotch® Professional
    Grade Linerless
    Rubber Splicing
    Tape 130C
    High voltage insulating; thermally
    conductive; self fusing. Primary electrical
    insulation for splicing all solid dielectric
    cables through 69 kV.

    There are lots of electrical tapes made for various applications. You have to select the correct one. The half lap tape application is taught by 3M and is a field application technique. Several layers of 600V tape doesn't equal an insulating factor higher than 600V.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I'm not seeing the wrapping technique you've described or the approval of use for any connection over 600 volts.
    Modern "Romex" or NM-B, contains insulated conductors rated at 90C (such as THHN), not just 80C, therefore the product referenced by R.C. and yourself would not meet the requirements of 110.14(B):

    article 110.14(B) in the 2011 NEC states:
    Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing,welding,or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.
    The vast majority of modern residential luminaires contain restriction labeling requiring connection to 90C conductors. Use of your profiled product to insulate splices/connections to same would defeat that requirement as well as 110.14(B).

    The next earlier version of NM contained insulated conductors rated at 75C. Before that, 60C, before that even lower temperatures. Not all tape is equal. "hockey stick tape" is never acceptable either. Loom or loam cotton or synthetic (rayon) is for even older, lower temp limited wiring.

    Correct product, correct application. Sulfered Rubber adhesives and old rubber tape used in OLD K&T, etc. containing rubber insulated tinned copper conductors needed to be tinned ends whether 'twisted' to another conductor or hooked to prevent deterioration/oxidation reaction to the copper due to presence/proximity to sulfered rubber.

    incorrect stripping evidenced by damage (scoring) to solid conductors, damage to insulation, scotching to paper wrap and NM sheath, etc. incorrect sinking, heat damage to conductors, adjacent equip, etc. pictured should be condemmed.


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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Like I said, You have to select the applicable product.

    http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...6EVs6E666666--

    and then it will work.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    An old fart was too cheap to buy wire nuts. I'm sure he'd get a kick out of reading this little discussion.

    Nobody so far is approving anything he did, and we are thankful he didn't tape his work or there would be questions as to what lay beneath the tape. When I see a taped splice, I will call for an electrician to remove the tape and check the splice.

    Do electricians carry tape? Do they use it?

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    "Modern "Romex" or NM-B, contains insulated conductors rated at 90C (such as THHN), not just 80C, therefore the product referenced by R.C. and yourself would not meet the requirements of 110.14(B):"


    This is not true unless you have used the 90C rating to rerate the NM conductor. For most installations you could use 60C insulating devices.


    - - - Updated - - -

    None of the pictures would be a NEC approved installation method. Yes-electricians carry tape and some will use it and actually know how...

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    An old fart was too cheap to buy wire nuts. I'm sure he'd get a kick out of reading this little discussion.
    You are correct. The 90 year old owner recently passed and I was doing a listing inspection for his son.

    And yes, the entire mess got called out...but it really made me wonder about the soldering of the wiring since I had never seen it other than knob and tube. I find this discussion, especially regarding the taping and wire insulation, very interesting. Things I hadn't really thought of before.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Scotch® Professional
    Grade Linerless
    Rubber Splicing
    Tape 130C
    High voltage insulating; thermally
    conductive; self fusing. Primary electrical
    insulation for splicing all solid dielectric
    cables through 69 kV.
    Not exactly "electrical tape" is it?

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Not exactly "electrical tape" is it?

    It is marketed as "tape" and electricians refer to it as tape so it is electrical tape.

    You must not be associated with the electrical industry past or present?? And we already know you are not an English Major...

    Last edited by Roland Miller; 10-25-2013 at 06:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    It is marketed as "tape" and electricians refer to it as tape so it is electrical tape.

    You must not be associated with the electrical industry past or present?? And we already know you are not an English Major...
    If you were to take a look at the manufacturer's catalog there is a section they refer to as "electrical tape". What you claim is "electrical tape" is not listed as such. It's actually listed as a "insulating tape".

    3M Electrical - Electrical Tapes and Mastics - US

    I might not be an English major but I'm not the person claiming insulating tape is the same as electrical tape. It can be dangerous to use generic terms when two totally different products look similar.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    If you were to take a look at the manufacturer's catalog there is a section they refer to as "electrical tape". What you claim is "electrical tape" is not listed as such. It's actually listed as a "insulating tape".

    3M Electrical - Electrical Tapes and Mastics - US

    I might not be an English major but I'm not the person claiming insulating tape is the same as electrical tape. It can be dangerous to use generic terms when two totally different products look similar.

    Really. Being illiterate is definitely dangerous..Anyone that knows what they are doing would know what was being referred to. Which is the noun and which is the adjective? And where would you use these two products? Well, we know you have no electrical background, at least. Gee, everywhere I look on that page there are "tapes". Some are to be used in conjunction with electrical work.

    OBTW--exactly what difference does it make to you or anybody???? Do you write for the news media? Dangerous, my word I am shaking with fear! Get a real job!

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    OBTW--exactly what difference does it make to you or anybody???? Do you write for the news media? Dangerous, my word I am shaking with fear! Get a real job!
    I'm a home inspector. This is a home inspector forum. As a home inspector I'm expected to know different products and their different uses in the construction of houses. You see, I'm the guy who has to explain to the electrician why his vinyl electrical tape application over the 15kv connection is improper and he should have used a rubber insulating tape instead.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    If you were to take a look at the manufacturer's catalog there is a section they refer to as "electrical tape". What you claim is "electrical tape" is not listed as such. It's actually listed as a "insulating tape".

    3M Electrical - Electrical Tapes and Mastics - US

    I might not be an English major but I'm not the person claiming insulating tape is the same as electrical tape. It can be dangerous to use generic terms when two totally different products look similar.
    {sigh} Oh yeah, like your use of "Romex".

    All those "vinyl electrical tapes" from 3M (rm) are LISTED as "insulating tape" under UL Standard 510 with the actual UL. You're playing holier than thou Rowe, and you're so wrong in your non-distinction without a difference claims to Roland Miller, that it is funnier than the Fri Night Commedy Flick on the Dish. You should get the ostich head-in-the-sand photo award of the era from IN.

    Scotch brand (R)-3M "Vinyl Electrical Tape Super 88" is LISTED (w/UL) as an "Insulating Tape" under UL Standard 510.


    You could have six different vinyl "electrical" tapes applied in the field, five of which are entirely inappropriate for the application, and there is NO WAY you Mr. Rowe, H.I. could tell the difference between the six different tapes applied, without a roll core or packaging, without a laboratory full of million dollar equipment and a few individuals at a much higher education, experience and paygrade assisting you.

    They are ALL marketed and some are actually LISTED as Tapes for Electrical

    You seem to be confused thinking only vinyl tape is "electrical" it is not. Oftentimes the ignorant apply an inappropriate vinyl tape directly to a splice or otherwise use without the correct underlying "electrical" tape being installed for the application.

    They are ALL "electrical" tapes. Some are "electrical" mastics. Some "electrical" "tapes" have no adhesive at all. "Tape" does not infer adhesive it is merely a form/shape descriptive. "Electrical" is as to its application/purpose. Not all "electrical tape" is even insulative.."Vinyl" is not a required nor essential componant of an "electrical" "tape".

    Regarding "electrical" tapes and "taping" splices:

    Quote Originally Posted by From Page 2 'Taping tips' of attached article 'Electrical Taping Skills: A Lost Art" from EC&M Jan. 2006

    Taping Tips. The primary tapes used in electrical applications are vinyl, rubber, mastic, and varnished cambric. These products have been used in electrical work for many years, are code approved, and conform to key industry standards, including UL 520, STM D1000, and CSA 22.2 .
    You're petulance shouldn't be rewarded, but others shouldn't be misled or neglected. I have attached an article from a respected trade magazine on the subject. I suggest those interested in the SUBJECT actually READ IT.

