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  1. #66
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Garry, just an FYI, the NEC has dropped the 42 circuit limit for panels. This would only apply if the label allowed more than that and does not apply retroactively to older panels that did and still are restricted to 42 circuits or less.
    Thanks. That is new to me. I once legally installed a panel with 60 spaces, but "X" , ( I forget ), % of the C/Bs were three phase which made it then allowable. No longer in that trade.

    2018 ASHI InspectionWorld

  2. #67
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Nick, I hope the longer this thread goes on the better you feel. There's A LOT of knowledge here and people can't even agree. If you have any further correspondence with the electrician just send him a link to the thread.

    My company gets burned on something like this every so often and there's just nothing you can do. I figure it's the inspection gods getting even with me for all those 4000 sq ft vacant houses with walk-in crawl spaces, an emailed contract and a key under the mat


  3. #68
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship View Post
    Yes, I agree that 4 two pole C/Bs = 4 circuits.
    Huh?

    Garry,

    It seems to me that you are not reading the discussions all the way through or maybe you are just rejecting the specifics being stated so you can state something else, nonetheless, though ... your statement above is certainly not agreeing with anything I said.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #69
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Nick, I hope the longer this thread goes on the better you feel. There's A LOT of knowledge here and people can't even agree. If you have any further correspondence with the electrician just send him a link to the thread.

    My company gets burned on something like this every so often and there's just nothing you can do. I figure it's the inspection gods getting even with me for all those 4000 sq ft vacant houses with walk-in crawl spaces, an emailed contract and a key under the mat
    It does make me feel a little better but I'm ready to just close the book on this and move on. The electrician has my clients convinced I screwed up and I am already committed to reimbursing them for the subpanel. I will probably send the electrician one more e-mail with a pic of the panel I took when I went back to the house and highlight the inconsistencies in his story just so he knows where I'm coming from.

    Last edited by Nick Ostrowski; 02-11-2014 at 09:27 AM.
    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  5. #70
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Keeping View Post
    I Live in Canada we don't allow wire nut splicing in a panel but as for the panel we call 2 wires on one breaker double tapping plus it looks like there 2 spare breakers there so why double tap that Electrican was only looking for work$$$$$. Challenge his call you have the photos.
    Good luck
    Hello Sandy. I am not aware of a rule that prohibits a wire nut (that's a Marr nut, eh?) splice in a breaker panel in my part of Canada. That could be a local rule you have over there.

    If a breaker panel is changed, wire nuts might be the only way to extend the old circuits.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  6. #71
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    It does make me feel a little better but I'm ready to just close the book on this and move on. The electrician has my clients convinced I screwed up and I am already committed to reimbursing them for the subpanel. I will probably send the electrician one more e-mail with a pic of the panel I took when I went back to the house and highlight the inconsistencies in his story just so he knows where I'm coming from.
    I do not know how you could have done any better on this inspection. I'm impressed that you are not blindly driven w/ Y chromosone vengenge / never wrong / polarized / scorched earth thinking. IMHO, you did it all right, including biting on the bullet and moving on.


  7. #72
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Hello Sandy. I am not aware of a rule that prohibits a wire nut (that's a Marr nut, eh?) splice in a breaker panel in my part of Canada. That could be a local rule you have over there.

    If a breaker panel is changed, wire nuts might be the only way to extend the old circuits.
    We have to use JBs to extend a circuit with approved covers and they can't be covered in walls we have our own code laws Canadian Electrical Code and that differs from province to province a bit.


  8. #73
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    I sent the electrician one last e-mail regarding this issue with pics of the service panel from the original inspection and the one I took at the house this past Saturday. I mentioned various inconsistencies between what he told me vs. what I saw in the panel and how I am having a hard time believing that identifying this issue was the slam dunk he made it out to be due to these inconsistencies. That tweaked his nerves a bit and he has asked me a couple times now if I did the calculations to know if it was OK to have splices in the panel. He did not explain what he means by this but I assume it to mean that he's talking about the cross sectional area percentages. As I see it, the interior of this panel was no where near the fill capacity limits as stated by the code. Since he is the electrician and professional, I was hoping to learn something from this and come away with a more detailed approach to inspecting service panels and I have in some ways. I definitely need to pay better attention to the number of conductors under screws on the bus bars and spliced connections will get a more critical look. But this has again confirmed my opinion that all you need is to have the wrong person get the ear of your client for your entire inspection fee or more to go out the window.

