Thread: Todays Inspection

At todays inspection, the same house with the double shower head I knew I was in trouble when the first things out of the agents mouth were, 'don't scare my client'.

Well, not one to mince words, or be politically correct or kiss arse, I thought to myself this should be interesting.

First off I find out the semi has an illegal non conforming basement apartment which -

1. Has a common exit and an undersized bedroom window, small window well and sill which is not with 3' feet of grade.
2. No smoke alarms, nor CO detectors.
3. Door to apartment was not metal or solid wood.
4. Basement furnace room not fully dry walled (ceiling and walls).
5. Loose wiring, no gfci at kitchen counter.
6. No insulation in basement walls.
7. Electrical work done by non licenced electrician.
8. Halogen pot light within inches of the top of the wood door (hollow) into apartment .
9. Incomplete hand rail down basement steps.
10. No return air duct for basement apartment except the one immediately above the furnace room.
11. A floor drain which had fresh cement poured around floor drain with no grate and which may not have had a trap.
12. Alu. and copper branch lines from panel in apartment to rest of house.
13. 1st and 2nd floor wired with alu. to non approved outlets which were marked with CU only and had the hardware bar codes still on them. And one outlet wired with alu. had a broken ground wire.
14. Side entrance door installed to swing out into driveway and hinges on the exterior!. Agent couldn't get it through her head it was a problem.

Agent was very pushy in telling my client all the issues, amongst others could be fixed.
Client was adamant that he did not want to now purchase house which he was going to rent out.
Agent kept pushing client that it wasn't a problem.

Needless to say by the time I got through with the joint the agent was peeved, client was very happy and impressed.

Just reaffirms why I don't solicit agents, even though this agent met me at a party and was the first and the last time I will be called by her, but will be called by the client who was glad I was there.

Agent was very pushy in telling my client all the issues, amongst others could be fixed

Well of course they can. Anything can be fixed, it just depends on how big a check you have to write.

By the time I got through with the house the client didn't want anything to do with it. The fact it was an illegal apartment which was shrugged off by the agent (she said 'we' know its illegal but everyone does it!). Client would not of been able to get insurance because no insurer is going to insure a house with an illegal apartment with a house that had non licenced electrical work. Yup agents are worth their commission alright! What an attitude.

Had to tell a client yesterday that the 4 unit building they wanted to buy was only a 3 unit building. Also the 3rd apartment was only a studio, not a 2 bedroom.
- 4th unit was an illegal basement conversion, loads of non-compliance; tenant has his bed on crates because it floods during heavy rain
- 3rd unit, both bedrooms had insufficient L&V, one of which had a furnace in the bedroom with no fire separation, no combustion air, squat
Dual agent wasn't happy. Buyer reportedly knows the Seller; Seller was reportedly doing the Buyer a favor by letting him buy the property off market.
With friends like that who needs ...
Had an agent shake his head last week when he saw me show up. Using my ESP I'm assuming he thought 'oh crap this isn't going to go well'. Oddly enough the place was pretty decent and the deal is going through.

October 3, 2014
Agents on the hook for illegal in-law suites
Discipline hearings signal need for fuller knowledge about two-unit homes

Agents on the hook for illegal in-law suites

It appears that RECO now requires agents to confirm whether a basement apartment is legal — a complex taskthat involves determining whether the unit complies with zoning bylaws, fire code, building code, electrical safety requirements, and — in some municipalities — registration and licensing.

The problem is that municipalities will not tell owners or agents whether basement units are legal. How, then, can RECO require agents to verify legality of those units?

Well in my case yesterday a home inspector could confirm whether its legal or not for a potential purchaser. As in my case an inspection revealed it would not conform. No smoke detectors, lack of metal or solid wood doors, no gfci at kitchen counters, nor drywall on the ceiling nor walls of the furnace room attached to the adjoining apartment and wiring done by non licenced electrician.

It appears that RECO now requires agents to confirm whether a basement apartment is legal — a complex taskthat involves determining whether the unit complies with zoning bylaws, fire code, building code, electrical safety requirements, and — in some municipalities — registration and licensing.