    You, Mr. Rowe are completely out-of-line in your comments directed to Roland Miller, and with same have demonstrated tremendous ignorance, outrageous arrogance, and stubborness to the level of proud stupidity. It must be uncomfortable to have your foot in your mouth while your head is up your a$$.


    I recall relaying a story to you a few years ago about A CHILD behaving in such a manner arguing with her betters and elders claiming to the proper name and pronunciation of spagetti was "Bah-skeD-ee". She's matured, LEARNED, etc. since then. Seems you have not.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-25-2013 at 08:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    H.G. Thank you for not contributing anything useful in your last post, as usual. Keep up the great work, insults and arrogance.

    The fact of the matter is, the manufacturer does not call "insulating tape" electrical tape or vice versa. They are two different things with different ratings by the manufacturer.

    Maybe you should try READING the pdf you just posted. It actually describes the difference and describes their different uses.

    Follow up this first step by wrapping four

    half-lapped layers of the rubber insulating

    tape over the cambric tape, which
    creates a moisture barrier and provides

    the primary insulation in the connection.
    Finally, over-wrap the assembly with a
    minimum of two half-lapped layers of
    vinyl electrical tape.
    Do you notice the difference?

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 10-25-2013 at 08:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    H.G. Thank you for not contributing anything useful in your last post, as usual. Keep up the great work, insults and arrogance.

    The fact of the matter is, the manufacturer does not call "insulating tape" electrical tape or vice versa. They are two different things with different ratings by the manufacturer.

    Maybe you should try READING the pdf you just posted. It actually describes the difference and describes their different uses.



    Do you notice the difference?
    Did you notice it is all "tape"? Did you notice it all has insulating properties? Have you noted that you couldn't tell whether the proper "tape" was used in the correct application? Have you noticed that you are missing the point because of your lack of experience? And hopefully you have decided to pass any assessment of "tape" to a qualified electrician.

    Last edited by Roland Miller; 10-29-2013 at 03:52 PM.
    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    H.G. Thank you for not contributing anything useful in your last post, as usual. Keep up the great work, insults and arrogance.

    The fact of the matter is, the manufacturer does not call "insulating tape" electrical tape or vice versa. They are two different things with different ratings by the manufacturer.

    Maybe you should try READING the pdf you just posted. It actually describes the difference and describes their different uses.



    Do you notice the difference?
    You have merely proven:

    You have poor reading skills
    You have below-average comprehension
    You have no knowledge, no experience, not even the remotest CLUE on the subject, and can't be bothered to actually read what you've been provided, let alone what you quote.

    The Standard, the category code, and the listing information for ALL the discussed 3M products are easily found by a 5th grader on the UL websites.

    You're a fool.


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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Did you notice it is all "tape"? Did you notice it all has insulating properties? Have you noted that you couldn't tell whether the proper "tape" was used in the correct application? Have you noticed that you are missing the point because of your lack of experience? And hopefully you have decided to pass any assessment of "tape" to a qualified electrician.
    I've never stated they aren't referred to as tape. I've never stated they don't both have insulating properties. I never stated that I could or could not tell the difference between the two by looking at them. I never claimed to be an electrician.

    What I did state is there is a difference between insulating tape and electrical tape and they can't all be referred to in a general term as "electrical tape". Even the manufacturer does not call them all "electrical tape". That's like a plumber calling CSST "gas pipe". The generic term "gas pipe" can refer to many different materials including copper, black iron, galvanized or CSST. Is it correct to call CSST "gas pipe"? Sure. Is it technically the correct terminology that should be used in an inspection report...NO.