    I am not claiming zero culpability but if somebody is going to state I missed blatant fire hazards, wanting concrete confirmation is not asking too much. Thus far, I have gotten none.

    Oh well. Check is in the mail to the client and I am moving on from this. I did let the client know on Saturday that if any other issues crop up relative to my home inspection that they feel I should have caught, they should contact me before having any work done as this situation nullified the contract we have/had.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  9. #74
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    [QUOTE=Nick Ostrowski;237723]. That tweaked his nerves a bit and he has asked me a couple times now if I did the calculations to know if it was OK to have splices in the panel.

    Trust me; he did not do the calculations either. This is a rabbitt hole that I have never seen pursued. The volume of any enclosure is simple math. NEC Article 314 has charts for determining how much volume must be assigned to each conductor. I have seen inspectors insist an enclosure is too full, but neither the inspector nor the contractor will attempt to prove the right or wrong of that with calculations. It is easily enough remedied w/ either an extention or replaced w/ a larger enclosure. In the case of a panel what "volume" do you assign to the "guts", wire-nuts, C/B terminations, etc. There are no definitive numbers available, so it is always a judgement call. Turn that calculations challenge of his around and ask him to forward the calcs he did to determine panel overfill. That is why I mentioned earlier that the practical side of "conductor fill", is can you visably trace each wire ? Mind you this is all light years beyond a Home Inspection scope. I once did a High School feld lighting project w/ wood poles. Several poles were 5' higher than specified. The design engineer wanted them either cut or for me to demonstrate wind shear clacs proving the xtra 5' would be OK. I told him to plug another 5' into his design calcs and demonstrate to the school district it was a problem. He dropped the issue.


  10. #75
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship View Post
    Trust me; he did not do the calculations either. This is a rabbitt hole that I have never seen pursued. The volume of any enclosure is simple math. NEC Article 314 has charts for determining how much volume must be assigned to each conductor. I have seen inspectors insist an enclosure is too full, but neither the inspector nor the contractor will attempt to prove the right or wrong of that with calculations. It is easily enough remedied w/ either an extention or replaced w/ a larger enclosure. In the case of a panel what "volume" do you assign to the "guts", wire-nuts, C/B terminations, etc. There are no definitive numbers available, so it is always a judgement call. Turn that calculations challenge of his around and ask him to forward the calcs he did to determine panel overfill.
    It really is an easy job ... for the code inspector. All the code inspector has to do is ask for the calculations for fill because it looks like the conductors are crowded in there.
    - 312.7 Space in Enclosures.
    - - Cabinets and cutout boxes shall have sufficient space to accommodate all conductors installed in them without crowding.

    I agree with you on the calculation part, though:
    - 312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
    - - Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.

    One would have to determine the "wiring space" at any cross section, then do the calculations.

