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  1. #1

    Default Main Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    I did an inspection today and the house had to main panels on either side of the meter base. Each panel main rating was 125 amps but the main breakers in each panel was 200 amps. It is original construction within the last 15 years. I am writing up as the main breaker is oversized for the panel rating and referring to electrical contractor. Haven't come across this before so just wanted to get some opinions.
    Thanks.

    Last edited by Phillip Joyner, Jr.; 03-04-2014 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Typo
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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Joyner, Jr. View Post
    Each panel main rating was 125 amps but the main breakers in each panel was 200 amps.
    Do you have a photo of the label showing the 125 amp rating?

    I am writing up as the main breaker is oversized for the panel rating and referring to electrical contractor.
    If you have a photo, post it here for us to double check for you, and if you are correct, then why r'refer to electrical contractor', just write it up as needing to be corrected and state the reason, include the photo in your report. Photos are worth more than a thousand words as long as the photos show what you writing up - pretty hard for a contractor to state you are wrong when everyone can see that you are right.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    photo of panel rating

    - - - Updated - - -

    I meant, refer the repair/correction to an electrical contractor

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Joyner, Jr. View Post
    photo of panel rating

    - - - Updated - - -

    I meant, refer the repair/correction to an electrical contractor

    And I meant using the word "refer" is unnecessary and seems to imply that you are "referring it out" instead of just stating "have it corrected", which is why home inspectors should not "refer to", just write it up as "needs to be corrected/repaired/replaced" and then you can add "by licensed and qualified contractor at each one, or, include a section in your report which states what each category means, and corrected, repaired, replaced mean by a licensed and qualified contractor. That way you put that in your report once in one place near the beginning and you don't have to write it at each item.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Any pic of the main?


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Okay,

    Since a residence is only allowed to have one main service panel (without permission by the AHJ), why didn't you write that up?

    Is it possible you were looking at a main disconnect in front f the main service panel? Just curious. Pictures would really help.


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker


  8. #8

    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    There were two panels on either side of the meter base. the one on the left with 200 amp main breaker supplied the two HVAC units and the detached storage building. The one on the right had one 200 amp main breaker and fed to the distribution panel inside.
    P2270051 (800x533).jpg

    - - - Updated - - -

    P2270033 (800x533).jpg


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    Okay,

    Since a residence is only allowed to have one main service panel (without permission by the AHJ) ...
    Huh?

    Donald,

    Do you have a code section on that, thanks.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Joyner, Jr. View Post
    There were two panels on either side of the meter base. the one on the left with 200 amp main breaker supplied the two HVAC units and the detached storage building. The one on the right had one 200 amp main breaker and fed to the distribution panel inside.
    P2270051 (800x533).jpg

    - - - Updated - - -

    P2270033 (800x533).jpg

    From the design of those panels they look like 200 amp panels. 100 amp QO panels have a much shorter neutral buss the the gutter space up top is half of these. Not the case here. I dont think a 200amp main could even physically fit into a 100amp QO.

    I will look at the label but that is odd.


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Huh?

    Donald,

    Do you have a code section on that, thanks.
    Jerry -NEC 2011 - 230.2 number of services per building (with respect to a single family dwelling) and by extension NEC 2011 - 230.71 (A).

    One service allowed, one main disconnecting means (up 6 switches ). If the main service disconnecting means is the Main Service Panel, therefore, only one "Main Service Panelboard"


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    Okay,

    Since a residence is only allowed to have one main service panel (without permission by the AHJ), why didn't you write that up?

    Is it possible you were looking at a main disconnect in front f the main service panel? Just curious. Pictures would really help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Huh?

    Donald,

    Do you have a code section on that, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    Jerry -NEC 2011 - 230.2 number of services per building (with respect to a single family dwelling) and by extension NEC 2011 - 230.71 (A).

    One service allowed, one main disconnecting means (up 6 switches ). If the main service disconnecting means is the Main Service Panel, therefore, only one "Main Service Panelboard"
    Donald,

    You stated only one main service panel, which is what I asked about, then you posted the code for only one service, which is not what I asked about - would you post the limitation for only one main service pannel.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Donald,

    You stated only one main service panel, which is what I asked about, then you posted the code for only one service, which is not what I asked about - would you post the limitation for only one main service pannel.
    Jerry - I'm not going to get into a debate over common sense.

    Tell you what, you show me where the code allows multiple service entries and main service
    panels, without having to have the permission of the AHJ, for a single family dwelling.

    I know I can have more than one entry and panel, providing I have permission to do so.


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    Jerry - I'm not going to get into a debate over common sense.

    Tell you what, you show me where the code allows multiple service entries and main service
    panels, without having to have the permission of the AHJ, for a single family dwelling.

    I know I can have more than one entry and panel, providing I have permission to do so.
    Donald,

    You sure are touchy about me pointing out that YOU said main service panels and that first YOU tried to change that from panels to services when asked for that code section and now you are trying to change what you said to services AND panels.

    YOU really need to concentrate on what you are referring to because there is a big difference between services and panels.

    I'm not the one who stated

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Donald,

    You sure are touchy about me pointing out that YOU said main service panels and that first YOU tried to change that from panels to services when asked for that code section and now you are trying to change what you said to services AND panels.

    YOU really need to concentrate on what you are referring to because there is a big difference between services and panels.

    I'm not the one who stated
    OK Jerry, I'm touchy, I agree. Can you show me in the code where "Multiple Main Service Panels" are allowed for a "Single Family Residential dwelling" without the permission of the AHJ.

    Don


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    OK Jerry, I'm touchy, I agree. Can you show me in the code where "Multiple Main Service Panels" are allowed for a "Single Family Residential dwelling" without the permission of the AHJ.

    Don
    If one reads the definition for a service, I don't know anyone that would consider that installation to be multiple services.


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Richter View Post
    If one reads the definition for a service, I don't know anyone that would consider that installation to be multiple services.
    Until I got areal close look at the panels in the pics, I was just asking a question. Now that I've looked at an exploded view of the pics, it appears as if the panelboard on the right of the meter is being used as a disconnect switch and nothing else. There are no branch circuit breakers in the enclosure. There appears to be feeders from the bottom of the busses to the interior of the home. (bottom right of the enclosure.) Don


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    OK Jerry, I'm touchy, I agree. Can you show me in the code where "Multiple Main Service Panels" are allowed for a "Single Family Residential dwelling" without the permission of the AHJ.

    Don
    Don,

    I'm out camping and don't have my codes with me, however, I can give you guidance as to where to find it and which all here (or at least most here) will know and understand:
    - a) How many disconnects are allowed at each service?
    - - maximum of six (with limited exceptions)
    - b) Where are the disconnects required to be located in relation to each other?
    - - grouped together (with limited exceptions)

    How many separate enclosures (panels) with one main disconnect in each are allowed to be grouped together at one service?
    - six

    How often would you likely find the above on a residence?
    - rarely

    How often could one expect to find two separate enclosures with one main disconnect in each at a residential service?
    - quite often

    If you haven't found the code by the time I get back, I'll post them for you. But ... I'm sure you will have found and posted those code sections in no time.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Don,

    I'm out camping and don't have my codes with me, however, I can give you guidance as to where to find it and which all here (or at least most here) will know and understand:
    - a) How many disconnects are allowed at each service?
    - - maximum of six (with limited exceptions)
    - b) Where are the disconnects required to be located in relation to each other?
    - - grouped together (with limited exceptions)

    How many separate enclosures (panels) with one main disconnect in each are allowed to be grouped together at one service?
    - six

    How often would you likely find the above on a residence?
    - rarely

    How often could one expect to find two separate enclosures with one main disconnect in each at a residential service?
    - quite often

    If you haven't found the code by the time I get back, I'll post them for you. But ... I'm sure you will have found and posted those code sections in no time.
    Camping? I understand all of the above. Most of that information is in Article 230 Part VI. I will accept I am inferring that since there can be only one service, there can only be one main service panelboard "MCB" or "MLO" with up to six switches to kill the panelboard.

    On a seriously large lakeside estate I worked there multiple "service" panelboards being used, not to be confused with secondary downsteam panelboards, and we had to get special permission to install those extra service panels. That is all I am saying. It is outside of the norm and needed the permission of the AHJ and Fire Marshall.


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    230.71(A) allows up to 6 main disconnects in separate enclosures. Thus you can up to 6 main service disconnects. Those 2 panels are using the rule in 230.71(A) allowing the mains in separate enclosures and grouped close together.
    Maybe it was the Local Jurisdiction that required you to have the "special permission" ??


