Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Corinth MS
    Posts
    14

    Default Bundling in panel board

    I ran across this today while installing a GFCI protected over-current "breaker". While this made finding the neutral a bit of a chore I eventually found it and then set my mind to thinking how this would have to be a wrong install of conductors. I am wanting to recommend separating the conductors to the the home owner because of the potential heat issues but am having a bit of a time finding code reference. Have you guys ever run across this before? 20150930_110957.jpg

    Similar Threads:
    Member Benefits1

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Bundling, per se, and in and of itself, in the panel is usually not an issue as the bundling length is typically less than 24".

    That said, though, ... CRIMENY!

    The problem I see is the twisting the conductors. As current flows through the conductors, a magnetic field builds up then collapses, and as it does, it creates impedance, and the way those are wrapped, the impedance created could ... could ... create an impedance (resistance) to the flow of the current and "choke" the current down.

    Admittedly, I doubt the "choke coil" effect will 'dramatically' affect the current flow, but I suspect that 'it will' affect the current flow - in a negative manner.

    Whoever was trying to be 'neat' really messed that one up.

    Yes, recommend the conductors be separated.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Lansdale, PA
    Posts
    876

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Looks like a tamper-proof panel to me. Who would want to work on that?


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    Looks like a tamper-proof panel to me.
    I dunno ... looks like someone already "tampered" with it to me.

    The more ways things are made 'idiot-proof' the more ways 'idiots' find to defeat those protections.

    Like computers and those infamous ID-10-T errors ... ID10T ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,394

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Shor is purty, but I agree with you and Jerry.

    The electrician was likely really proud of that and the extra time involved.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Maryland, DC, and Northern Virginia, electrical only
    Posts
    116

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Hendrix View Post
    I ran across this today while installing a GFCI protected over-current "breaker". While this made finding the neutral a bit of a chore I eventually found it and then set my mind to thinking how this would have to be a wrong install of conductors. I am wanting to recommend separating the conductors to the the home owner because of the potential heat issues but am having a bit of a time finding code reference. Have you guys ever run across this before? 20150930_110957.jpg
    I have not. Bundling conductors in a panelboard normally very slightly impairs heat dissipation and slightly increases the difficulty of identifying which conductor is which. OTOH, it makes it a bit easier to navigate the wiring channel and even to move breakers in and out. This? I can't see the slightest reason for separating hots and returns other than ignorant cuteness.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Jerry, On the choking issue you are right in a sense but the effect would be so minimal at 60 Hz as to be hard to even measure. Chokes at 60 Hz are really large even when wound on a toroid.

    Technically you are not supposed to run a ground wire through a metal conduit either for much the same reason. The leading edge of a lightning stroke is nearly vertical, being composed of many, very high, frequencies, and even the little bit of metal conduit acts as a choke at those frequencies.

    On the subject of "neat" panels, I encountered a nearly full 40 slot panel yesterday where each and every neutral and ground wire actually had its own lug. A first for me. State inspectors don't seem to object to the multiple conductors using one lug in Minnesota.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Maryland, DC, and Northern Virginia, electrical only
    Posts
    116

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Brown View Post
    State inspectors don't seem to object to the multiple conductors using one lug in Minnesota.
    Are they multi-hats or straight electrical? (he asks, disturbed.) Do they have CE requirements? If it's of interest to you, I'll ask around for someone who knows of a court case where this listing violation has led to an expensive court case.


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Brown View Post
    Technically you are not supposed to run a ground wire through a metal conduit either for much the same reason.
    Unless both ends of the metal conduit are connected to the GEC, then it is okay as it becomes a parallel path.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by david shapiro View Post
    Are they multi-hats or straight electrical?
    I am a multi-hat code inspector ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Maryland, DC, and Northern Virginia, electrical only
    Posts
    116

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    - - - Updated - - -



    I am a multi-hat code inspector ...
    This has what to do with Minnesota?


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Quote Originally Posted by david shapiro View Post
    This has what to do with Minnesota?
    And what does being a multi-hat inspector have to do with doing good code inspections?

    Nothing.

    So my reply fit right in with your reply - neither had anything to do with what it was responding to.

    Got it?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Unless both ends of the metal conduit are connected to the GEC, then it is okay as it becomes a parallel path.
    Both ends of a metallic conduit around a GEC are required to be bonded.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Both ends of a metallic conduit around a GEC are required to be bonded.
    Agreed and understood.

    I was responding to the following, and metal conduit would not create a choke effect when both ends of the metal conduit are bonded to the GEC ... thus my presumption that Marshall was thinking of a metal conduit not bonded to the GEC at both ends.

    However, I am now wondering if Marshall meant flexible metal conduit as that could create a choke effect when bonded at each end as the spike flowing through the spiral wrapped flexible metal conduit around the GEC conductor.

    Marshall was not clear with what he was intending, as such, I may have made an incorrect presumption of what he was referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Brown View Post
    Technically you are not supposed to run a ground wire through a metal conduit either for much the same reason.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Anybody see the conductor not attached to a breaker?
    Yes, it is sitting up there like a cobra ready to strike. It's not 'hot' (theoretically, anyway, as it is not attached to a breaker, but there is nothing preventing it from becoming 'hot' either.

    I am at a lose as to why you would have anything done this way and have never seen bundling that excessive.
    While that is, technically, "bundling', I don't concern myself too much with it (with regard to heating and bundling) as it is less than 24 inches long - the code does not address derating until the bundling - and lack of maintaining spacing, even if not "bundled" - is longer than 24 inches.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    If you unwrapped the spiral i bet it would be more than 24".

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bundling in panel board

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    If you unwrapped the spiral i bet it would be more than 24".
    Very well could be, but ... I am not going to unwrap it to find out ... let the electrical contractor fix the wrapping (unwrap it) and that part of the problem is solved.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •