Thread: any electrical code prevent GFI outlet wired to GFI breaker

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Where exactly is "Evaluate" in DDID?

Type out what DDID stands for and you will see it. THINK, man, THINK.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Type out what DDID stands for and you will see it. THINK, man, THINK.

I'm thinking....you are struggling! Go on.....tap out

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

I'm thinking....you are struggling! Go on.....tap out

Nah, you can't be thinking ... and I'm here just relaxing, seeing if you will start thinking, and the only tapping out I'm doing is tapping out these replies.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Nah, you can't be thinking ... and I'm here just relaxing, seeing if you will start thinking, and the only tapping out I'm doing is tapping out these replies.

I have been in your position before, on my back studying the rafters of the gym ceiling. When you can feel the breath of the referee in your ear, its time to tap.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

You (as in the HI) DID the "evaluation", NOW the electrician has to do his testing to DETERMINE what the problem is.
.

There are two things that we are unlikely to ever agree on.
1) Calling for "further evaluation" in our reports.
and
2) Politics

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

There are two things that we are unlikely to ever agree on.
1) Calling for "further evaluation" in our reports.
and
2) Politics

One would think that, with the 50-50 odds, YOU would have gotten one of the two right ... but you didn't get either right ...

I had one today in a 7 year old bathroom. I tripped it from the other bathroom with my tester. Went in there, dang thing wouldn't reset. There is no GFCI breaker in the panel. Checked the 3rd bathroom but it had a powered up GFCI, which then tested good. Went back and gave the button a good push with a screwdriver and it reset. After that it was fine, smooth as silk. You are supposed to test them or they do go bad.

On topic, but unlikely to be seen here in N. America, so just for education purposes, and to highlight my findings when I'm inspecting:


Where I was trained having multiple circuit fault protection devices on the same circuit was not only allowed, but required!

Unlike N. America, which I believe only ever uses a Radial circuit for electrical power distribution in residential circuits, in the U.K., Singapore, the Arab Emirates, India, Sri-Lanka and a couple of other places that the British used to run as colonies.

In these implementations, the circuit starts at the panel, runs around the building and returns to the panel. Putting a single RCD into the circuit does not protect the circuit (unless it's at the panel). So if you want protection at the receptacle (we call them sockets) you have to install an RCD where you need it.

Either that or you have to find the first receptacle in the circuit either side of the panel and put an RCD in each.

There are also a number of different types of RCD, these all have their own designation, which identifies their capabilities or function (other than cutting the circuit on an unbalance load between live (hot) and neutral)

RCD - Residual Current Detector.
RCCB - Residual Current Operated Circuit-Breaker without Integral over-current protection
RCBO - Residual Current Operated Circuit-Breaker with Integral over-current protection
SRCD - Socket outlet incorporating an RCD (What we call a GFCI receptacle)
FCURCD - Fused connection unit incorporating an RCD. (essential an RCD protecting a fixed spur)
PRCD - Portable RCD (Yep! A plugin GFCI)
CBR - Circuit breaker incorporating and RCD (This one goes in the panel)
RCM - Resdual Current Monitor (Only ever came across these when working at Eastern Electricity and Hanson Power, why anyone would want to monitor an unbalanced current but no trip it in a residential implementation I never did get to the bottom of)
MRCD - Modular RCD. Again mainly used by utilities, it's a sort of smart trip, it sends a signal on an unbalance load to a remote switch which trips the circuit.

In addition to that we have the term ELCB (Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker). Many people (including some over on Mike Holt's site) will say these are the same but that is not entirely true.

Again, just because the U.K. likes to make things difficult, there are two types of ELCB. There's the Voltage ELCB and the Current ELCB. (That's current as in AMPs not Current as available now)

The Current ELCB is in fact very similar to the modern GFCI or RCD. The Voltage ELCB was different in the fact that it monitored voltage running to ground through the earth connection (running to ground via the ground wire) and tripping when this was detected.

This last one was a PITB because it generally tripped whenever their was a lighting storm nearby, as it didn't care if the voltage was coming from the circuit down to ground, or from the ground into the circuit. (Plus it didn't work if there was no ground)

Anyway, this brings me to my observations:

Every time I've seen multiple GFCI's on the same circuit it's been for one of three reasons:

1. It was installed by a Homeowner who had lots of money and thought it was a safety device that should be fitted to every outlet.
2. It was installed by an Electrician who was trained in one of the U.K. colonies, and didn't really understand that there is a significant difference between radial and ring circuits or how to protect each differently.
3. It was installed by an Electrician who convinced a Homeowner that had lots of money that it was a safety device that should be fitted to every outlet.

In case 1 one wonders how they survive.
In case 2 one wonders how they get a license.
In case 3 one wonders how they stay in business.

I hope this amused and educated at the same time.