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by jack davenport View Post
    230.71(A) allows up to 6 main disconnects in separate enclosures. Thus you can up to 6 main service disconnects. Those 2 panels are using the rule in 230.71(A) allowing the mains in separate enclosures and grouped close together.
    Maybe it was the Local Jurisdiction that required you to have the "special permission" ??
    I think I have dropped into the, "Twilight Zone".

    My assumption - This is a single family residence, is that correct?

    If it is, then looking at "Panel A", to the right of the meter. All that is in this panel is a MCB and a feed into the building, correct? Panel "B" is fed off of the meter, correct?

    Effectively, Pane "A" is nothing more than a disconnect switch.

    I know that I can have up to six disconnects grouped together for a multifamily residence, but that does not apply here.

    This is single family residence with only one service so I can provide emergency cut off protection in two ways, (1) main disconnect switch. If I use a main disconnect switch then the panelboard is treated as a secondary distribution panelboard and not a Main Service Panelboard. (2) Main Service Panel either configured a MCB panelboard or a MLO panelboard with up to six switches to cut power to the remainder of the panelboard.

    Last edited by Donald Farrell; 03-02-2014 at 11:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    Camping?
    Yes, but probably not the type you are thinking of.

    We "take the condo with us type - 36 foot motorhome.

    It is outside of the norm and needed the permission of the AHJ and Fire Marshall.
    It is not outside the norm. In many places, and no permission from anyone is needed or required as it is in the code and is no different than installing a 200 amp service instead of installing a 150 amp service.

    I will have to look closer at the photo in the original post, but my recollection is that it is one service with one meter with two main service disconnects with each in its own enclosure.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I will have to look closer at the photo in the original post, but my recollection is that it is one service with one meter with two main service disconnects with each in its own enclosure.
    I looked at the photos (albeit not in the original post, but provided by the original poster in a later post) and what I see is a meter in the center in its own enclosure with two main service disconnects - one to the right of the meter in its own enclosure and one to the left of the meter in its own enclosure, with PVC conduit going from the meter enclosure to each main service disconnect panel enclosures.

    From the information provided, nothing wrong with that setup regarding the two main disconnects in separate enclosures.

    HOWEVER, from the information provided to us, the panel main ratings are less than the main disconnect ratings - THAT is a problem which needs to be addressed and corrected.

    It would be beneficial if the manufacturers would make a rejection feature in each size breaker which would allow it to be installed on panelboards with a main rating equal to or greater than the breaker, but would reject the breaker from being installed on a panelboard which had a main rating of less than the breaker.

    Of course, though, that would require a lot of retooling by the manufacturers ... albeit no more than was done with CTL panelboards, and it would help keep people from installing oversized (higher amp rated) mains on panelboards which have a lower main rating.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    The Square D panels use a common mount for the main breakers regardless of the ampacity on their disconnects. I suspect the same here.

    Except for the incorrect OCPD size I don't see any issue as shown.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    I can understand the discussion about having a 200 amp breaker placed inside of a cabinet designed for 125 amps and the potential impact.
    It appears that both panels are supplied with 3 wires coming from the meter box.
    Here is where I could use a greater understanding. The box on the left supplies two HVAC units and a remote storage shed. This box appears to have the neutral and ground bonded inside the panel.
    The box on the right has four wires supplying the panel that is inside the home. In this panel the neutral and ground do not appear to be bonded.
    What I don't see in either panel is the earth ground or ufer ground or any kind of wire that disappears below the surface of the earth. My question is why don't we see this ground wire?

    Tim Fuller
    Fuller Home Inspection

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    Cool Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Fuller View Post
    I can understand the discussion about having a 200 amp breaker placed inside of a cabinet designed for 125 amps and the potential impact.
    It appears that both panels are supplied with 3 wires coming from the meter box.
    Here is where I could use a greater understanding. The box on the left supplies two HVAC units and a remote storage shed. This box appears to have the neutral and ground bonded inside the panel.
    The box on the right has four wires supplying the panel that is inside the home. In this panel the neutral and ground do not appear to be bonded.
    What I don't see in either panel is the earth ground or ufer ground or any kind of wire that disappears below the surface of the earth. My question is why don't we see this ground wire?
    Tim, you are correct. There does appear to be a GEC exiting the bottom of the meter cab but code requires a gec to be run to the neutral buss of all main disconnect enclosures. These GEC's may be sized to the conductor size feeding each individual panel and tapped to a 'main' GEC sized to the service as a whole.

    I've installed more than a few of these QO NEMA 3R panels, and the pics sure look like 150 or 200 amp factory assembly. ??
    No mention yet of the feed-thru lugs. Some panels have these lugs protected by the main overcurrent device. If this panel had not been so, then the panel inside the home would be another main panel -not grouped and therefore a code violation. Just something to be aware of.


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Fuller View Post
    It appears that both panels are supplied with 3 wires coming from the meter box.
    Correct, two hot phase legs and one grounded neutral (grounded at the meter can as that does not look like a bypass meter can).

    Here is where I could use a greater understanding. The box on the left supplies two HVAC units and a remote storage shed. This box appears to have the neutral and ground bonded inside the panel.
    From zooming in on the service equipment panels it looks like the left one does not have the bonding screw installed (looks like an open hole more than it does a green bonding screw head).

    Additionally, the left one that feeds the remote storage shed only has the two hot phase conductors and insulated neutral, but I do not see a grounding conductor going into the raceway in the bottom with the other conductors to the remote shed.

    Also, the neutral conductor looks to be black with yellow stripes instead of black with white stripes. As I recall, the conductors I've seen which were black with yellow stripes were suitable only for use as service entrance conductors (these conductors to the remote shed are feeder conductors) and are not approved for use within a structure (this end is not "in" the structure, but the other end at the remote storage shed may be "in" that structure. The reason they are not permitted "in" the structure is that those conductors do not have the same fire-resistance rating as the regular conductors, they are intended for direct burial in earth where fire-resistance is not a consideration.

    The box on the right has four wires supplying the panel that is inside the home. In this panel the neutral and ground do not appear to be bonded.
    Correct, however, the service entrance conductors from the meter to the service equipment on the right also looks to be missing the bonding screw - again, looks like an open screw hole.

    If the bonding screws are not installed, then the missing grounding conductor in the left service equipment panel and its feeders to the remote shed does not affect the grounding as there would not be a connection anyway - but do not take that as me saying it is okay to not have the grounding conductor to the remote shed, just install the bonding screw. However, the bonding screw missing in the right service equipment panel breaks the connection between the grounded service conductor and the grounding feeder conductor - again, the fix is to install the bonding screw.

    What I don't see in either panel is the earth ground or ufer ground or any kind of wire that disappears below the surface of the earth. My question is why don't we see this ground wire?
    I see what may be the grounding electrode conductor exiting the meter can and partially visible at the left side of that black vent.

    The photo cuts off the bottom of the service equipment panel on the left, those conduits going into the ground should be sealed.

    I don't see a ground from the phone company box at the right which goes to the grounding electrode conductor.

    On another note, as I recall, that gas regulator should be 3 feet from the electrical equipment as they are ignition sources, however, it may also need to be 3 feet from the window above it too.

    Neither service equipment enclosure looks very well secured to the wall.

    That should do for starters.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Jerry

    (Left Cab)

    I see the three conductor feed into the panel. The CB on the right side has two black conductors, it appears to me, that the black/yellow conductor is an insulated ground conductor for that branch because it looks like the two blacks and the black/yellow exit the panel through a bottom knockout.

    Personally, I would have wire tied the branch circuit conductors together and used red tape to retask the white conductors off breakers on the left side of the panel as ungrounded conductors, but that's just me. Anyway, I do not see any conductors connected to the Neutral terminal buss, so it appears to me that it is a straight 240 volt feed w/ground to the shed. Since the shed is not shown, I'm wondering if the shed uses 120/240 and if so, without a Neutral are they using a 120 phase to ground connection.

    Just to toss in another (albeit minor) issue, neither outside cabinet is labeled, isn't that also a requirement?

    I'd check the code book, but that's in a different room and 'm still stuck on bed rest because of minor knee surgery. To be honest I was less miserable before the surgery!!!!

    I do apologize for being such a "PIA" on this thread, it's because of the drugs

    Last edited by Donald Farrell; 03-04-2014 at 06:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    Just to toss in another (albeit minor) issue, neither outside cabinet is labeled, isn't that also a requirement?
    Yes, they should be labeled "A", "B", or some other way to designate which main goes where, such as the left main service disconnect could be "A" and the remote shed panel (if there is a panel there) would also be labeled "Panel A", while the right service disconnect could be "B" and the panel inside the house would also be labeled "Panel B".

    On a dwelling unit that is about all one typically sees. In a commercial installation the main will also typically be labeled with the location of the panel if is feeding, and the panel will also typically be labeled with the location of the main.

    I'd check the code book, but that's in a different room and 'm still stuck on bed rest because of minor knee surgery. To be honest I was less miserable before the surgery!!!!
    I know several people who have had knee surgery and knee replacements, they all say the same thing ... until sometime later when they realize 'Wait, I just realized my knee doesn't hurt anymore.' ... that is when it becomes worth having the operation.

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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Okay, I must be really drugged this morning. I just looked at both the left and right cabinets using Photoshop Elements and an app. called Faststone. Both apps let me look at the jpegs in zoomed images.

    I just do not see any "Grounding Electrode" conductors in either cabinet. In the panel on the right I see a stranded bare AL "EGC bolted to the cabinet and entering the residence, but no Grounding Electrode.

    In the cabinet on the right I see three EGCs connected to the ground terminal buss, but again nothing that appears to b a Grounding Electrode.

    I wondering, could it be that the electrician that set this system up used the POCO supplied ground for the meter and case as the grounding electrode? Which of course makes no sense because the panel cabinets seem to be connected to the meter cabinet via PVC.

    It must be me!


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    I wondering, could it be that the electrician that set this system up used the POCO supplied ground for the meter and case as the grounding electrode? Which of course makes no sense because the panel cabinets seem to be connected to the meter cabinet via PVC.
    That is what the electrician did, however, there would not be any problem as long as the neutral is bonded to the enclosure at each service equipment panel - and to me it looks like the bonding screws were not installed (looks like black holes for the green bonding screws).

    Some power companies INSIST (all caps for that reason ) that the grounding electrode conductor be installed to the meter can grounding terminal, most power companies don't care where the grounding electrode conductor is terminated (meter can or service equipment), and because the NEC says at the service equipment most inspectors want to see it at the service equipment, also, when terminated at the meter can the termination is no longer accessible as it is supposed to be.

    I have seen some combination meter/service equipment enclosure which, in the top meter section, has a label which states that the grounding electrode conductor "SHALL BE TERMINATED AT" and then specifies a terminal in the meter can on the neutral bus bar where the neutral terminal is located - technically, if the GEC is not terminated in THAT specific terminal, then the enclosure is not installed in accordance with its listing and labeling as required by 110.3(B).

    I have had electrician demand that they be allowed to terminate in the meter enclosure because "that is how it is always done" and "that is what the power company insists on", and when I talk with the power company people who arrive to reconnect the power they say "What? We don't care where it is terminated, you can have him terminate it in the service equipment, we do not have a problem with that" - and the electrical contractor is standing there growling and turning red because they just contradicted what he had been screaming and demanding. All I could do is smile and turn to the electrical contractor and say "See, they do not have a problem with terminating it in the service equipment, so terminate it in the service equipment".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  32. #32

    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    just thought i would add another photo. The inside data plate on the enclosures stated Type 1 but the door date plate stated Type 3R is that normal?

    P2270054 (800x533).jpg


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Joyner, Jr. View Post
    just thought i would add another photo. The inside data plate on the enclosures stated Type 1 but the door date plate stated Type 3R is that normal?

    P2270054 (800x533).jpg
    That photo appears to show the GEC exiting the meter can which would be compliant. As stated before both disconnects should be bonded to the neutral buss. Additionally the feeder leaving the bottom of the left disco should be four wires. I also do not like the grounding lug on the right disco. Personally, I would have used an approved add-a-lug connected to the neutral buss to connect the EGC from the SER.

    Do you have any photos clear enough to see any bonding screws?


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Joyner, Jr. View Post
    just thought i would add another photo. The inside data plate on the enclosures stated Type 1 but the door date plate stated Type 3R is that normal?
    If the enclosure stated it was a Type 1, then it should not be installed outdoors.
    - http://www.nema.org/Products/Documen...sure-types.pdf

    Not sure exactly what the differences between a Type 1 cabinet and a Type 3R cabinet are other than I know the door is different - but I do not know if a Type 3R door on a Type 1 cabinet makes a Type 3R enclosure - anyone know?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If the enclosure stated it was a Type 1, then it should not be installed outdoors.
    - http://www.nema.org/Products/Documen...sure-types.pdf

    Not sure exactly what the differences between a Type 1 cabinet and a Type 3R cabinet are other than I know the door is different - but I do not know if a Type 3R door on a Type 1 cabinet makes a Type 3R enclosure - anyone know?
    Not sure if you are referring to the door or the arc shield. A 3R enclosure is arranged to be rain tight as you know. On those cabinets the doors usually swing closed and slide up to latch, positioning the door under the lip of the enclosure top.


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Richter View Post
    Not sure if you are referring to the door or the arc shield.
    Brad,

    The arc shield (deadfront cover) would be, could be, the same for Type 1 or Type 3R if the deadfront cover has been tested for corrosion resistance (i.e., the protection of the interior live parts from outside damage and the protection of persons from the live parts would be the same), what I am pondering is Phillips question below:
    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Joyner, Jr. View Post
    just thought i would add another photo. The inside data plate on the enclosures stated Type 1 but the door date plate stated Type 3R is that normal?
    Phillip stated that the inside data plate on the enclosure (I am thinking that is the cabinet) stated it was a Type 1, but the data plate on the door stated it was a Type 3R. To be used outdoors it would need to be at least a 3R (a 3 would be even better, but not required for most locations). Thus my pondering as to whether the cabinet itself for a Type 1 is different than the cabinet itself for a Type 3R ... both have various openings, and my recollection of a Type 1 does not recall any openings where they should not be for a Type 3R ... but ... there could be additional openings not as well closed on a Type 1 where they might not be allowed on a Type 3R - I just don't recall what the allowances/differences are for the cabinets themselves.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Brad,

    The arc shield (deadfront cover) would be, could be, the same for Type 1 or Type 3R if the deadfront cover has been tested for corrosion resistance (i.e., the protection of the interior live parts from outside damage and the protection of persons from the live parts would be the same), what I am pondering is Phillips question below:


    Phillip stated that the inside data plate on the enclosure (I am thinking that is the cabinet) stated it was a Type 1, but the data plate on the door stated it was a Type 3R. To be used outdoors it would need to be at least a 3R (a 3 would be even better, but not required for most locations). Thus my pondering as to whether the cabinet itself for a Type 1 is different than the cabinet itself for a Type 3R ... both have various openings, and my recollection of a Type 1 does not recall any openings where they should not be for a Type 3R ... but ... there could be additional openings not as well closed on a Type 1 where they might not be allowed on a Type 3R - I just don't recall what the allowances/differences are for the cabinets themselves.
    IMO there is some mislabeling somewhere. Those enclosure are definitely 3R enclosures. See the hub closure cap on top? I am also of the opinion that they are 200amp load centers. My experience tells me that a125 amp enclosure would not be as large as those in the photos, smaller wire bending space, smaller lugs etc.

    Type 1 enclosures generally have ko's on the top. Entries to the top of a 3R enclosures reqire the use of a hub or a Myers hub to prevent water entry.

    Last edited by Brad Richter; 03-04-2014 at 09:09 AM.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Joyner, Jr. View Post
    just thought i would add another photo. The inside data plate on the enclosures stated Type 1 but the door date plate stated Type 3R is that normal?

    P2270054 (800x533).jpg
    Philip,

    I'm curious, did you happen to inspect the shed for any 120 branch circuits because I seethe 240 volt breaker a black & white (used as a Hot) conductors. What do not see is a Neutral conductor going to the shed


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    Philip,

    I'm curious, did you happen to inspect the shed for any 120 branch circuits because I seethe 240 volt breaker a black & white (used as a Hot) conductors. What do not see is a Neutral conductor going to the shed
    The feeder going to the shed is URD. The black with yellow stripe is commonly used as the neutral.


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Richter View Post
    Type 1 enclosures generally have ko's on the top. Entries to the top of a 3R enclosures reqire the use of a hub or a Myers hub to prevent water entry.
    Aha! I knew I was forgetting something - those knockouts on the top of Type 1 enclosures!

    Phillip,

    Was the label with the Type 1 enclosure stated on it on the deadfront covers or on the side of the cabinets? If on the deadfront covers then maybe the deadfront covers were changed?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aha! I knew I was forgetting something - those knockouts on the top of Type 1 enclosures!
    I said generally because panelboard tubs(bolt on breaker) are manufactured with no ko's. We get to punch those out as needed.


