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  1. #1
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    Default FPE Panels News Story

    Inspection Referral
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    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Got to love the Memphis electrical inspector that says there is nothing wrong with them.


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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    "We have discovered a specific brand of circuit breakers and panels has a history of failure and... of house fires!"

    Golly! Such dedication! Such amazing work! 30 years of investigation!

    The news media has outdone themselves.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    That is really amusing. That is a 35 year old story, and they still got it wrong.

    I fail to understand the tripping issue demonstrated with the electrical panels . The 30 amp in the new box tripped but, the two pole Federal Pacific 60 amp did not trip when loaded to 43 amps. This is clear proof that a 60 amp FP circuit breaker is defective ?
    Do you even read whats posted before you post misinformation?

    * on it's you Jim.
    **never mind

    quote taken from article.
    "He purposely overloaded a 30-amp double-pole breaker with 43 amps of power from four space heaters"

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    Got to love the Memphis electrical inspector that says there is nothing wrong with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    "We have discovered a specific brand of circuit breakers and panels has a history of failure and... of house fires!"

    Golly! Such dedication! Such amazing work! 30 years of investigation!

    The news media has outdone themselves.
    Jack hit it on the head Gun man,

    But da Spector say's it probably be alright.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    I ran into an electrician doing some work at a Fannie/Freddie foreclosure last week and he told me some banks won't lend on Fed Pac, Zinsco or Pushmatic panels. I meant to look into it further but haven't had time. Has anyone heard anything about this?

    The Pushmatic thing really surprised me as I've never seen them thrown into the same category as the other two. I know Pushmatics are old and somewhat hard to find parts for but I've never known them to be hazards.


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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    ... some banks won't lend on Fed Pac, Zinsco or Pushmatic panels.
    I have heard similar about FPE and Zinsco. I realize that it is better to replace, but is it the lender's job to enforce that? I have a problem with banks dictating what components can and cannot be in a structure they lend on.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    I ran into an electrician doing some work at a Fannie/Freddie foreclosure last week and he told me some banks won't lend on Fed Pac, Zinsco or Pushmatic panels.
    He got it half right and his brain created the rest.
    Insurance companies refuse coverage, and the people can't get their bank loan without the insurance.
    It's easy to imagine a clueless agent or two confusing Pushmatics with the others, but I doubt that it would be a general rule. Most people wouldn't know a Pushmatic if the little Bulldog jumped out and bit them.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Like most news reporting or news stories that are run they use bogus data to make a point. Specifically the correlation of fires starting at the circuit panel and Fed Pac panel, where the panel in the fire could not be determined. Maybe its reverse logic, you can't prove they were not all Fed Pac so they all must have been Fed Pac. Right..All panel fires are the result of Fed Pac Panels, film at 11.


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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    ... where the panel in the fire could not be determined.
    Unless the interior all melted down, and I doubt that the steel did as the enclosures were still there in the video, the FPE has a unique bus and breaker connection and I would think that the panels could be determined as to whether they were, or were not, FPE ... if the fire investigator knew what they were looking at ... not saying that you could do that will all panels, but FPE and Zinsco should be able to be identified after a fire.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Jerry,
    You would think that a little study and forensic research would yield the manufacture, yet from my research there does not seem to be any published interest in that determination. What type and manufacture does not appear in fire data. Panel was cause, end of interest. But maybe it is in the secret data that is not available to the public.


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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Garry,

    The unfortunate thing is, even with the fire officials I've talked with, unless there was an explosion (gas) or something equally clear as to the cause of the fire (smoking in bed if the bed is the point of origin, lightning, etc.) the fires are deemed, by default, "cause: electrical in nature" because 'buildings don't just burn down by themselves'.

    Of course, though, it is a bit embarrassing when the cause of the fire is declared "electrical in nature" and then it is discovered that the building has not had electricity to it for the past few months or years ... oops!

    That has happened a few time recently in Orlando with the news reporting that the fire department stated the cause was electrical in nature and then the next evenings news is ... oops ... the fire department found out that the electrical had been disconnected last year ... vagrants must have caused the fire ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    I have heard similar about FPE and Zinsco. I realize that it is better to replace, but is it the lender's job to enforce that? I have a problem with banks dictating what components can and cannot be in a structure they lend on.
    I agree to a point but........................

    I am with all lenders, especially lending other peoples money, insisting on every single home being inspected bfore lending other peoples money out on any home.

    If there is s known fire hazard from a panel or faulty wiring of any kind in a home there should be a strong denial of funds for anyone buying a home unless it is either repaired before the note is signed or arrangement made and money set aside at closing to have the repairs made.

    Same goes with leaking roofs or what ever. Most conventional loans do not require a home inspection at all. On a rare occasion a conventional loan requires a termite inspection but practically never. A VA loan requires a WDI on almost any home but maybe not a home inspection. FHA used to but now the home has to have a couple decades on it depending on the type of loan just for a WDI and they may not require a home inspection.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Billy - Look at the video . It is a 60 amp FP
    Jim,

    There are several breakers in the panel, an Electrician is standing there running this Test, the attached articular states this is a 30 amp breaker but you can determine at a glance from several States away it's all wrong.

    Good Job Buddy!

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    In regards to the 60 amp breaker they show in the video it was off anyway so I must assume that was just a video clip of the breaker and not the actual breaker being tested.