    - 312.11 Spacing. - - The spacing within cabinets and cutout boxes shall comply with 312.11(A) through (D).
    - - - (A) General. Spacing within cabinets and cutout boxes shall be sufficient to provide ample room for the distribution of wires and cables placed in them and for a separation between metal parts of devices and apparatus mounted within them in accordance with (A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).
    - - - - (1) Base. Other than at points of support, there shall be an airspace of at least 1.59 mm (0.0625 in.) between the base of the device and the wall of any metal cabinet or cutout box in which the device is mounted.
    - - - - (2) Doors. There shall be an airspace of at least 25.4 mm (1.00 in.) between any live metal part, including live metal parts of enclosed fuses, and the door.
    Exception: Where the door is lined with an approved insulating material or is of a thickness of metal not less than 2.36 mm (0.093 in.) uncoated, the airspace shall not be less than 12.7 mm (0.500 in.).
    - - - - (3) Live Parts. There shall be an airspace of at least 12.7 mm (0.500 in.) between the walls, back, gutter partition, if of metal, or door of any cabinet or cutout box and the nearest exposed current-carrying part of devices mounted within the cabinet where the voltage does not exceed 250. This spacing shall be increased to at least 25.4 mm (1.00 in.) for voltages of 251 to 600, nominal.
    - - - - - Exception: Where the conditions in 312.11(A)(2), Exception, are met, the airspace for nominal voltages from 251 to 600 shall be permitted to be not less than 12.7 mm (0.500 in.).
    - - - (B) Switch Clearance. Cabinets and cutout boxes shall be deep enough to allow the closing of the doors when 30-ampere branch-circuit panelboard switches are in any position, when combination cutout switches are in any position, or when other single-throw switches are opened as far as their construction permits.
    - - - (C) Wiring Space. Cabinets and cutout boxes that contain devices or apparatus connected within the cabinet or box to more than eight conductors, including those of branch circuits, meter loops, feeder circuits, power circuits, and similar circuits, but not including the supply circuit or a continuation thereof, shall have back-wiring spaces or one or more side-wiring spaces, side gutters, or wiring compartments.
    - - - (D) Wiring Space Enclosure. Side-wiring spaces, side gutters, or side-wiring compartments of cabinets and cutout boxes shall be made tight enclosures by means of covers, barriers, or partitions extending from the bases of the devices contained in the cabinet, to the door, frame, or sides of the cabinet.
    - - - - Exception: Side-wiring spaces, side gutters, and side-wiring compartments of cabinets shall not be required to be made tight enclosures where those side spaces contain only conductors that enter the cabinet directly opposite to the devices where they terminate.
    - - - - Partially enclosed back-wiring spaces shall be provided with covers to complete the enclosure. Wiring spaces that are required by 312.11(C) and are exposed when doors are open shall be provided with covers to complete the enclosure. Where adequate space is provided for feed-through conductors and for splices as required in 312.8, additional barriers shall not be required.

    "shall be sufficient to provide ample room" - now that is really helpful

    However, let's jump back a couple of sections:
    - 312.6 Deflection of Conductors.
    - - Conductors at terminals or conductors entering or leaving cabinets or cutout boxes and the like shall comply with 312.6(A) through (C).
    - - - Exception: Wire-bending space in enclosures for motor controllers with provisions for one or two wires per terminal shall comply with 430.10(B).
    - - (A) Width of Wiring Gutters. Conductors shall not be deflected within a cabinet or cutout box unless a gutter having a width in accordance with Table 312.6(A) is provided. Conductors in parallel in accordance with 310.4 shall be judged on the basis of the number of conductors in parallel.
    - - Table 312.6(A) Minimum Wire-Bending Space at Terminals and Minimum Width of Wiring Gutters
    .
    - - (B) Wire-Bending Space at Terminals. Wire-bending space at each terminal shall be provided in accordance with 312.6(B)(1) or (B)(2).
    - - - (1) Conductors Not Entering or Leaving Opposite Wall. Table 312.6(A) shall apply where the conductor does not enter or leave the enclosure through the wall opposite its terminal.
    - - - (2) Conductors Entering or Leaving Opposite Wall. Table 312.6(B) shall apply where the conductor does enter or leave the enclosure through the wall opposite its terminal.
    - - - - Exception No. 1: Where the distance between the wall and its terminal is in accordance with Table 312.6(A), a conductor shall be permitted to enter or leave an enclosure through the wall opposite its terminal, provided the conductor enters or leaves the enclosure where the gutter joins an adjacent gutter that has a width that conforms to Table 312.6(B) for the conductor.
    - - - - Exception No. 2: A conductor not larger than 350 kcmil shall be permitted to enter or leave an enclosure containing only a meter socket(s) through the wall opposite its terminal, provided the distance between the terminal and the opposite wall is not less than that specified in Table 312.6(A) and the terminal is a lay-in type, where the terminal is either of the following:
    - - - - (a) Directed toward the opening in the enclosure and within a 45 degree angle of directly facing the enclosure wall
    - - - - (b) Directly facing the enclosure wall and offset not greater than 50 percent of the bending space specified in Table 312.6(A)
    - - - - - FPN: Offset is the distance measured along the enclosure wall from the axis of the centerline of the terminal to a line passing through the center of the opening in the enclosure.
    - - - Table 312.6(B) Minimum Wire-Bending Space at Terminals