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Richter View Post
    The feeder going to the shed is URD. The black with yellow stripe is commonly used as the neutral.
    (I have added bold for highlighting)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Also, the neutral conductor looks to be black with yellow stripes instead of black with white stripes. As I recall, the conductors I've seen which were black with yellow stripes were suitable only for use as service entrance conductors (these conductors to the remote shed are feeder conductors) and are not approved for use within a structure (this end is not "in" the structure, but the other end at the remote storage shed may be "in" that structure. The reason they are not permitted "in" the structure is that those conductors do not have the same fire-resistance rating as the regular conductors, they are intended for direct burial in earth where fire-resistance is not a consideration.
    Phillip, do the conductors to the shed go "into" the shed or is there is disconnect "on" the outside of the shed?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  43. #43

    Default Re: Main Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    The first pic that I posted showing 125 amp mains also shows the Type 1 enclosure and that data label was on the inside side of the panel box.
    The client did not want/need the storage building inspected so it was noted as not inspected and I did not inspect that panel.

    did anyone notice my forum title was "Pain Panel" not "Main Panel" lol it can be a pain too


  44. #44
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    Default Re: Main Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Joyner, Jr. View Post
    did anyone notice my forum title was "Pain Panel" not "Main Panel" lol it can be a pain too
    Yes I did, but I did not think it would foretell the thread the way it has proven to have done.

    With that label on the inside the panel enclosure cabinet, then things definitely are mis-labeled, but I would not count that as meaning those are 200 amp rated panels, only that the cabinet is not a Type 1.

    Someone at the factory must have been having a bad day that day ... wonder what else they touched and messed up that day?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  45. #45
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    Default Re: Main Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Joyner, Jr. View Post
    The first pic that I posted showing 125 amp mains also shows the Type 1 enclosure and that data label was on the inside side of the panel box.
    The client did not want/need the storage building inspected so it was noted as not inspected and I did not inspect that panel.

    did anyone notice my forum title was "Pain Panel" not "Main Panel" lol it can be a pain too
    Yes, I did notice.


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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Richter View Post
    The feeder going to the shed is URD. The black with yellow stripe is commonly used as the neutral.
    Brad,

    While the Black/Yellow conductor may normally be associated with "Neutral", the post it is "Mechanically" connected to appears to be the Ground post

    If not, then Neutral and Ground are sharing the same mechanical connection. A I looking at this incorrectly?

    Phil: Do you have the model number of this panelboard so I can pull the specs?


  47. #47
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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    While the Black/Yellow conductor may normally be associated with "Neutral", the post it is "Mechanically" connected to appears to be the Ground post

    If not, then Neutral and Ground are sharing the same mechanical connection. A I looking at this incorrectly?
    Because the feeder to the remote shed are only three wire, not four wire with a separate ground as is required ... since 2005 as I recall - that looks to be newer than 2005, but they may still be on the 2002 NEC, which, of course, does not matter in the scheme of things for safety, only matter is whether or not it "passed inspection" at the time to the OLD recognized standard.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  48. #48
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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    Brad,

    While the Black/Yellow conductor may normally be associated with "Neutral", the post it is "Mechanically" connected to appears to be the Ground post

    If not, then Neutral and Ground are sharing the same mechanical connection. A I looking at this incorrectly?

    Phil: Do you have the model number of this panelboard so I can pull the specs?
    I believe they are connected. I could be mistaken. Makes no sense to me otherwise.


  49. #49
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    Default Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Farrell View Post
    Brad,

    While the Black/Yellow conductor may normally be associated with "Neutral", the post it is "Mechanically" connected to appears to be the Ground post

    If not, then Neutral and Ground are sharing the same mechanical connection. A I looking at this incorrectly?

    Phil: Do you have the model number of this panelboard so I can pull the specs?
    QO1816M200FTRB. FWIW, further perusal of the SQ D catalog finds that there is no way 125 amp and200 amp main breakers are interchangeable. The frame sizes are totally different. See SQ D PDF page 9.


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    Red face Re: Pain Panel Rating and Main Breaker

    I would like to thank everyone for the gracious and informative replies. You allowed me to go and do a bit more reading to further increase my knowledge. If I was there I would have stuck my meter across a few of these terminals and boxes to check for voltage and/or continuity.
    I have a meeting Saturday with a very good source that is quite knowledgeable about Square D products. If I can get further accurate information about this installation I will post it.

    Tim Fuller
    Fuller Home Inspection

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