    Don Hester
    NCW Home Inspections, LLC
    Wa. St. Licensed H I #647, WSDA #80050, http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    From the story:
    "It is very hard to believe there were that many defective breakers found," said Shelby County Electrical Code Board Chairman Jay Weatherington, a 60-year master electrician and owner of A/C Electric Co. in Memphis.

    In six decades of servicing Mid-South homes, Weatherington said he's never experienced a problem with FPE breakers or panels.


    This is something that I have occasionally run into with electricians, plumbers, etc. Guys that know their applicable codes very well but are ignorant of what is going on in their industry. They don't have any curiosity about their business. They don't read their industry newsletters and apparently, don't bother to discuss "business" with each other.

    As HIs, these situations can lead to spending some extra time on an inspection as you butt heads with some curmudgeon tradesman. I recently spent some extra time assembling evidence (complete with illustrations) of why I was correct and the licensed old electrician was wrong. Funny that I call the guy "old" when he and I are probably the same age.

    BTW, Mr. Weatherington looks pretty good for a guy cruisin' upwards of 80, but probably time to let some other guy more attune to the industry take over. One can only imagine what his blood pressure might spike to, if some mere home inspector tried to bring him up to speed.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hester View Post
    In regards to the 60 amp breaker they show in the video it was off anyway so I must assume that was just a video clip of the breaker and not the actual breaker being tested.
    This issue/problem will never go away. There are electricians who disagree, fire investigators who disagree, code authority (AHJ) who disagree. Electrical unions also do not agree and make it a point to state that FP panels are just fine, after all they are 50 plus years old. Some home inspectors follow this line also. I believe that once an insurance company takes the side that they will not insure an FP equipped property should say it all.


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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Lon - Or is it that the HI has the wrong information?

    Maybe the electrician is correct.
    If you are referring to the electrician that I butted heads with, there is zero possibility that he was correct. (The AHJ quiped that the guy is an "idiot" when I relayed my story)

    If you are proposing that Mr. Weatherington could be correct that he has never found a problem with a FPE panel then.......Sure......that's possible. In all the FPE panels that I've seen, I've only confirmed one breaker that was failing to trip, but since I don't check breakers for performance, it's amazing that I've found even one bad breaker. (Inquiring minds are wondering how I found this bad FPE breaker. The Cliff Notes version is that it was a breaker for the furnace and when I tried to run the furnace, I discovered that a nasty short would not trip the breaker)

    But if you are inferring that since Mr. Weatherington has not found a defective FPE panel or breaker, then there is not a problem with FPE panels; then I completely reject that conclusion based on the over-whelming preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Ted - All the lenders require is Insurance to cover the investment .Having banks involved with inspections is not appropriate and will just drive up the cost of home buying.
    Insurance Companies sometimes will require inspections prior to providing Insurance. This is probably a better option, as the number of claims will be reduced with proper inspections and Insurance costs will be reduced.
    FYI - Beware of doing Insurance Company inspections without having an appropriate subrogation release from the Insurance Company. This can put you out of business in a hurry.
    Which is why I stated that "I" think all homes should be inspected before a lender puts any signature to a note. If I had many millions of dollars and had some of your money and Jerrys money or anyone elses money to lend I would insist the home be inspected by a home inspector. I would want to make sure the investment was a good investment. I am not sure why anyone would find that so strange.

    Protect you party you are lending the money to by having a home inspection. An Insurance company is not doing a home inspection. As a matter a fact I have been in many a home where the insurance company is out and they never get on a ladder to look at the roof. I have never and will never see an insurance company open an electric panel. Or test to see if a TPR valve works or even if the flue on a heating system actually makes it out the roof etc etc etc.

    All homes should be inspected. By a home inspector. Before anyone gets a dime of annyones money.

    "Having banks involved with inspections is not appropriate and will just drive up the cost of home buying."

    Really. No leaks into an attic and the roof rotting out. No 2 inches of water i a crawl space rotting the underside of the home out. No flue pipes disconnected and 2 inches away from the underside of the roof sheathing. ,No water heaters about to but open. No gas lines leakng into the home. No leaking windows rotting a wall out. All of these items can have a tremendous adverse affect on someone being able to continue paying a note or for that matter is if the home is lost the tens and tens of thousands of dollars needed for repair from neglect from the borrowing party or the previous owner.

    Lenders not being involved is foolish at best. This kind of sounds like all thre excuses Realtors use to and still use. It will cost them a deal. The seller has no money for repairs and that peskky inspector found multiple thousands of repairs needed.

    Lenders involved requesting a full home inspection. They should all insist. Then the insurance companies look at the inspection and determine if they are going to insure it. Who cares how involved they get. "Drive up the cost of home buying"????? Rot, conducive conditions, fire safety, etc etc etc.

    No, it wont drive up the cost of buying a home. It will drive the seller to get there home in shape if they want to make any money off of it or at least break even. If the home is not worth it then the home is not worth it. An Inspection does not drive up the cost of home buying and a lender insisting on a home inspection does not drive up the cost of home buying.

    Where did you get that kind of information. Are you a Realtor?


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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Jim, Have you ever seen how videos, news article etc... are done? They have many shots they use that may not even be part of the actual event but look good on the video.