    .
    - - (C) Conductors 4 AWG or Larger. Installation shall comply with 300.4(G).
    - - - (this is the part requiring bushings for 4 AWG and larger)

    All you have to do here is use the two tables ... wait ... for conductors sized "1410" the wire bending space is listed as "Not specified", and that is the size conductors which take up much of the space.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #76
    Mbrooke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    It does make me feel a little better but I'm ready to just close the book on this and move on. The electrician has my clients convinced I screwed up and I am already committed to reimbursing them for the subpanel. I will probably send the electrician one more e-mail with a pic of the panel I took when I went back to the house and highlight the inconsistencies in his story just so he knows where I'm coming from.
    I have an idea. If you would like you can post over on Mike Holt, they will allow you to since you are an HI. These guys are geniuses and know exactly is right, wrong and controversial. If it goes well you can send the link over to the electrician. Its just a suggestion, but I would not let an ignorant electrician take advantage of me.


    Arm yourself with knowledge, even if you have to hide your resources, you will win.


  12. #77
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    I'm done with this. Clients are convinced I was wrong and their check is in the mail. Time to move on.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  13. #78
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    I'm done with this. Clients are convinced I was wrong and their check is in the mail. Time to move on.
    ........had a similar issue with a roof a few years ago. Sometimes the cost to be correct is just too high - I think you did the right thing..........Greg


  14. #79
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Correct, you are not correct.

    To keep it simple, let us use a 8 circuit panel. Maximum number of circuits is 8 - agreed?

    If you install 8 single pole breakers you can get your 8 circuits listed as the maximum, agreed?

    If you install 4 double pole breakers for 240 volt circuits - no multiwire circuits - (those 4 double pole breakers take up those 8 circuit spaces) then you have 4 circuits, agreed?

    For each 240 volt double pole breaker installed you lose 1 circuit, agreed?

    Now multiply that up based on the number of circuits/breaker spaces in a larger panel. The answer is going to be the same (unless and until you start trying to fill in spaces allowed for tandem or quad breakers, but even with quad double poles the ratio would remain unchanged).
    We do not count "circuits", we count over-current "devices". In applying the "rules" we count each (switched/overcurrent protected) POLE as a device, not individual molded case circuit breakers nor number of circuits (so MWBCs, 120V vs. 120/240 or 240V is irrelevant to the 120/240V typical split single-phase residential service) as a "device".

    Thus a 120/240V single phase 30/40 service panel may have up to 40 pole "switches" (overcurrent "devices"), of which at most 10 are half-size and only when those half-size (tandem, duplex, minis, etc.) are located where indicated in the wiring diagram "when used as service equipment". Modern equipment self-limiting (CTL) as to the number of poles can unsafely and illegally be defeated by the use of obsolete style (non-CTL) devices (commonly labeled "for replacement use only" or similar), and in some cases field modification (such as nipping out or bending a seating foot on the breaker, etc.).

    I am curious about the neutral splices (indicated conductors, i.e. white insulated) which are wire-nutted, and specifically one in particular which appears to have three conductors, if this was actually to/from an AFCI or a GFCI improperly installed (i.e. nutting the returns to the pigtail and not landing the grounded conductor on the indicated breaker terminal and the pigtail from the breaker to the neutral (grounded) bus. I couldn't follow all the conductors origins and termination points in the photograph(s). If not wired correctly - now that would be a hazard, not only defeating the combined function of the combination breaker - but depending on the circumstances of the installation errors and conditions might have indeed been a potential fire hazard, esp. if indeed the CTL panel was overridden with replacement use only breakers to expand a 30/40 to 42 poles.

