Thread: Double Breaker???

I have seen the skinny space saver type breakers before, but never one of these.


Is this just another type of double breaker?

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Jon,

There are a ton of those breakers out there. It is the old style Square D QO tandem breaker.

Have not heard of any issues with that type breaker. See'em all the time.

rr

neal lewis, the one I have seen, had a hock on the end, and where used in
CTL Load Centers.

I have one, where I believe a D.I.Y. needed another breaker in a full panel.
So the end was file off, so it could lock into this QO SD electrical panel.

Now I use for show and tell.

But your right, Square D did make a back to back beaker that could just as easy slide right into a none CTL Load Center.

The place I see back to back breaker rated for CTL Load Centers, is usual
found inside house trailer load center electrical panel box.

Yea I notice the date stamp on this thread, but saw no one else follow up
on it.

Originally Posted by Jon Randolph

I have seen the skinny space saver type breakers before, but never one of these.


Is this just another type of double breaker?

Don't know why this got back some of us back then, but ...

That is a piggy back breaker.

Many manufacturers make half-width breakers so there can be two breaker side-by-side, whereas those Square D ones are piggy-backed in tandem fashion.

Just got back, went to an electrician, had lunch with him. He gave a breaker looks just like the one in the picture.

On one side is a sticker, with these word printed on it: "FOR REPLACEMENT
USE ONLY NOT CTL ASSEMBLIES.

Now I have question, the used of this breaker violation of the electrical
panel U.L. listing and MFG. instruction?

Was the panel listed for use with tandems? What was the model number?

Tandem breakers are used all the time when there is no room for expansion.
Also known as piggy-back breakers or wafer breakers. They are for retro-fit only to add an additional circuit or two, but if expansion is beyond the one or two an electrician would probably recommend adding a sub panel.

Did you read the panel index to determine how many circuits the manufactuer rated it for? By installing piggy-back breakers, the rated capacity may have been exceeded.

Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison

Just got back, went to an electrician, had lunch with him. He gave a breaker looks just like the one in the picture.

On one side is a sticker, with these word printed on it: "FOR REPLACEMENT
USE ONLY NOT CTL ASSEMBLIES.

Now I have question, the used of this breaker violation of the electrical
panel U.L. listing and MFG. instruction?

Depends.

How old is the panel?

Panels prior to 1965 are now considered non-CTL panels as they did not have any "Circuit Total Limiting" (CTL) features, while panels manufactured in 1965 and later have circuit total limiting features and are known as CTL panels.

I should clarify - the 1965 date is NEC which ushered in the circuit total limiting requirements, so the manufacturing change-over probably began in in 1962-63 and at least by 1964.

Those breakers, labeled FOR NON_CTL REPLACEMENT ONLY means they are allowed to be installed in non-CTL panels, i.e., panels around 1965 and older.

They are not allowed to be installed for replacements in CTL panels (panels 1965 and newer).

Now, though, is it really a problem? One of the reasons given for not being allowed to use those breakers in the newer CTL panels is that adding more circuits adds more load (current) through the bus bars, more than the bus bars were designed, intended or rated for.

I disagree with the thought process and basis behind that thinking - here is why: Those panels will have a main breaker protecting the bus bars, either in those panels (making them "service equipment") or before those panels (making them just "panels") and PROVIDED that the bus bars are protected by properly sized main breakers - which is one thing we as home inspectors look for - then there is NO WAY the bus bars can have excess current through them REGARDLESS HOW MANY CIRCUITS are installed ... install too many breakers ... all fully loaded ... and the main breaker protecting the panel will trip before the bus bars are overloaded.

It really is that simple. Which means THAT reason is not a legitimate reason.

HOWEVER, as with all listed and labeled electrical equipment, it must be used in accordance with its listing and labeling, and if the panel is a CTL panel then those breakers are not allowed. As simple as that.

Remember, CTL stands for "CIRCUIT Total Limiting" ... CTL *does not* stand for "CURRENT Total Limiting".

With the 2008 NEC the 42 circuit LIMITATION went out - the following is the 2008 NEC section regarding the maximum number of overcurrent devices in a panel:
- 408.54 Maximum Number of Overcurrent Devices.
- - A panelboard shall be provided with physical means to prevent the installation of more overcurrent devices than that number for which the panelboard was designed, rated, and listed.
- - For the purposes of this section, a 2-pole circuit breaker or fusible switch shall be considered two overcurrent devices; a 3-pole circuit breaker or fusible switch shall be considered three overcurrent devices.

The new panels, manufactured to the new standard, will still be CTL (circuit total limiting) panels, but will be circuit total limiting to the number of breakers THAT panel is tested, listed, and labeled for (which is what applied to every panel which had less than 42 breakers anyway, now it also applies for panels with 50-60-70-80 breakers ... just means one must READ THE LABEL).

The magic number 42 maximum number of overcurrent devices as vanished into thin air.

Thanks Jerry for that bit of useful information

Originally Posted by Jon Randolph

I have seen the skinny space saver type breakers before, but never one of these.


Is this just another type of double breaker?

I am in need of this style breaker and am having a devil of a time finding some. Any one out there have the model or catalog # or a location to purchase?

Thanx

Sledge Hammer? Wasn't that the name of an old ABC tv series? And also a Peter Gabriel song......terrible song at that.

Is the OCPD in the OP a precursor to the newer Square D breakers that allow 2 conductors under one screw, or is this something completely different?

Originally Posted by chris mcintyre

Is the OCPD in the OP a precursor to the newer Square D breakers that allow 2 conductors under one screw, or is this something completely different?

It is much different. Two independent 15 amp breakers.

Originally Posted by sledge hammer

I am in need of this style breaker and am having a devil of a time finding some. Any one out there have the model or catalog # or a location to purchase?

Thanx

This might be what you are looking for:

Square D QOT1515 Tandem 15 Amp QOT Circuit Breaker - eBay (item 290096292544 end time Aug-30-10 21:08:29 PDT)

Originally Posted by John Kogel

It is much different. Two independent 15 amp breakers.

Didn't see the 2 handles at first, but after looking at JD's link and a little Ctrl ++++ with the OP pic, now I see it. Thanks John...and James.