    My point is we did not have enough video information to know what breaker they tested and must go by what was written. They stated that they tested a 30amp breaker and it did not trip. That all we really have to go off of.

    A 60 amp breaker that was tripped for the video does not prove or disprove anything. You are assuming to make a point that is not valid with what we have there.

    Don Hester
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    What is the over-whelming preponderance of evidence to the contrary? This is a very controversial subject.
    Try Googling "Federal Pacific" or "FPE" and try to find that statistic that FPE panels are not the problem.

    How could any HI be serving the best interests of his/her client by saying, "Well, no problem here" as he/she walks away from a FPE panel?

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    How could any HI be serving the best interests of his/her client by saying, "Well, no problem here" as he/she walks away from a FPE panel?
    I don't like your Attitude Lon.

    *this isn't about anything but Jim being correct and everyone else wrong.
    ** just read some of his other "contributions" posted here for the benefit of the Great Unlearned.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    My FP story: Persons present at the inspection: Realtor, Buyer, buyers Sister, Sisters 3 or 4 kids, myself.

    I refuse to remove FP covers, so hit the breakers and buss bar with IR thermometer looking for hot spots. One breaker was 12 or 15 degrees higher than the rest. I shut the main off and went looking for the realtor. I told her to gather the family, take them to Dairy Queen and buy ice cream until I show up. I wrap things up and go to DQ to tell them what happened. Fast forward a month to a 1st time homebuyer class I was involved with. Aforementioned buyer was there and said they were moving in next week. Realtor had an electrician in the day after the inspection. He said the FP panel was hours away from starting a fire. Sellers replaced it - done deal.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post


    Again the question is -What is the over-whelming preponderance of evidence to the contrary?
    I've led you to the water. If you don't want to drink, then so be it. But seriously, if you can't even see the water, then I don't know what else to do for you.

    The case against FPE panels is well documented for those who want to read it. If you don't want to do the research for yourself, then maybe this isn't the business for you. After 16 years in this business, I still spend more hours than I probably want to know, researching and updating myself. I'm two thirds of the way through Hansen's book on electrical inspections. He devotes a large section to FPE panels.

    Oh, and BTW, where's your "statistic" showing that FPE panels aren't the problem?

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    *this isn't about anything but Jim being correct and everyone else wrong.
    ** just read some of his other "contributions" posted here for the benefit of the Great Unlearned.
    Billy,

    You have just described the actions of the Troll here.

    Please ... don't feed the bears, lions, alligators, or The Troll. It is not that The Troll is to be feared, it is only that The Troll leaves its droppings and carp all over this forum.

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  26. #26
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Again the question is -What is the over-whelming preponderance of evidence to the contrary?
    Jim,

    Not quite sure what you are saying. Is it that FPE is not a problem or do you simply want documentation?

    I have a document from Wright Malta that shows failure rates of FPE breakers. This was apparently provided to the CPSC during their investigation of FPE breaker failure way back in the 80s. I have had it for years, so I don't know where I originally got it and have been unable to locate it online.

    InspectAPedia has a more recent summary of testing that includes the Wright Malta study along with others. They have other documentation, including allegations of fraud against FPE regarding their testing procedures.

    Douglas Hansen has also been a big advocate of FPE replacement. Granted, Doug does not represent a recognized testing lab, but he is generally regarded as knowledgeable, particularly in the field of electrical.

    http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE-Haz...sed-070525.pdf
    http://codecheck.com/cc/ccimages/PDFs/FPE_2012.pdf

    FPE 1.PDF
    FPE 2.PDF
    FPE for inspectors.pdf

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  27. #27
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    I just looked at the CPSC site for FPE breakers. It's been a while since I last looked and they have made some changes. Pretty interesting reading. It actually mentions home inspectors and real estate agents.

    Commission Closes Investigation Of FPE Circuit Breakers And Provides Safety Information For Consumers | CPSC.gov

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  28. #28
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Lon - I have worked with FP Stab lok breakers for nearly 45 years and know a little about them.I have read almost everything written about them. I have been involved in testing buildings with these components. BTW - everything you read is not necessarily true.

    How about this for a statistic - There are 300,000,000 of these components currently in service in the USA that average 35 years old.
    Just because you've dress yourself for x years does not make you a Tailor and we've seen your reading skills on display.

    http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Hazards_121220.pdf

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  29. #29
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Billy - The CPSC does not agree with Jesse Aronstein and they are the authority that makes the decision.
    Prove it.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Prove it.
    All this proves is "The Commission" didn't have the monies in the budget.
    *you really need to work on those so called Reading Skills.

    taken from your link:

    The Commission staff estimates that it would cost several million dollars to gather the data necessary to assess fully whether those circuit breakers that are installed in homes but which may fail UL calibration tests present a risk to the public. Based on the Commission's limited budget ($34 million for fiscal year 1983), the known hazards the Commission has identified and must address (involving products of other manufacturers) and the uncertainty of the results of such a costly investigation, the Commission has decided not to commit further resources to its investigation of FPE's circuit breakers. However, despite its decision to close this particular investigation, the Commission will continue its investigation of circuit breakers generally. The Commission can reopen its investigation of FPE circuit breakers if further information warrants.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Notexactly an endorsement or approval.
    Fromthe CPSC


    Thepress release announces that the Commission closed the matter withoutmaking a determination as to the safety of FPE circuit breakers orthe accuracy of the manufacturer’s position on the matter.