The solution seems to be to not advertise the second, third, fourth, etc., rental unit - advertise it as a single family as that would solve the problems with the real estate board

Jerry

Yes only with the real estate board, but its still illegal if it doesn't meet zoning, fire, building code and electrical code requirements. At which point RECO may not care, but rather strange they would condone selling of something illegal.

However there still remains the issue with insuring the premise, and I don't know any insurance company which would knowingly insure something which is illegal.

Raymond,

I was only addressing the real estate board as far as just advertising as single family.

In addition to the things you said, the agents and sellers would see a dramatic drop in prices because they couldn't advertise any rental aspect.

The clamp down should come from the cities on the owners/landlords ... and be accompanied with high enough fines to make sure it is not worth the fine to keep renting out units which do not meet zoning, code and safety requirements.

Yes, Jerry, thats the way I look at it too.

In this case my concern is that the listing agent and owner will do nothing, and continue to market the property to the next party that comes along. I hope the next party is astute enough to have an inspection, but as we know not everyone commissions an inspection, or may be able to afford one.

I am so concerned about what I found and heard, that I will be contacting the FD inspection services, electrical authorities, and the by-law enforcement people this a.m.

As for the buyers agent who recommended me was a big, big disappointment. When my client expressed several times throughout the inspection that he was no longer interested in the house the agent kept pushing that things could be fixed, and was clearly not respecting the clients sole discretion not to waive the inspection. A good agent would have been on side and said yes I agree, lets keep looking, this is not the property for you. But then we know that many agents are not cut from ethical cloth.

As local background ...
The City decides whether a unit is an illegal conversion or not. This is for basements, attics or other potential spaces. This generally only occurs if the City comes out to the property for a reason; i.e. complaint, fire, criminal activity etc. There is no specific 'lets find these places' program. The County or other bodies don't get involved. Local smaller municipalities are pretty much the same around here. They don't have the resources to do much else.
When in doubt agents around here put a disclaimer on the listing that goes something like this: 'Neither agent nor seller warrant the conformance of the basement unit, Buyer to verify any requirements'
Unfortunately a lot of HI's don't educate themselves well enough or have antiquated mis-conceptions about liability so they don't write up illegal conversions. Or of course their pathetic pre-printed checkbox reports don't have room for it.
We are hoping to change that in 2015. We are putting together new classes that will address Code issues and HI work along with other important topics.

Originally Posted by Markus Keller

As local background ...
Unfortunately a lot of HI's don't educate themselves well enough or have antiquated mis-conceptions about liability so they don't write up illegal conversions. Or of course their pathetic pre-printed checkbox reports don't have room for it.
We are hoping to change that in 2015. We are putting together new classes that will address Code issues and HI work along with other important topics.

Since, I don't think most HIs want to or should try to call out every single code violation (around here every municipality has their own spins on the IRC and they are constantly changing their spins); I really don't want to add identifying zoning violations to what we do. We have enough liability with identifying the physical defects, in my opinion. If this should become an issue here, I'd advocate against HIs identifying zoning violations.

As for agents who don't understand their roles, much less our's: as Colorado heads toward licensing HIs, I've facetiously suggested that HIs report the violations that we see agents commit. Oddly, the agents wanting to police HIs are not amused by that suggestion. Hardly a week goes by that I don't hear an agent say something that is an ethics violation. It's usually the long time agents with years of experience that are the worst.

2 points Lon,
- HI's are not in a position to call out 'every single Code violation' and shouldn't be. The idea that if you address a single code issue you have to address every single code issue there may be is outdated and does a dis-service to our clients and our industry. Anyone who thinks we should address all Code issues is somewhere between a moron and not understanding an HI's role. I would not advocate HI's do Code inspections nor will that be the emphasize of one of our classes.
The point is that HI's should be sufficiently educated to call out blatant major issues. No windows, duh its not a habitable room, its a walk in closet; less than 7' ceiling height or 1' knee walls, duh its not a compliant apartment. No handrail along the stairs, duh there's supposed to be a handrail. Some of it isn't exactly rocket science.
Someone would need a full time staff to keep up with all Code changes or which Muni is using which Code. It isn't feasible to address all issues. However, using that as an excuse not to address obvious issues is a cop out.
- As far as agents around here ... the younger, newer ones are usually the scumbags because they are hungry and need a deal to close to put food on the table. The older agents who tend to have multiple deals in the pipe line tend to be better.

Markus,

Doesn't Chicago have a Code Enforcement Department?

Code Enforcement is not the same as building code enforcement, Code Enforcement enforces local ordinances, such as Property Maintenance Code, dogs barking, one neighbor irritating another neighbor with noise, and all those types of ordinances (tall grass, unsafe structures, renting of houses/apartments/rooms, etc. is usually under Code Enforcement).

Sometimes, Code Enforcement is under the building department sometimes CE is under the poilce department, many times (most times?) CE is a separate department or separate division in the same department as another office.

Added with edit:

City of Chicago :: Building and License Enforcement

Looks like Chicago has a separate Code Enforcement department/division and makes referrals to/from the Building Department for some things:

(underlining and bold are mine)
"The section staffs court calls in administrative adjudication courtrooms to assist and prosecute difficult cases which are referred by the Building Department such as heat cases, high rise violations, illegal conversions, Strategic Task force inspections, exterior wall cases, and all fire and lead paint abatement cases referred to DAH by the Fire and Health Departments respectively."

Hi Jerry, no we do not have a separate Code Enforcement Dept. Building code compliance & violation issues, unsafe structures, apartment rentals, SRO's etc. are dealt with by the Dept. of Buildings. Tall grass can be written up by City building inspectors or tickets can be written by the Dept. of Streets and Sanitation. Barking dogs and neighbor disputes are usually dealt with by the Police Dept.
Our system works on a 311 call basis. A citizen calls 311, lodges a complaint and that complaint gets forwarded to the appropriate Dept. The system has its pro's and con's.
Local smaller municipalities have Code Enforcement departments as you envision them. We do things our way around here.
Illegal conversions are a big issue here. Unfortunately, the unofficial position is that City inspectors aren't supposed to write buildings they haven't been specifically sent to. There are multiple reasons for that but they tend to be about politics rather than common sense. Some inspectors defy that unofficial order, lots tow the Dept line. Of course then there is the exception of if they see something eminently D&H. Our system has so many stupid shortcomings that keep it from serving the public as well as it should. I should probably shut up though before I get into trouble.

If they operate based on called in complaints ... I know a number you can call your complaint about that place into - 311 ...

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

At todays inspection, the same house with the double shower head I knew I was in trouble when the first things out of the agents mouth were, 'don't scare my client'..

Why do they even bother? Raymond we stopped soliciting agents years ago. Its a no win.. We just a couple weeks ago we had our attorney write an agent a letter to an agent that was telling my buyers that if they use our Co. on his listing, he'd cancel the deal. Did that 4 times in a month.

Good morning Marc,

In my instance, I met this agent at a friends election campaign win party two weeks ago. She happen to ask me what I did for a living. She mentioned she was an agent and gave me her card. A day or two later she called me and said she had a client interested in purchasing a property and it was her policy to give clients three names of inspectors. A couple of more days pass and I get a call from a chap wanting to book an inspection. I asked him who the agent was and of course it was from this agent I had met.

Like you I do not solicit agents because like you I have had my fair share of incompetent, pushy, know it all agents, who don't like my honesty and thoroughness.

I am certain she wishes she never met me.
But the client was most impressed, which in the end is what matters. He confided in me afterwards that he didn't like the agent because she was too pushy.

But like I said I knew it was going to be a bumpy ride when she said, 'don't scare my client'!

No Xmas commission cheque for her! Ho .. Ho .. Ho

Everybody loves Raymond! ... well not everyone.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

I am certain she wishes she never met me.
But the client was most impressed, which in the end is what matters. He confided in me afterwards that he didn't like the agent because she was too pushy.

But like I said I knew it was going to be a bumpy ride when she said, 'don't scare my client'!

The best agents want the best for their clients and.....hire me. I have one agent who tells me how delicate his clients are every time, and every time I thank him for advising me and do my normal inspection and he still refers me. And to his credit, he never underplays any defects I find even though he may be groaning inside.