    I agree with Jim Port regarding the likely cause of tripping associated with vacuuming, and if all was indeed as it should have been with the home wiring, and the specific circuit was not overburdened a possibly that the vacuum cleaner itself may have had an "issue", even if only evidencing itself intermittantly (esp. after a move). One of the more frequent complaints dealt with from new occupants/purchasers during the "honeymoon" period regarding same often involved their computer station placement, laser printers, battery back-up/surger protectors, game systems, and location of signal boosters and wireless gateway placement, and that being signifantly differently configured from the usage/staging from the sellers experiences and choices. (for example media in the teen's bedroom where the former family had an infant bedded, and therefore had none, etc.) then someone vacuuming with extra attention to detail (such as spring/fall cleaning, just before guests are expected, after redecorating/new furniture placement, a messy DIY project, moving in or out a live xmas tree, post-party clean-up, etc.).

    Then someone plugging in the "straw that broke the camels back", in this case the vacuum, and powering it up. Inverse time - few minutes or less and pop, in the dark. Seems they now have more than just a sub-panel, they now have divided circuits where they were formerly combined as one.

    I wouldn't be surprised if this was occuring on 15 amp circuits using a powerful "12 amp" vacuum with multiple motors engaged (i.e. power foot/carpet mode), the original panel appears to have 42 poles, and if so, was likely "overfilled", i.e. in conflict with the labeled limitations as per its manufacture date and vintage of its listing. I note a significant number of single pole circuits in the "sub" panel, and is somewhat suggestive of the possibility that a number of branch circuits were not only moved but were likely "split up", i.e. what was previously powered as a single circuit is now two, three, or more circuits.



    As far as demand/design loads ("overloaded") Home Inspection does not include "load calculations".

    If the new home owner had other devices in use or connected to the same circuit (combined trickle voltage, power supplies - other such inductive loads and/or significant resisitive loads, such as lighting, etc.) and that 12 amp vacuum was starting up or being strained (such as a piece of yarn being caught up on the power foot roller, a clog, a full dust bag or dust cup, dirty filter, etc.) it wouldn't surprize me that a CB could have quite properly opened the circuit, working properly and PREVENTING a fire - not risking or causing one, although a vacuum may have a light, indicators, etc. it is a multi-motor variable controller inductive combined load.

    Sometimes (hopefully, most times) a circuit breaker tripping is a life and property preservation event, not a cause or risk of peril event. It usually is an event which has a real actual trigger. Most-times "nusicance (sp)" tripping is not nusciance but an actual event (even if the "electrician" can't figure out the source or determine the exact combination of events which reproduce identically. A loose or high resistant connection at a receptacle outlet, a worn out spring blade, an appliance (vacuum) problem - wiring, etc.) are all possibilities.


    Sometimes breakers themselves "go bad". Frequent exposure to tripping events or adverse conditions can "age" the breaker. Sometimes breakers, esp. combination devices, can get "trippy" after frequent exposures.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 02-19-2014 at 09:28 AM.

  15. #80
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    We do not count "circuits", we count over-current "devices".
    http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/interne...oardsP1-P5.pdf

    "42-Circuit Rule:"

    "Use two or more panelboards with feed-thru or subfeed lugs when:1. Lighting and appliance panelboards are required with more than 42 circuits in areas where the zone code has not been accepted.
    2. More circuit mounting space is required than is provided in the largest box size."

    http://www.cooperindustries.com/cont..._1160_QSCP.pdf

    "Branch Circuit Positions:
    18, 30 and 42"

    "Average QSCP Weights (NEMA1)*
    18 circuit: 80 lbs
    32 circuit: 100 lbs
    40 circuit: 110 lbs"

    http://static.schneider-electric.us/...1600HO0803.pdf

    "66, 72 and 84 circuit panelboards are now available for areas of the
    country that have adopted the 2008 National Electrical Code (NEC).
    A change in the 2008 NEC eliminates the 42-circuit limit for lighting
    panelboards. Our NQ panelboards are now available with six interior
    circuit counts 18, 30, 42, 54, 72 and 84. NF panelboards are
    available with six interior circuit counts 18, 30, 42, 54, 66 and 84.
    This means contractors will no longer have to use two-section panels
    when more than 42 circuits are required."