    TheCommission staff believes that it currently has insufficient data toaccept or refute Reliance's position.


    TheCommission staff estimates that it would cost several million dollarsto gather the data necessary to assess fully ….theresults of such a costly investigation, the Commission has decidednot to commit further resources to its investigation of FPE's circuitbreakers.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    At the risk of tossing more food to the Troll ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    How about this for a statistic - There are 300,000,000 of these components currently in service in the USA that average 35 years old.
    "average 35 years old"

    2014
    - 35
    1979

    So the average age is 35 years, they stopped making them when, around 1990 give or take, so there are 150,000,000 million of them made between 1979 and and 1990 (give or take a couple of years) ... ?

    I find that math doesn't quite compute ...

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post

    Billy - You seem to have missed this part.


    "
    While the Commission is concerned about the failure of these FPE breakers to meet UL calibration requirements, the Commission is unable at this time to link these failures to the development of a hazardous situation."


    the main issue Jesse Aronstein claimed that the breakers did not trip @ 135% of load . Yes, they do not meet UL Calibration but that does not create a hazard. In testing results it appears that all breakers tripped before they reached hazardous levels, ( except those that had been abused.)
    In order to start a electric fire a minimum of 300 % overload is the minimum required to produce adequate heat for ignition. See below:

    From INTERFIRE-
    It is easy to start fires by creating a gross overload in an electric cable. But the circumstances required for it do not tend to correspond to ways by which electric wiring fires normally start. The smallest power cords or extension cords in general use in the US are 18 AWG, and these are rated for 10 A. Experimental studies on the gross-overload ignition mode are meager, but they indicate that currents 3 – 7 times the rated load are needed for ignition [ [25] ][ [26] ][ [27] ]. Since branch circuits are normally protected by 15 or 20 A circuit breakers or fuses, a gross overload must be considered a rare cause of fires in branch-circuit wiring
    .Dr V Babrauskas at the 7th international Fire & Materials
    conference, 2001, San Francisco, USA,
    It's the Panel and Breakers not the Branch Wiring, Genius.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post


    In order to start a electric fire a minimum of 300 % overload is the minimum required to produce adequate heat for ignition.
    conference, 2001, San Francisco, USA,
    Jim
    I think it was you that stated you tested a MWBC and caused the insulation to degrade by overloading the neutral by 200%.
    Now it looks as though you accept that it takes overloads of 300%

    Also
    You test Smoke Alarms with smoke because of safety concerns, however, you say there is nothing to be concerned about with FPE panels.
    You say a sidewalk is needed from the rear door to the street (again for safety) , but FPE panels pose no dangers and are acceptable.
    To me, it doesn't seem as though you are consistent in your opinions.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    @Rick Cantrell -" Notexactly an endorsement or approval.
    Fromthe CPSC "

    This is a controversial subject .It is not straight forward.

    Thats true
    No matter what, when talking about FPE, it is mostly opinion.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Jim
    I think it was you that stated you tested a MWBC and caused the insulation to degrade by overloading the neutral by 200%.
    Now it looks as though you accept that it takes overloads of 300%

    Also
    You test Smoke Alarms with smoke because of safety concerns, however, you say there is nothing to be concerned about with FPE panels.
    You say a sidewalk is needed from the rear door to the street (again for safety) , but FPE panels pose no dangers and are acceptable.
    To me, it doesn't seem as though you are consistent in your opinions.
    Do you doubt that his intent is to be a Troll and stir things up and not add anything to the knowledge base here?

    Almost regardless of what is posted by whom ... Jim is going to pick the opposite and argue it ,,, even when it causes him to argue both sides against himself.

    Isn't that basically what a Troll does and what they intend?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Lon - I have worked with FP Stab lok breakers for nearly 45 years and know a little about them.I have read almost everything written about them. I have been involved in testing buildings with these components. BTW - everything you read is not necessarily true.

    How about this for a statistic - There are 300,000,000 of these components currently in service in the USA that average 35 years old.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Billy - The CPSC does not agree with Jesse Aronstein and they are the authority that makes the decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Billy - Your lesson for today is to understand why CPSC was involved. The issue is failing to meet UL calibration Standards.
    Again with the miss direct. The subject is not testing requirements or if some Agency wants a larger budget to "Investigate"

    It's about Fires and the loss of Life and Property.

    *your lesson is I've archived your Statements.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Billy - How many fires are caused by FP breakers v other breakers ?
    Well now Jim,
    Those are the kind of questions your Defense Attorney should ( will ) be asking.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Billy - How many fires are caused by FP breakers v other breakers ?

    I do not have a clue, can you tell us?

    I'm sure all breakers have some bad apples in their barrels but FPE seems to have more bad than good from my experience.

    But I find it difficult to dispute this from Douglas Hansen: http://www.codecheck.com/cc/ccimages/PDFs/FPE_2012.pdf

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    @ Jerry Peck - "So the average age is 35 years, they stopped making them when, around 1990 give or take, so there are 150,000,000 million of them made between 1979 and and 1990 (give or take a couple of years) ... ?"

    Jerry - I think that you just made up those numbers, so of course they do not make sense or add up.
    *YOU* think *I* just made those numbers up? DO YOU NOT READ WHAT YOU WRITE?

    *YOU* said the following was a statistic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    How about this for a statistic - There are 300,000,000 of these components currently in service in the USA that average 35 years old.
    *I* just did the math for you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    At the risk of tossing more food to the Troll ...

    "average 35 years old"

    2014
    - 35
    1979

    So the average age is 35 years, they stopped making them when, around 1990 give or take, so there are 150,000,000 million of them made between 1979 and and 1990 (give or take a couple of years) ... ?

    I find that math doesn't quite compute ...


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    I do not know if I should even enter this fray since Mr. Abrams and I have hashed this out in other forums to nauseum.

    FPE is garbage, Zinsco is garbage, many of the old panels by many other manufacturers are garbage. We should be recommending older electrical equipment be evaluated and most likely replaced. FPE and Zinsco need to be replaced in my book.

    Now if you are part of the 2014 NEC adoption, here in Washington State it will be in July, you will have AFCI requirements for any branch circuit modification, that means even changing out the receptacle. This put even more pressure on these older systems to be upgraded.

    In the realm of safety getting these older panels and breakers out of the service seems the prudent thing to do. If you can afford some granite then you can afford a very nice and pretty Square D or Cutler Hammer panel (or whatever you prefer). They are sexy to home inspectors, at least this one

    Don Hester
    NCW Home Inspections, LLC
    Wa. St. Licensed H I #647, WSDA #80050, http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Older panels will be allowed to have an AFCI receptacle protect the circuit if an AFCI breaker cannot be used in the panel.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Older panels will be allowed to have an AFCI receptacle protect the circuit if an AFCI breaker cannot be used in the panel.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Older panels will be allowed to have an AFCI receptacle protect the circuit if an AFCI breaker cannot be used in the panel.
    All panels already have that option, however, the option has stringent requirements, and not requirements that electricians like because they think (all the ones who have asked me about this option) that all they have to do is to install the AFCI receptacle in place of the first receptacle in the circuit ... but it is not anywhere near that simple.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Jim, I should of clarified that because you are correct. I was being a bit too general. Installing AFCI receptacle at the first receptacle in the circuit will suffice for this protection.

    Still old crappy panels need to go away in my opinion

    - - - Updated - - -

    Jim, I should of clarified that because you are correct. I was being a bit too general. Installing AFCI receptacle at the first receptacle in the circuit will suffice for this protection.

    Still old crappy panels need to go away in my opinion

    Don Hester
    NCW Home Inspections, LLC
    Wa. St. Licensed H I #647, WSDA #80050, http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hester View Post
    Jim, I should of clarified that because you are correct. I was being a bit too general. Installing AFCI receptacle at the first receptacle in the circuit will suffice for this protection.
    Not correct, unless the circuit method between the panel and the first receptacle meets the requirements for installation AFCI protection outside the panel (outside the source of supply).

    From the 2008 NEC: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. - - (A) Definition: Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI). A device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and by functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected.
    - - (B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.
    - - - FPN No. 1: For information on types of arc-fault circuit interrupters, see UL 1699-1999, Standard for Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters.
    - - - FPN No. 2: See 11.6.3(5) of NFPA 72®-2007, National Fire Alarm Code®, for information related to secondary power supply requirements for smoke alarms installed in dwelling units.
    - - - FPN No. 3: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power-supply requirements for fire alarm systems.
    - - - Exception No. 1: Where RMC, IMC, EMT or steel armored cable, Type AC, meeting the requirements of 250.118 using metal outlet and junction boxes is installed for the portion of the branch circuit between the branch-circuit overcurrent device and the first outlet, it shall be permitted to install a combination AFCI at the first outlet to provide protection for the remaining portion of the branch circuit.
    - - - Exception No. 2: Where a branch circuit to a fire alarm system installed in accordance with 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) is installed in RMC, IMC, EMT, or steel armored cable, Type AC, meeting the requirements of 250.118, with metal outlet and junction boxes, AFCI protection shall be permitted to be omitted.

    There are many homes wired with wiring methods which will not permit the AFCI to be installed in place of the first receptacle outlet.

    An approved wiring method (see Exception 1 above) would need to be installed from the overcurrent protection to a metal box, the AFCI receptacle outlet installed in that metal box, and then another wiring method may be used after the AFCI device.

    Most electrical contractors I have talked with say the same thing you said: "Installing AFCI receptacle at the first receptacle in the circuit will suffice for this protection.", and that is incorrect - the circuit between the AFCI receptacle outlet and the overcurrent device need to meet Exception 1.

    (I realize I repeated the same information slightly differently, that was to make sure that no one thinks they can just install the AFCI in place of the first receptacle outlet in the circuit.)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    How about this for a statistic - There are 300,000,000 of these components currently in service in the USA that average 35 years old.
    Huh! 300 million FPE panels? That's about one for every man, woman, and child in the entire country. That doesn't leave much room for the other brands.

    I've seen less than three hundred FPE panels and have seen a major defect caused by design in two of those. I haven't seen any defects that are caused by the design of the panel in the five or so thousand GEs, Square Ds, Cutlers, etc.

    I disagree that there this is major controversy about FPE panels. I assert that there is barely controversy and usually sourced from old school curmudgeons such as yourself and Mr. Weatherington. (My wife tells me that I'm a curmudgeon, but if true, I'm a new school curmudgeon.)