Originally Posted by Marc M

Why do they even bother? Raymond we stopped soliciting agents years ago. Its a no win.. We just a couple weeks ago we had our attorney write an agent a letter to an agent that was telling my buyers that if they use our Co. on his listing, he'd cancel the deal. Did that 4 times in a month.

Marc,

Years ago I had a listing agent hand write at the bottom of the contract that if the buyer used me for the inspection, the deal was off ... the buyer, who had not been a client of mine before, called me and let me know, then called the seller and said that if they want to sell their house that they will fire their agent.

I was told that there was some hesitation on the seller's part because the listing agent kept saying they "had a listing contract" with the seller, but after the buyer's attorney sent a letter to the listing agent ... all problems and the listing agent went away.

The client's attorney took that office's broker and all their agents through hell and back is what I heard later.

Doing this one tomorrow - Listing Agent advertised place as having a 6 Car Garage - a Man Door and 6ft between two double doors doesn't qualify as a 6th space in my book. Next to Used Car Salesmen, some Agents are pretty shady.... Had one this last Summer where listing stated there was AC - $4500 later - out of the Listing Office's Pocket - it did !

Pushy real estate agents are what led to my demise as a practicing home inspector. I didn't mind being called a deal-breaker on more than one occasion, but when one of the local female agents practically broke down in tears when asking (pleading, actually) why I had to list so many defects with the house she was desperate to sell, I decided I didn't need that kind of melodrama in my life. Went back to inspecting bridges for consultants around the country. While not perfect, most of them were satisfied with the content and quality of my reports.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Marc,

Years ago I had a listing agent hand write at the bottom of the contract that if the buyer used me for the inspection, the deal was off ... the buyer, who had not been a client of mine before, called me and let me know, then called the seller and said that if they want to sell their house that they will fire their agent.

I was told that there was some hesitation on the seller's part because the listing agent kept saying they "had a listing contract" with the seller, but after the buyer's attorney sent a letter to the listing agent ... all problems and the listing agent went away.

The client's attorney took that office's broker and all their agents through hell and back is what I heard later.

I love it..So did you do that inspection?

A few weeks ago, I did an inspection for an elderly couple (kinda funny since I'm only a few years from elderly myself). I didn't know the agent but knew he specialized in the retirement community where this inspection was. Before we walked into the house the agent disclosed that there was a FPE panel and the HOA covered it. "If anything goes wrong with it, the HOA will repair it."

I said that just being FPE meant something was wrong with it and there is no repair; there is only replacement. He said that was just an opinion and there are two camps regarding the risk from FPE panels. I was swallowing my tongue trying to diplomatically correct him and save him from doing some 'splaining to the real estate commission. He repeatedly rebuffed the life savers I tossed him.

Afterward, I sent out a brief on FPE panels to the two hundred agents that I know. I received a dozen or so responses thanking me and one from him congratulating me for killing his deal over the FPE panel.

I called the buyers who explained that the FPE panel had less to do with their backing out and more to do with the agent. They were aware that I had tried to pull the agent out the quicksand and felt that if he was was too dense or dishonest to listen to me, that they would rather find another house with another agent than continue with this guy. They said that his refusal to ask the seller to replace the FPE panel was the clincher for them.

I've debated with myself whether to privately tell this agent how far over the ethics line he wandered or just move on. I have some doubts that he is open to advice. Several years ago, a broker asked me to talk to his agents about the ethics violations I regularly see agents commit. The list is long and varied.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

A few weeks ago, I did an inspection for an elderly couple (kinda funny since I'm only a few years from elderly myself). I didn't know the agent but knew he specialized in the retirement community where this inspection was. Before we walked into the house the agent disclosed that there was a FPE panel and the HOA covered it. "If anything goes wrong with it, the HOA will repair it."

I said that just being FPE meant something was wrong with it and there is no repair; there is only replacement. He said that was just an opinion and there are two camps regarding the risk from FPE panels. I was swallowing my tongue trying to diplomatically correct him and save him from doing some 'splaining to the real estate commission. He repeatedly rebuffed the life savers I tossed him.

Afterward, I sent out a brief on FPE panels to the two hundred agents that I know. I received a dozen or so responses thanking me and one from him congratulating me for killing his deal over the FPE panel.