    But, I can see this argument is pointless. You, Roland, as an electrician, keep referring to all tapes as "electrical tape" and as a home inspector, I'll keep referring to them with their proper names so my clients, electricians or electrical engineers I deal with have an idea of what I'm talking about.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    You have merely proven:

    You have poor reading skills
    You have below-average comprehension
    You have no knowledge, no experience, not even the remotest CLUE on the subject, and can't be bothered to actually read what you've been provided, let alone what you quote.

    The Standard, the category code, and the listing information for ALL the discussed 3M products are easily found by a 5th grader on the UL websites.

    You're a fool.
    Actually I think I've proven that when H.G. is shown to be wrong he resorts to name calling and bullying. Sorry, but that has no effect on me.

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 10-29-2013 at 10:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I've never stated they aren't referred to as tape. Really?

    What I did state is there is a difference between insulating tape and electrical tape and they can't all be referred to in a general term as "electrical tape" In your opinion only.

    But, I can see this argument is pointless. You, Roland, as an electrician, keep referring to all tapes as "electrical tape" and as a home inspector, I'll keep referring to them with their proper names so my clients, electricians or electrical engineers I deal with have an idea of what I'm talking about. Your "clients" wouldn't know the difference. And I doubt you have ever used these terms around electricians or electrical engineers because I don't hear any laughing..


    - - - Updated - - -
    You refuse to use the words "electrical tape" but you use the word "romex"? How does anyone you talk to know what you are referring to? WOW!

    I know you are probably doing the best you can with what you have but to not listen to what is being said to you is a problem that will haunt you. Happy Halloween and don't forget your "Insulating" underwear beneath your HI costume..

    Last edited by Roland Miller; 10-30-2013 at 02:54 PM.
    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    What I did state is there is a difference between insulating tape and electrical tape
    That's one of the false swords you've fell upon.In the context of this discussion topic YOU ARE WRONG. You're missing the descriptive adjective sub-categorization word which you conveniently snip off the front "VINYL". They are ALL "ELECTRICAL TAPES" that have been discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    and they can't all be referred to in a general term as "electrical tape".
    They can, are, shall and are referred to as insulating tape, electrical. "Vinyl" electrical tape vs. electrical tape is where you are tripping yourself up. Like your subject title use of "Romex", Romex is a branded trade mark for NonMetallic cable. That may be NM with vinyl jacket or not depending on its vintage, may contain 90C insulated conductors, 75C insulated conductors, 60C insulated conductors or even lower temperature rated insulation for the conductors depending on the vintage, and may or may not contain full size grounded conductor(s) and may or may not contain full-size, smaller size, or NO grounding conductor, depending on the vintage, and unless manufactured by or on behalf of or under the licensing by the company (been at least 2 of them) actually owning the trademark at the time of manufacture, may or may not actually be "Romex(R)" brand NM cable or just non-metallic cable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Even the manufacturer does not call them all "electrical tape".
    You are mistaken, and yes 3M DOES, as does the UL Standard - they are all (the products of discussion) "electrical tape", they are all lListed" as "Insulated Tape" to a STANDARD which is for "electrical" tapes amongst other product forms and are CATEGORIZED under UL's category code system as such. The slip sheet and catalog categorizes them under "electrical tapes & mastics" The product Roland referred to is NOT subcategorized, described, nor sold as "VINYL" electrical tape. The "vinyl electrical tape"s are INDEED listed as "insulating tape, electrical". ALL the products being discussed in this part of the discussion ARE ELECTRICAL (insulating) TAPES" The degree to which and appropriateness of which ARE LIMITED to their application. Some such as Rick's economy tape are merely for bundling, pulling and perhaps vinyl jacket repair in protected location appropriate. Super 88 more appropriate for the uses he suggested inappropriately that the economy be used for (such as to insulate splices of conductors). Not ALL tapes used in electrical applications are electrically insulative. Not all insulation nor all protective materials applied in the field are distributed in the limited descriptive form of "tape".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    That's like a plumber calling CSST "gas pipe". The generic term "gas pipe" can refer to many different materials including copper, black iron, galvanized or CSST. Is it correct to call CSST "gas pipe"? Sure. Is it technically the correct terminology that should be used in an inspection report...NO.
    Fuel gas distribution "piping system" materials are not all individually produced in the technical categorization of actual "pipe", such as copper tube, alluminum tube and CSST, but generically referring to pipe as in a piping system or distribution system IS correct, and those licensed as gas "pipe fitters" MAY install them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    But, I can see this argument is pointless. You, Roland, as an electrician, keep referring to all tapes as "electrical tape" and as a home inspector, I'll keep referring to them with their proper names so my clients, electricians or electrical engineers I deal with have an idea of what I'm talking about.
    I agree it is pointless to continue to provde you with both the resources as well as the information. You do NOT know the subject matter, YOU think YOU are Right, YOU ARE WRONG, and you continue to assert a difference which does not exist, miss the distinction which does exist, ("vinyl") and impose your own incorrect assumptions as fact, even when directed to the truth and the actual sources regarding the standard, the Listing, the category coding, the NEC, and the engineered design, testing, approvals, and manufacturer's literature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe

    Actually I think I've proven that when H.G. is shown to be wrong he resorts to name calling and bullying. Sorry, but that has no effect on me.
    You're the ONLY one wrong Ken. Sadly you can't figure it out (STILL).

    Facial tissue includes Kleenex, but not all facial tissues ARE Kleenex. A Puff's brand facial tissue is still a facial tissue. A Puff's brand facial tissue "with aloe" and other additives to help pamper the dripping nose feel less abrassive to the raw skin is still a facial tissue. Furthermore, Kleenex(R) branded products include more than just facial tissues, dispensing hand towels, napkins, and other products beyond personal tissues and towels are branded "Kleenex(R)".

    The listed tape forms discussed are ALL "electrical tape"s, they are not all "VINYL electrical tape"s. They each have there appropriate uses, and two discussed are commonly inappropriately employed by those who do not know better. You have proven you don't know what nor where the distinctions lay, since you are claiming false assumptions as fact and make a distinction for which there is none (category "electrical tapes", and miss the distinction which does exist in the mfg's table(s) heading(s) e.g. "vinyl" as the limited primary electrically "insulating" material (in addition to forms that are produced in a form not as "tape").

    "Get it? Got it?" (yet!) "Good!"

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-30-2013 at 07:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    You refuse to use the words "electrical tape" but you use the word "romex"? How does anyone you talk to know what you are referring to? WOW!

    I know you are probably doing the best you can with what you have but to not listen to what is being said to you is a problem that will haunt you. Happy Halloween and don't forget your "Insulating" underwear beneath your HI costume..
    I don't refuse to use the term "electrical tape" since there is such a product. But I wouldn't call insulating tape "electrical tape". Just as you, I am sure, wouldn't tell an apprentice electrician to wrap a cable with "electrical tape" when you knew the situation called for insulating tape.

    I see what you're doing now. Since I pointed out that insulating tape and electrical tape are actually different products you're pulling the "Romex" card referring to the title of my thread. Unfortunately for you this was actually Romex, and labelled as such.

    H.G., Like everyone else on here I didn't bother to read your post due to your past past ramblings.

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 10-30-2013 at 11:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Using the term "romex" is like telling the apprentice to use "scotch" to finish his splice....It's a brand name not a cable type.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    OK guys. I think this has gone beyond "Education and information", to arguing.
    There is little, if any, reason to continue.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    OK guys. I think this has gone beyond "Education and information", to arguing.
    There is little, if any, reason to continue.
    You are right! Little is learned when someone has already made up their minds they know everything. Hopefully he is a little curious about what is being said. And I must say, it is a pretty small item in the scheme of things. It is irritating when an unskilled person represents himself as knowing more than he really does especially when a skilled person is on the other end.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    You are right! Little is learned when someone has already made up their minds they know everything.
    I couldn't agree more.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    You should work on it. It is definitely a character flaw for the unskilled like yourself.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    You should work on it. It is definitely a character flaw for the unskilled like yourself.
    What is this "unskilled" you keep throwing at me. Because I'm not an electrician I'm "unskilled". Is that supposed to hurt my feelings, or make me feel inadequate in some way?