    Finally, do you have enough confidence in FPE panels to tell your children or grandchildren that they should have no concerns about that FPE panel on the house they just bought?

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    An approved wiring method (see Exception 1 above) would need to be installed from the overcurrent protection to a metal box, the AFCI receptacle outlet installed in that metal box, and then another wiring method may be used after the AFCI device.

    Most electrical contractors I have talked with say the same thing you said: "Installing AFCI receptacle at the first receptacle in the circuit will suffice for this protection.", and that is incorrect - the circuit between the AFCI receptacle outlet and the overcurrent device need to meet Exception 1.
    I have yet to see an AFCI receptacle outlet....but I would have been wrong, too.

    One other thing about combination AFCI receptacle outlets (the current generation); the GFCI part trips at far higher milliamps than standard GFCI outlets and therefore do not provide the same level of GFCI protection found on normal GFCI outlets.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    I have yet to see an AFCI receptacle outlet....but I would have been wrong, too.
    I have not seen one installed. However, they are an option, but only if installed as required by the code.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    .........But if you are inferring that since Mr. Weatherington has not found a defective FPE panel or breaker, then there is not a problem with FPE panels; then I completely reject that conclusion based on the over-whelming preponderance of evidence to the contrary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    What is the over-whelming preponderance of evidence to the contrary? This is a very controversial subject.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    Try Googling "Federal Pacific" or "FPE" and try to find that statistic that FPE panels are not the problem. .....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Again the question is -What is the over-whelming preponderance of evidence to the contrary?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    ........The case against FPE panels is well documented for those who want to read it........

    Oh, and BTW, where's your "statistic" showing that FPE panels aren't the problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Jim,
    Not quite sure what you are saying. Is it that FPE is not a problem or do you simply want documentation?..........

    Douglas Hansen has also been a big advocate of FPE replacement. Granted, Doug does not represent a recognized testing lab, but he is generally regarded as knowledgeable, particularly in the field of electrical.

    http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE-Haz...sed-070525.pdf
    http://codecheck.com/cc/ccimages/PDFs/FPE_2012.pdf

    FPE 1.PDF
    FPE 2.PDF
    FPE for inspectors.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Billy - The CPSC does not agree with Jesse Aronstein and they are the authority that makes the decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Prove it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Again with the miss direct. The subject is not testing requirements or if some Agency wants a larger budget to "Investigate"

    It's about Fires and the loss of Life and Property.
    .....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Billy - How many fires are caused by FP breakers v other breakers ?
    With some trepidation I venture in to this discussion for fear of being acclaimed a "TROLL". Yet I will venture down the slope.

    First, it seems that Jim A you are now asking for actual data which you in a previous thread dealing with Fused Panels was not needed by yourself in that you were willing to accept undocumented opinion. I applaud you for your conversion to looking for data/testing/statistics to support a position.

    Second, The data/research provided in the argument against FPE is a small sampling to draw such a broad and sweeping conclusion/condemnation. Additionally there is reference to data/research in sealed reports/studies that are referred to as support, yet no mention how access to these reports were obtained nor how they were created. Leaving the conclusion that the author is using conjecture to arrive at his conclusions in the report of his research/testing..

    Thirdly, I agree with Billy S. that the bottom line is about fires and the loss of life, yet there seems not to be any reliable statistics to draw such broad conclusions as are being made to PFE and failure.

    I agree that there is some evidence that FPE breakers and panels have had issues with failure for a variety of reasons. Yet there have been failures in other manufactured panels and breakers without the same outcry for abolition.

    Unlike the case of Fused Edison type panels, where there has to be direct action to create a hazard. The FPE breaker as other breakers will fail without outside forces acting on them. Which does create a concern.

    The CPSC making a definitive statement with a supportive qualitative/quantitative basis rather than an estimated extrapolations based on a small sampling would be great. But, that is not going to happen. The CPSC will say that they can offer nothing other than they have no clear evidence against the Fed Specific as a hazard. Poor mouthing that they could not test further may be a copout but that is the way it is and does not support the argument that if they tested they would prove the FPE is a hazard. Which is a fallacious argument.

    The request to prove that anything is not a hazard as a rebuttal argument is a poor method to argue/discuss the topic. When the person is proporting that the item is hazardous. The reasons behind the lack of real data/statistics is a result of many factors and as Jerry P has stated they just don't go to the additional effort to make a detailed in-debth verification of the cause of a fire. It is sad that there is no differentiation between the type of panel involved and the manufacture, nor the actual cause of the failure.

    Granted the PFE as a company falsified UL testing. Granted FPE has had demonstrated failures. Granted it has been a topic of discussion for 35 +years. And there are an number of FPE panels in use with no demonstrated problems. There seems to be an almost universal opinion that FPE should be replaced if for no other reason to cover the HI, Electrician or Insurance Co for future liability; under the guise of protecting the homeowner.

    If the FPE was as evil a product as it is made out to be, why would it not have been universally abolished with a mandated that they must be replaced via Governmental Edict.

    I am still looking for the evidence that is more than a small study that doesn't have the supportive information as to detailed scientific testing methodology as you would find in a typical scientific article for publication. The devil is in the details of how and what was done.

    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 04-29-2014 at 02:25 PM.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Then as a side note: a little rant...