    "Our 66, 72 and 84 circuit panelboards offer a simple, yet highly-
    flexible solution for meeting a wide range of your electrical lighting
    and distribution project needs."

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #81
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    sorry guys, two pages, wow! Two questions: Why is there a green wire nut on the neutral? 2nd. question: How many times can circuit breaker trip, before it has to be replace?


  17. #82
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Mattison View Post
    sorry guys, two pages, wow! Two questions: Why is there a green wire nut on the neutral? 2nd. question: How many times can circuit breaker trip, before it has to be replace?
    The wire nut is green because it was what was available at the time of need - - - it's a wire nut and the color typically, ( red, yellow, gray, blue, orange, etc. ). does not mean anything other than possibly size. Admittedly; green would be best for ground wires, but not aware of any code mandate that green wire nuts can only be used on ground wires. As to the tripping C/B, it can trip as many times as the resident is willing to set it. No specific number of resets is data represented that I know of.


  18. #83
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship View Post
    The wire nut is green because it was what was available at the time of need - - - it's a wire nut and the color typically, ( red, yellow, gray, blue, orange, etc. ). does not mean anything other than possibly size. Admittedly; green would be best for ground wires, but not aware of any code mandate that green wire nuts can only be used on ground wires. As to the tripping C/B, it can trip as many times as the resident is willing to set it. No specific number of resets is data represented that I know of.
    Thanks for the information.

    There is another question: Nick Ostrowsk on 02/08/2014 at 9:40 a.m. posted a picture
    of a panel without a main disconnect. And where the neutrals/grounds connected
    I thought I saw a green bonding screw. Why would someone leave this?

    Just a man to trying to understand.


  19. #84
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Mattison View Post
    Thanks for the information.

    There is another question: Nick Ostrowsk on 02/08/2014 at 9:40 a.m. posted a picture
    of a panel without a main disconnect. And where the neutrals/grounds connected
    I thought I saw a green bonding screw. Why would someone leave this?

    Just a man to trying to understand.
    Not enough info. to be accurate, but guesses are: It is a split buss panel w/ more than one main disconnect ~ the screw may not be actually bonding the can to the neutral ~ the bonding screw should not be there. If I said redundant bonding / connection of the neutral and ground was unimportant I would be both incorrect and the site gurus would have me for lunch. However; additional or down-stream bonding of neutral / ground is a safety proto-call, ( insurance if you will ), and not an immediate life threatening hazard. In fairly rare circumstances it could become a life safety hazard, so it is not code compliant.


  20. #85
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Mattison View Post
    Thanks for the information.

    There is another question: Nick Ostrowsk on 02/08/2014 at 9:40 a.m. posted a picture
    of a panel without a main disconnect. And where the neutrals/grounds connected
    I thought I saw a green bonding screw. Why would someone leave this?

    Just a man to trying to understand.
    It would help if the pic in question were in the post for direct reference. However if I am looking at the correct panel the bond screw is not installed fully, but inserted where it would be installed. The neutrals are separate from the grounds.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  21. #86
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    Default Re: Electricians Terminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    It would help if the pic in question were in the post for direct reference. However if I am looking at the correct panel the bond screw is not installed fully, but inserted where it would be installed. The neutrals are separate from the grounds.
    Yes, thank you for your reply. I just thought it was odd, that some one would this green bonding
    screw in this panel at that location. And not remove it, and leave it on the inside bottom of this
    panel.




    Just a man trying to understand.


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