    Do you really think I just got out of high school and just started doing home inspections?

    Quick resume:
    10 years full time home inspector, 9 1/2 years ASHI certified
    5 years managing a national home inspection company
    17 years full time carpenter including:
    5 years custom cabinetry and finish carpentry
    4 years multi manufacturer certified window technician investigating deficient installations and production problems
    2 years commercial glazing
    6 years construction foreman from excavation through painting.

    You would think with a resume like that, that I'd know everything. But I don't. It's sad when a person posts a genuine question on this board and it turns into a name calling beat-down.

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 10-31-2013 at 10:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    I apologize, Ken, I was referring to the HI trade. Not to you personally. With that background, I would think you would have been more accepting of what other trades call specific items they use. I know I wouldn't tell a carpenter what I thought he should be naming the items of his trade...

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    I apologize, Ken, I was referring to the HI trade. Not to you personally. With that background, I would think you would have been more accepting of what other trades call specific items they use. I know I wouldn't tell a carpenter what I thought he should be naming the items of his trade...
    Apology accepted.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    See - this is what I miss in LinkedIn groups. Good ole bickering and name calling. Everyone is sooooo polite over there. Keep up the good work.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    OK guys. I think this has gone beyond "Education and information", to arguing.
    There is little, if any, reason to continue.
    As do a lot of threads on this site ...................


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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Just to through a wrench in the works, what about heat shrink tubing? Twist wires lengthwise, slip at least one piece over each soldered spice, then a longer piece over the entire splice and over the ends of the trimmed outer sheath? I've done that many many times but not in residential or commercial wiring. The stuff is tough too.

    There are various thicknesses and grades, 2:1, 3:1, & 4:1 shrink ratios. Adhesive lined, rated at 500V t0 1KV, and operating temperatures form -55C to +90C to +120C. Of course, just a regular wire splice in a covered junction box or 2 would be a lot less expensive and take less time.

    Last edited by Stuart Brooks; 11-03-2013 at 08:17 AM. Reason: Added
    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks View Post
    ... what about heat shrink tubing? ...., rated at 500V t0 1KV, .
    As long as it has insulation values equal or greater than NM then no problem.
    BTW NM insulation is 600V, so the 500V shrink would not be allowed.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    As long as it has insulation values equal or greater than NM then no problem.
    BTW NM insulation is 600V, so the 500V shrink would not be allowed.
    ...{sigh}...


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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    ...{sigh}...
    Wow; thats got to be the shortest posts you have ever made! Congratulations!


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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Wow; thats got to be the shortest posts you have ever made! Congratulations!
    Sometimes saying a little is better than saying a lot.
    I prefer this to a 3 page editorial.
    It tells me, he is exasperated at my simplistic explanation, but doesn't want to say more.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Wow; thats got to be the shortest posts you have ever made! Congratulations!
    Ahh ... I feel like I never left ... what with Watson's posts and all ... (sigh) ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Hey Jerry

    Where have you been? It's been very quiet with out ya. Welcome back.

    Cheers,


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    Default Re: Soldered Romex

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Hey Jerry

    Where have you been? It's been very quiet with out ya. Welcome back.

    Cheers,
    Raymond,

    Thanks, I committed to do too many things at the same time, and all of the things were longer duration than I thought they would be - still working on many of them.

    I think you may find some of the things I'm doing to be helpful to all HIs as well as code inspectors (which is what I have been doing since I retired from home inspections).

    Good to be back, hope I don't bug certain people too much ... would hate to be the one to break up the 'peace and quiet' that has been here.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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