I called the buyers who explained that the FPE panel had less to do with their backing out and more to do with the agent. They were aware that I had tried to pull the agent out the quicksand and felt that if he was was too dense or dishonest to listen to me, that they would rather find another house with another agent than continue with this guy. They said that his refusal to ask the seller to replace the FPE panel was the clincher for them.

I've debated with myself whether to privately tell this agent how far over the ethics line he wandered or just move on. I have some doubts that he is open to advice. Several years ago, a broker asked me to talk to his agents about the ethics violations I regularly see agents commit. The list is long and varied.

Hey Lon, here's a positive spin.....the day you retire you can write a "tell all" book about this business and how for some, how money drives it, not service, not for the good of our clients, but greed. I'm sure you can enlist a few of the guys in here which will show how it doesn't matter, from California to Florida it all the same. Just make sure you are truly retired and don't plan on coming back to the business.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

....... Before we walked into the house the agent disclosed that there was a FPE panel and the HOA covered it. "If anything goes wrong with it, the HOA will repair it."..........

Devil's advocate. If in fact the HOA is responsible for the FPE panel the seller may not be able to change out the panel without going through the HOA and getting their permission and dancing to their tune on the replacement. If the HOA agreed for the replacement then they would open the flood gates for all of the other panels to be replaced by the HOA, which they may not want to do... Remember the HOA is run by the owners of the properties and they can see the HOA fees going up which they may not want.

The FPE panel is not a recall issue (yet) and is a matter of communal opinion on its replacement. So if it ain't broke why fix it??? Which is a common stance on many things..Even if it is about potential safety..

The real question is why did the buyers not just figure on the FPE panel replacement in their offer and they (buyer) could could do it on their own. I (as an agent) would have suggested as part of the Sales Contract that the Sellers obtain the HOA's written permission to allow the change out the panel by the Buyer's. Buyer offers a few bucks less and life is good..Deal done.. Sellers don't have to do things before the as new owners take possession. That is something that has evolved over the past 25 years.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Devil's advocate. If in fact the HOA is responsible for the FPE panel the seller may not be able to change out the panel without going through the HOA and getting their permission and dancing to their tune on the replacement. If the HOA agreed for the replacement then they would open the flood gates for all of the other panels to be replaced by the HOA, which they may not want to do... Remember the HOA is run by the owners of the properties and they can see the HOA fees going up which they may not want.

In this case, I've done many inspections over the years in this community and the HOA does not object to an owner replacing the panels. I agree that the HOA doesn't replace because of the massive cost. This is the only community that I'm aware of where the HOA covers the panels.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

The FPE panel is not a recall issue (yet) and is a matter of communal opinion on its replacement. So if it ain't broke why fix it??? Which is a common stance on many things..Even if it is about potential safety..

Since FPE is gone, there isn't a company to recall them. While I generally agree with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", I make exceptions with things that can cause a catastrophic event when they fail such as water heaters and FPE panels.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

The real question is why did the buyers not just figure on the FPE panel replacement in their offer and they (buyer) could could do it on their own. I (as an agent) would have suggested as part of the Sales Contract that the Sellers obtain the HOA's written permission to allow the change out the panel by the Buyer's. Buyer offers a few bucks less and life is good..Deal done.. Sellers don't have to do things before the as new owners take possession. That is something that has evolved over the past 25 years.

The FPE panel wasn't disclosed to the buyers until we arrived for the inspection. I suspect (as do the buyers) that the panel would never have been disclosed to them had they not hired an inspector. According to the buyers, the agent didn't make an effort to negotiate a solution between them and the seller. As I said, the FPE panel was less of a problem than the agent. My guess is that the agent would spin the story very differently if asked. And even if the buyers are not accurately representing what transpired between them and the agent, what I saw and heard from the agent was still well over the ethics line.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

... They were aware that I had tried to pull the agent out the quicksand and felt that if he was was too dense or dishonest to listen to me, that they would rather find another house with another agent than continue with this guy.
...
I've debated with myself whether to privately tell this agent how far over the ethics line he wandered or just move on. I have some doubts that he is open to advice.

Given that his clients thought he didn't listen, I think you are correct that he won't listen to you, either.