    Why does it become so contentious and abrasive when someone asks for relevant data, statistics and research that has been reviewed and is possible to reproduce. A hundred people standing in a circle repeating the same thing because they believe it is valid because it sounds good is not valid support for and argument.

    I realize egos are part of the answer, but are they not controllable.

    Rancor and insulting jabs, really is non productive and can not yield a consensus on a question, which I think is what we all are after.


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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post

    If the FPE was as evil a product as it is made out to be, why would it not have been universaly abbolished with a mandated that they must be replaced via Govermental Edict.
    Maybe some of the same Methodology and Agencies that have been "Investigating" the Tobacco Industry are ( have ) been involved.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    GM ignition switches are not faulty or bad either, and the ignition switches are not a hazard, have not caused any accidents or injuries either.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    It's the people using the GM cars who are the hazard and are dangerous.
    .
    .
    .
    Honest as Abe Lincoln ... I've not yet seen a car which can put a lot of keys on a key ring ... so what if having a heavy key ring does not cause the same problems for ignition switches in other cars ... it's the people who put all those keys on the key rings.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Don't FEED THE TROLL
    The Troll just took the bait, now to see if he runs with it ... y'all strapped into your seats on the back of the fishing boat?

    Keep a good hold on that rod too.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    I have yet to see an AFCI receptacle outlet....but I would have been wrong, too.

    One other thing about combination AFCI receptacle outlets (the current generation); the GFCI part trips at far higher milliamps than standard GFCI outlets and therefore do not provide the same level of GFCI protection found on normal GFCI outlets.

    Like Lon, I have yet to see a AFCI receptacle. Are they now on the retail market and available for installation like the GF's?


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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Over the years, I've read the updates to information about FPE panels. Much of it is rehash of previous information, but no other brand of panels have as many negative reports including Zinscos. Where there is smoke......there is usually a FPE panel.

    As for Kentucky, this is the same state that doesn't allow inspectors to point out code violations. Pity the home buyer in Kentucky who can only hire HIs who have one hand tied behind their backs and must where an eye patch on one eye.

    I can't find a record of an article concerning FPE panels in IAEI's magazine.

    As far as a preponderance of evidence, if the most rudimentary search does not convince you of which direction the preponderance of evidence points, then you aren't paying attention. You can still deny the evidence, but saying that there isn't evidence makes you eligible for a set of blinders from Kentucky.

    In my accumulated 35 years of experience in construction, real estate, and home inspections, there are several documented problems that I've never seen, but I have no reason to believe that they don't exist. I've seen two failed FPE breakers. I've never seen a failed Zinsco or Bulldog, but I wouldn't conclude that Zinsco and Bulldog must therefore be safe.

    The biggest concern with FPE breakers is the toughest to prove during an inspection, whether by a HI or an electrician. In UL testing, they had a very high failure to trip. Not even electricians test this feature on site. So just looking at a panel and seeing everything looking hunky-dory doesn't mean that those breakers will trip if the homeowner causes a short tomorrow. It may be interesting that there are some electricians who've never seen a problem with a FPE, but I have, so does their experience trump my own observations? My answer is no. It's possible that in my years as a home inspector, I may well have seen more FPE panels than the average electrician sees over the same years. I look at every panel at every inspection. Electricians often go on calls that have nothing to do with the panel.

    I learned long ago, that there are enough people on this planet, that there is someone who will take the opposite position on any topic and will refute the answer to any question no matter how obvious the answer is.

    Do any of you call a FPE panel "Serviceable" if you don't see an obvious defect in it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Wisnewski View Post
    Like Lon, I have yet to see a AFCI receptacle. Are they now on the retail market and available for installation like the GF's?
    Yes, but not installed exactly like GFCIs. They are prominent labelled as AFCI.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    If your son or daughter bought a house in the US with a FPE panel in it, I would suggest, provided the bus bars are not scorched, they could purchase a full set of Canadian Stab-lok breakers such as this, brand new for about $200.
    The new breakers seem to be completely trustworthy and contrary to the stories, they do not fall out when you open a panel. The thin wafer design is not available here, so there is no way with the Canadian product to stab 2 breakers into one slot.

    We see them every other day here, I have inspected 100's upon 100's of Federal Pioneer panels, because electricians like them. They are quick to install and quick to inspect. The deadfront goes on with long speed screws.

    The old Federal Pacifics are pre 1960 something. Those I recommend having replaced.


    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    I would guess the reason you don't see more issues with FPE breakers is that a vast majority of any make of breaker goes its' entire service life and never has occasion to trip - never sees an overload. This in and of itself is why more fires don't start because of FPE issues.

    I've worked in commercial and industrial areas where I found numerous FPE single AND double pole breakers that wouldn't trip when overloaded, and in fact wouldn't interrupt current when turned "off" manually. I find the same issues in residential panels that have had the benefit of DIY wiring and of E slot breakers forced into the straight end of F slots. I have also seen one type of buss construction where numerous screws and spacers are used in the assembly. Repeated heating of these will sometimes loosen the screws and cause arcing on the buss components.

    I used to intentionally fault FPE breakers in panels being removed for upgrades just to see what happened. The result is that my family has never slept in a house with an FPE panel.

    My experience says the stuff is junk and anybody who works on the stuff that can't say the same is either blind or been extremely lucky as to the breakers that got installed and panel condition.

