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Thread: No ground?

  1. #1
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    Default No ground?

    I inspected this sub-panel today and did not see a ground. It appears it was for a hot tub on the rear porch...which is now gone. The breaker was turned off. As you can see it is 50A, 220V. Am I missing something or shouldn't this have a ground wire in there somewhere?

    PS. The black wire coming from below does not enter the panel....that is a Coax TV wire that goes behind it.

    Dave

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Yes, an equipment ground is required.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Rose View Post
    I inspected this sub-panel today and did not see a ground. It appears it was for a hot tub on the rear porch...which is now gone. The breaker was turned off. As you can see it is 50A, 220V. Am I missing something or shouldn't this have a ground wire in there somewhere?

    PS. The black wire coming from below does not enter the panel....that is a Coax TV wire that goes behind it.

    Dave
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Yes, an equipment ground is required.
    That"s IT??
    (Nothing about a Sub??)
    *is this The Kinder,Gentler Jerry Peck?
    **must be on his Mobile with no time to type.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    That"s IT??
    (Nothing about a Sub??)
    *is this The Kinder,Gentler Jerry Peck?
    **must be on his Mobile with no time to type.
    No, the s*b panel debate was extinguished a while back. You must have been at the Elvis convention that weekend.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 09-30-2014 at 10:03 PM. Reason: I was rude
    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  5. #5
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    No, the s*b panel debate was extinguished a while back. You must have been at the Elvis convention that weekend.
    No, it is on the back burner simmering, waiting for the right times to be spoon fed to others ... Elvis has not left the building, that was an Elvis impersonator who left.

    What about that conduit? Is it possibly providing grounding for the panel box?
    The raceway in question is PVC ... you were asking about it providing a ground path?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    No, the s*b panel debate was extinguished a while back. You must have been at the Elvis convention that weekend.
    Dang!!
    ( I missed it!!)

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  7. #7
    Marcin Bledowski's Avatar
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    Default Re: No ground?

    As far As I know the ground would be required.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Rose View Post
    I inspected this sub-panel today and did not see a ground. It appears it was for a hot tub on the rear porch...which is now gone. The breaker was turned off. As you can see it is 50A, 220V. Am I missing something or shouldn't this have a ground wire in there somewhere?

    PS. The black wire coming from below does not enter the panel....that is a Coax TV wire that goes behind it.

    Dave
    NEC 250.118.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Roberts View Post
    NEC 250.118.
    Which says what?

    Posting a code section number without posting the wording of the section doesn't really provide much information at all.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Hi All, My understanding of a sub panel is this:

    1.Both conduit & NM cable system require a floating neutral isolated from the ground in a sub panel. There are mechanical differences between the 2

    2. The basic rule is : Don't connect grounds with neural at any point after the main.

    3. In a conduit system, no ground conductors are brought into the sub panel enclosure, because the enclosure is part of the ground conductor system .

    Because parallel path could cause: Fires, High levels of electro magnetic issue (problematic for PC's and other sensitive equipment. shock hazards etc. Especially with a weak neutral connection.
    Further, Bonding grounds & neutral in a sub panel will allow neutral current to be also carried on the grounding conductors, including any bonded metal components with in the ground path.

    Hope this helps

    Fidel F. Gonzales
    RELIANT INSPECTION SERVICE
    http://www.reliantinspectionservice.com

  11. #11
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidel gonzales View Post
    Hi All, My understanding of a sub panel is this:
    Sub panels are found in submarines.

    That panel is a downstream panel ... a remote panel ... or just a panel ...

    The only panel with a specific name is the "service equipment" panel.

    With that said and out of the way ...

    [Quote]
    1.Both conduit & NM cable system require a floating neutral isolated from the ground in a sub panel. There are mechanical differences between the 2[/quote ]

    The only mechanical difference is a bonding connection connecting the neutral to ground - to me, that is an electrical difference instead of a mechanical difference.

    2. The basic rule is : Don't connect grounds with neural at any point after the main.
    After the service equipment ... which contains the main service disconnect - there are various "mains" for various purposes - so the "main" being referenced should be identified as the service main, main service disconnect, etc.

    3. In a conduit system, no ground conductors are brought into the sub panel enclosure, because the enclosure is part of the ground conductor system .
    Only if the conduit is metallic and the correct fittings are used.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Which says what?

    Posting a code section number without posting the wording of the section doesn't really provide much information at all.
    Article 250.118 says conduit is a suitable ground conductor, provided the over current protection does not exceed 20 amperes, for a 1/2" conduit. In this case, the OCP is 50 amperes, which is excessive for a hot tub, but still is 50 amperes. The conduit is larger than 1/2", and therefore the 20 amp limit for conduit does not apply.

    250.118 Types of Equipment Grounding

    Conductors. The equipment grounding conductor run with or enclosing the circuit conductors shall be one or more or a combination of the following:

    (1) A copper, aluminum, or copper-clad aluminum conductor. This conductor shall be solid or stranded; insulated, covered, or bare; and in the form of a wire or a busbar of any shape.

    (2) Rigid metal conduit.
    (3) Intermediate metal conduit.

    (4) Electrical metallic tubing with an additional equipment grounding conductor.
    (5) Listed flexible metal conduit with an additional equipment grounding conductor,
    and meeting all the following conditions:

    a. The conduit is terminated in fittings listed for grounding.

    b. The combined length of flexible metal conduit and liquidtight flexible metal conduit in the same ground return path does not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft) for feeders and 15 m (50 ft) for branch circuits.

    c. The additional equipment grounding

    conductor is terminated at each termination or junction point.

    (6) Listed liquidtight flexible metal conduit meeting all the following conditions:

    a. The conduit is terminated in fittings listed for grounding.

    b. For metric designators 12 through 16 (trade sizes 3/8 through 1/2), the circuit conductors contained in the conduit are protected by overcurrent devices rated at 20 amperes or less.




  13. #13
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Roberts View Post
    Article 250.118 says conduit is a suitable ground conductor, provided the over current protection does not exceed 20 amperes, for a 1/2" conduit. In this case, the OCP is 50 amperes, which is excessive for a hot tub, but still is 50 amperes. The conduit is larger than 1/2", and therefore the 20 amp limit for conduit does not apply.

    250.118 Types of Equipment Grounding

    Conductors. The equipment grounding conductor run with or enclosing the circuit conductors shall be one or more or a combination of the following:

    (1) A copper, aluminum, or copper-clad aluminum conductor. This conductor shall be solid or stranded; insulated, covered, or bare; and in the form of a wire or a busbar of any shape.

    (2) Rigid metal conduit.
    (3) Intermediate metal conduit.

    (4) Electrical metallic tubing with an additional equipment grounding conductor.
    (5) Listed flexible metal conduit with an additional equipment grounding conductor,
    and meeting all the following conditions:

    a. The conduit is terminated in fittings listed for grounding.

    b. The combined length of flexible metal conduit and liquidtight flexible metal conduit in the same ground return path does not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft) for feeders and 15 m (50 ft) for branch circuits.

    c. The additional equipment grounding

    conductor is terminated at each termination or junction point.

    (6) Listed liquidtight flexible metal conduit meeting all the following conditions:

    a. The conduit is terminated in fittings listed for grounding.

    b. For metric designators 12 through 16 (trade sizes 3/8 through 1/2), the circuit conductors contained in the conduit are protected by overcurrent devices rated at 20 amperes or less.

    First, a 50 amp OCPD is not excessive for a hot tub. It is a very common size.

    Secondly you might want to read the part in blue which only applies to liquidtight flexible metal conduit. It does not apply like you stated above.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: No ground?

    Thanks everyone, it seems someone forgot the ground....just surprised me...thought I may be missing something easy. The conduit is plastic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thanks everyone, it seems someone forgot the ground....just surprised me...thought I may be missing something easy. The conduit is plastic.


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