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Thread: 6-throws or 7

  1. #1
    Paul Tooley's Avatar
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    Default 6-throws or 7

    Hey all. I looked at a house this afternoon that was typical NC - exterior main panel with up to 6 breakers, and a sub in the house somewhere.
    Now I know that the main can have no more than 6 throws when there is no single main disconnect, but this one made me go ??

    There are actually 7 throws in the panel, but the one/two at the top right of the picture are for the water heater and the detached shed sub-panel.

    Question is: is this kosher or do they need to move the extra circuit? There is room in the house sub-panel.

    other info: the house is 10 years old and the shed does not look anything like a harry homowner deal.

    (the other pic is one of me working in the blacksmith shop at the state fair. my favorite hobby)

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    Last edited by Paul Tooley; 11-15-2007 at 08:23 PM. Reason: typo fix
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    Paul,

    It looks like the breakers are tied together to meet the 6 total throw requirement.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  3. #3
    Richard Moore's Avatar
    Richard Moore Guest

    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    From Paul's description, this is the service equipment and all of those breakers make up the service disconnect. So there should only be 6 throws, not the 7 (doesn't matter that one is feeding the shed). Technically, it's wrong and should be reported as such.

    Big but coming...

    BUT, from a purely practical safety point of view, removing one breaker isn't really going to make that much difference in the time it takes to shut everything off. I could probably swipe both sides in two motions (albeit including slicing my palm on the water pump lock-off). What could cause potentially serious delay or hesitation is that nothing is labeled as the service disconnect.

    If I was somehow forced to choose between removing a breaker or clearly labeling the service disconnect, I'd have to go with the latter.

    Fortunately, no choice necessary, and we have the luxury of recommending both!

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    Last edited by Richard Moore; 11-16-2007 at 04:38 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    Richard,

    The breakers on the top right are tied together.

    Would this then be 6 not 7 throws?

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  5. #5
    Richard Moore's Avatar
    Richard Moore Guest

    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    Billy,
    You have 5 full size double pole breakers, and then the two pairs of half size breakers at the top right. They are tied together in pairs (2 inner and 2 outer), not all four...hence two throws just for those. It's definitely 7 throws (5 + 2).


  6. #6
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    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Moore View Post
    Billy,
    They are tied together in pairs (2 inner and 2 outer), not all four...hence two throws just for those. .
    Richard

    Thanks they all looked tied together.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Moore View Post
    You have 5 full size double pole breakers, and then the two pairs of half size breakers at the top right. They are tied together in pairs (2 inner and 2 outer), not all four...hence two throws just for those. It's definitely 7 throws (5 + 2).
    Richard is correct.

    And 7 is not allowed.

    By the way ... did you get to inspect the submarine? Cool!

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
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    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    Just a question... are you sure that is a service panel and not an equipment panel?

    Did you check at the incoming meter for a disconnect or at a pole?

    Many times I caught myself (almost) thinking a panel was 'service' equipment when in fact, there was a main disconnect located as a separate box.

    rr


  9. #9
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    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    By the way, occasionally the question comes up as to 'what does a breaker lockout look like', there is one type installed on the center right breaker. Flip the breaker 'off', then insert a small padlock through the hole, that prevents the breaker from being turned back on until the lock is removed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
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    Post Re: 6-throws or 7

    Six throws. The four mini-breakers top right appear tied together for one throw. Panel should be labeled that all six need to be "OFF" to disconnect power.

    Randall Aldering GHI BAOM MSM
    Housesmithe Inspection
    www.housesmithe.com

  11. #11
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    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Aldering View Post
    Six throws. The four mini-breakers top right appear tied together for one throw.
    Randy,

    Seven throws.

    Look closely at those top right four and you will see that the top-and-bottom of the four are tied together, and the center-two are tied together, making two throws right there.

    There are five other breakers to throw after those two.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    Like this.

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    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
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    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    There is zero question that this set up requires 7 throws. No question, as Richard Moore properly described above, that the top right hand corner has the top 1st and 4th breaker trip-tied as well as #2 and #3 tied together.

    rr


  14. #14
    Paul Tooley's Avatar
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    Default Re: 6-throws or 7

    Sorry all for not being around to answer questions. There was no separate main disconnect in a different panel or at the pole. Underground service and the meter box is integral with the main disconnect(s) panel. this is very typical in NC. There are seven individual throws - the two in quesiton are at the upper right corner of the box, with the top and bottom trips being connected and the two center trips being connected. The top and bottom ones are for the detached shed

    as far as reporting goes, I did report it as a "repairs needed" item. I also explained to my client that I was going to do so, but may edit my report based on responses I was going to get from other pros in the field.

    Last edited by Paul Tooley; 11-19-2007 at 03:44 AM. Reason: the rest of the questions answered

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