    There are some issues with FPE main breakers also but these seem rarer in RESI FPE installs because of the old split buss stuff.

    Finally, the class action lawsuit in New Jersey found that the FPE panels did in fact have issues and damages were awarded. You really want to defend that when informing folks about panels?

    At the very least there should have been a recall of the breakers that had the UL listing fudged.

    Occam's eraser: The philosophical principle that even the simplest solution is bound to have something wrong with it.

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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    ... the evidence indicated that the circuit breakers did not present a hazard , ...
    This is what the CPSC said:
    - Commission Closes Investigation Of FPE Circuit Breakers And Provides Safety Information For Consumers | CPSC.gov

    (bold is mine)
    "According to Reliance, failures of these FPE breakers to comply with certain UL calibration requirements do not create a hazard in the household environment. It is Reliance's position that FPE breakers will trip reliably at most overload levels unless the breakers have been operated in a repetitive, abusive manner that should not occur during residential use. Reliance maintains that at those few overload levels where FPE breakers may fail to trip under realistic use conditions, currents will be too low to generate hazardous temperatures in household wiring. Reliance believes its position in this regard is supported by test data that it provided to the Commission.

    The Commission staff believes that it currently has insufficient data to accept or refute Reliance's position.
    The Commission staff estimates that it would cost several million dollars to gather the data necessary to assess fully whether those circuit breakers that are installed in homes but which may fail UL calibration tests present a risk to the public. Based on the Commission's limited budget ($34 million for fiscal year 1983), the known hazards the Commission has identified and must address (involving products of other manufacturers) and the uncertainty of the results of such a costly investigation, the Commission has decided not to commit further resources to its investigation of FPE's circuit breakers. However, despite its decision to close this particular investigation, the Commission will continue its investigation of circuit breakers generally. The Commission can reopen its investigation of FPE circuit breakers if further information warrants."

    I.e., the Commission will reopen the investigation when its budget allows for it to do so. That is what it came down to, and still comes down to - $$$$$$.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  59. #59
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Jerry,
    Isn't the salient point "...currently has insufficient data to accept or refute Reliance's position..."? How much data and its reliability would be interesting to see for ourselves. The statement possibly would be different if they had anything to say. Maybe they do not see anything wrong and rather than say so they decide to leave it in limbo. Possibly hoping to get some pressure/leverage to investigate and therefore a way to push for an increase in their budget.

    The CPSC probably makes the same type of statement about most of their inquires/research/testing.

    Having friends in the research community it is all about securing Grants to generate a job and their personal income. Researchers hope for definitive answers but can except writing inconclusive as the outcome of the Research Grant. Siting insufficient funding to reach a final conclusion. The process of writing grant proposals is often much like fishing, go where there is a better chance of fish rather than fish where you are.


  60. #60
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Gary - I believe the salient point is , "This action was taken because the data currently available to the Commission does not establish that the circuit breakers pose a serious risk of injury to consumers. "

    At that time the CPSC had the test data from Jesse Aronstein, and none supporting Reliance's position. Reliance would not release their data. The data from Aronstein does not establish a hazard , hence no action.


    When I have time I will have to look for Aronstein's research paper if it was published. Would like to know how 122 breakers tested can make a definitive statement as to the results that he presents.


  61. #61
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Jerry - You are correct . As with a government agencies it comes down to money. CPSC has bigger issues to deal with such as :
    Disco Lights Recalled by Tween Brands Due to Electrical Shock Hazard; Sold Exclusively at Justice
    Jim,

    As usual, you completely miss what is posted, then respond as though you are replying to the information in the post.

    Disco light recall research = $$
    FPE breaker and panel research = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  62. #62
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Jerry,
    Isn't the salient point "...currently has insufficient data to accept or refute Reliance's position..."?
    Garry,

    That is the accurately stated result.

    Those results are a result of lack of $$$$$$$$$

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Cabin]Gary - I believe the salient point is , "This action was taken because the data currently available to the Commission does not establish that the circuit breakers pose a serious risk of injury to consumers. "
    Jim,

    Garry is correct.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  63. #63
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Would like to know how 122 breakers tested can make a definitive statement as to the results that he presents.
    The same way that interviewing 330 people represents 300 million people with a +/-3% error accurate ...

    If 122 breakers are tested and 121 breakers fail ... and each breaker supposedly "typical" and "representative" of all, each and every breaker ... then the failure rate is quite high.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  64. #64
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Jim, Jim, Jim,

    You just don't get it (but that is to be expected from you).

    There was no "wild goose chase" to not want to go on.

    When short on budget $$$, it makes sense to spend those limited $$$ on projects which require fewer of those $$$.

    Should they have expended their entire budget on ONE project or spread those limited $$$ across SEVERAL projects?

    Any person who understands finances understands that doing SEVERAL projects is the better expenditure of limited $$$$. DO YOU understand finances?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  65. #65
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    Default Re: FPE Panels News Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    If 122 breakers are tested and 121 breakers fail ...

    and each breaker supposedly "typical" and "representative" of all, each and every breaker ... then the failure rate is quite high.
    Your Typical Revolver 6 Holds Rounds.

    If it only has 1 Live Round in the Cylinder the would this be an acceptability Risk to point it at your head and Pull the Trigger?

    Last edited by Billy Stephens; 05-01-2014 at 05:59 PM. Reason: added 6
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