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  1. #1
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    Question Imbedded Meter Base

    Meter Base embedded in Bedford stone siding. Mast coming through roof with opening in top of flashing wrap?
    Am I missing something or is this just wrong? I can't imaging the AHJ going along with this in 1961.
    Your Input is appreciated.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Missing a slope roof deck electric service mast flashing boot.
    The type of sloped roof deck flashing is as common as heart burn after a chilli cook off.

    As for the meter.
    If the meter visible fully visible from all angles and can be accessed by a licensed electrician, I see it as serviceable, ouch what a word, but others might have more to say on the matter.

    Good luck.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    First, that flashing, at a minimum, needs to be clamped and sealed to the mast at its top - right now, all the flashing does is guide the water running down the mast into the roof area ... I can imagine there is wood decay, rot, and water damage in that area where you cannot see it.

    Secondly, in exterior locations, those enclosure are designed and intended (and required by codes) to surface mounted with a minimum 1/4 inch air space between the back of the enclosure and the surface behind the enclosure - the enclosures are even made with little dimpled mounting feet which provide that 1/4 inch air space by holding the back of the enclosure out from the surface it is mounted to by that 1/4 inch.

    I'm not saying that will be corrected, but at least it would be in your report and the next seller (your client as buyer) won't be able to come back to you and say that their buyer's inspector said ... (you can respond with 'Yep, it's in the report and we discussed it, I guess you elected not to have it corrected.' ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I can imagine there is wood decay, rot, and water damage in that area where you cannot see it.

    I'm not saying that will be corrected, but at least it would be in your report and the next seller (your client as buyer) won't be able to come back to you and say that their buyer's inspector said ... (you can respond with 'Yep, it's in the report and we discussed it, I guess you elected not to have it corrected.' ...
    I am sure...No posative the roofer did the right thing during their long site safety talk at the tavern for lunch about what to do in the case of the mast and flashing after the rip off was completed.
    The Forman," Men, if there was rotted wood, it is concealed so everyone is not aware of it." Everyone Not In Agreement Pays the next round and has to clean up the lawn and run the truck to the dump after work.
    Highly organized. Alll diplomatic and done through democratically Jerry. Simple as that.

    Now these safety discussions can go on all day, or so I have heard from a reliable source that drove my car home seeing I was unable to do so safely.

    I would recommend plastic cement at the top instead of crimping the galvanized flange at the mast. You never know the condition of the metal and you might be left replacing it after all.

    This type of mast flashing produces good results.
    MAST BOOT FLASHING.JPG

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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I would recommend plastic cement at the top instead of crimping the galvanized flange at the mast. You never know the condition of the metal and you might be left replacing it after all.
    Plastic roof cement will not do the job by itself, it will just gradually seep down into the gap - at least (as I said) clamp the top ... that closes the gap, then it gets sealed (which I also said "needs to be clamped and sealed to the mast at its top").

    Also presuming that who ever does that work is smart enough to recognize that the mast 'moves' and the flashing should not be 'pulled tight', that they are smart enough to push the lead down some and leave some flexibility in it so the vertical part is not pulled out of its base crimp ... of course, that presume a lot for the handyman or contractor who gets that call ... presuming they are smart enough ... is a big statement and a big presumption.

    This type of mast flashing produces good results.
    MAST BOOT FLASHING.JPG
    Until the rubber rots/dries/cracks/splits ... which is (from my experience) a lot quicker than those lead flashings deteriorate.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Thumbs down Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Jerry, Thanks for the response and assurance I wasn't missing something here. Usually if something looks wrong it turns out being wrong.
    I reported that with the funnel they installed as a flashing boot the water they are collecting is now going into the wall system since the meter base is embedded. I also reported on the clearances that are typical for these meter bases.
    The electrician also added a 60 amp disconnect off the main panel (pushmatic Bulldog) tapping onto each side of the bus bar and servicing a 100 amp panel in the barn, using #6 wire. Plus all the breakers were single pole 30's with 14 gauge wiring connected.
    The guy was buying the house for the barn to have all his toys, compressor, welder etc, and looked good until we opened the panel.
    It's always amazing to me the effort people exert to do it wrong. But somebody was proud of their job when they finished and moved on.


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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Plastic roof cement will not do the job by itself, it will just gradually seep down into the gap - at least (as I said) clamp the top ... that closes the gap, then it gets sealed (which I also said "needs to be clamped and sealed to the mast at its top").

    Also presuming that who ever does that work is smart enough to recognize that the mast 'moves' and the flashing should not be 'pulled tight', that they are smart enough to push the lead down some and leave some flexibility in it so the vertical part is not pulled out of its base crimp ... of course, that presume a lot for the handyman or contractor who gets that call ... presuming they are smart enough ... is a big statement and a big presumption.



    Until the rubber rots/dries/cracks/splits ... which is (from my experience) a lot quicker than those lead flashings deteriorate.
    I do not like crimping older metal.
    If the surface appears in good condition maybe, but all in all the image shows that the circumference is small.

    There are thicknesses of plastic cement.
    Even fibered plastic cement.
    Summer grade plastic would run but winter grade or fibered plastic cement would do the trick.
    If one wanted to close or seal the gap they could use window doweling then apply copious amounts of plastic cement.

    I concur about the lead.
    Yes the rubber rots on flange boot but lead I suspect is hard to acquire and to expensive.
    I use to buy 100 pound roles for flashing all types of openings and components on roofs and brick detail.

    To use a defense that rubber rots/dries/cracks/splits, is to admit even the beer they drink runs out, and that is why they manufacture more.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 03-16-2016 at 07:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I concur about the lead.
    Yes the rubber rots on flange boot but lead I suspect is hard to acquire and to expensive.
    I use to buy 100 pound roles for flashing all types of openings and components on roofs and brick detail.
    That's lead in the photo.

    Would anyone use any other plastic roof cement than fibered?

    Its all softens and sags.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    That's lead in the photo.
    Its all softens and sags.
    I thought it was a galvanized sleeve.
    Then crimp it.

    There are many grades of plastic cement as you well know.
    As for utilizing winter grade plastic cement on a roof deck protrusion. Winter Grade Plastic Cement

    My first use of plastic was in 1977 at a GM car plant, over the paint shop
    There were over 20 towering vet stacks with 4 guide wires bolted to the roof deck to support each stack.
    Each guide and anchor had to be galvanized boxed, a pan, stripped 6 times, 5 with felt the last with fabric and each pan filled with plastic cement.
    Over 50 5 gallon pails and the foreman said use my hands and wash them later with gasoline.
    I did.

    I watched as 2 men suffered heat strokes.
    One the real thing.

    As for sagging, you buy the grade you require to work with.
    It all depends upon the temperature. There are grades of plastic cement.
    I can safely say I have used hundreds of 5 gallon pails of plastic in my day doing construction.
    It is a common sealing agent.

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    As for sagging, you buy the grade you require to work with.
    It all depends upon the temperature. There are grades of plastic cement.
    I can safely say I have used hundreds of 5 gallon pails of plastic in my day doing construction.
    It is a common sealing agent.
    It is a common sealing agent, and I have yet to see a type which does not sag with heat.

    You describe what we call 'pitch pans' for flashing items, and, when it gets hot, the plastic roof cement which fills the 'pitch pan' flashing and is supposed to be be filled to the top rim of the pan and then slope upward to permit water run-off ... will ... over the years ... shrink ... and sag.

    It shrinks back from the pipe/mast/guy wire/etc as the solvents gradually escape from the plastic roof cement, this leaves a gap around the item into which the sealant sags and fills up. Less gap around smaller items like guy wires, larger gaps around vent stacks and masts. And, as it shrinks, it pulls back from the edges of the pan, which allows for more sagging. The built-up-to-a-slope also shrinks down.

    Over the years, if the hole through the deck is not sealed with felt or other solid material, the sealant will also sag down through the hole - a major mistake often made is to not install that felt or other solid material to fill the gap around the penetrating item ... this allows the sealant to sag down through the gap.

    Sealing around guy wires (smaller drilled holes which typically have washers placed over them) allows for much smaller gaps for the sealant to sag through, which leaves the effect mostly from shrinkage.

    Question to all - how many have seen those flashings (usually used on flat or low slope roofs) which are full with a sloping top to shed water?
    - (Other than newly installed ones, and even then, do you find them full with a sloped top?)
    - (Should I have asked how many have seen them not full with no slope top? )

    Next question to all - how many have stopped to look at them and see the gaps, shrinkage, etc?


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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It is a common sealing agent, and I have yet to see a type which does not sag with heat.

    Next question to all - how many have stopped to look at them and see the gaps, shrinkage, etc?
    Good observation, but working with this common sealant regularly throughout the decades, and under extreme temperatures and weather conditions, the grade and brand of the product can equate to sag and performance.
    I have maintained many roofs membranes, one in particular, 40 year old BUR system on a commercial roof, and can attest first hand to see no sagging, even under sidewall flashing metal.

    As for shrinkage cracks, Professional roofing installers & Roofing associations recommend that asphalt roofing systems, sloped or flat, be evaluated by a licensed certified professional and maintained on an annual basis, this includes roof tune-ups when required. The life of your roof is directly related to how often it is inspected, and how quickly small problems are identified and repaired.

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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Good observation, but working with this common sealant regularly throughout the decades, and under extreme temperatures and weather conditions, the grade and brand of the product can equate to sag and performance.
    I have maintained many roofs membranes, one in particular, 40 year old BUR system on a commercial roof, and can attest first hand to see no sagging, even under sidewall flashing metal.
    And what temperature environments have those roofs been in?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    And what temperature environments have those roofs been in?
    Jerry, I worked the trades, most trade facets for 35 years. Too many times plastic cement is used as a go to adhesive.

    As for when did I personally use plastic cement?
    For over 4 decades.
    From newly applied hot mopped BUR systems on a 115 F summer days after the fabric was applied to protrusions or stripped curbs and boxes, to minus -15F on new BUR roof systems or old roof systems.
    Most temperatures you could think of including inclimate weather during all seasons to seal leaks.

    I worked as a licensed special maneuver to a B class roofer on new and existing commercial and residential construction for many years, ops decades.

    Many times I would be sent out with the maintenance crews for roof tuneups or with my own company using plastic cement to tune up asphalt or other flat or sloped roofing systems.

    When you removing flashing you get a fist hand look at the hottest part of the roofing system and what plastic cement endures and rarely did I observed sagging plastic cement. I saw sag but not many times.

    Sorry for the edits.
    3 Windows 10 Pro updates and one Windows malicious malware update has been dogging my Surface Pro II of over twenty-four hours. You think that could be what Gerry 's long load times combined with your observation Jerry?

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 03-21-2016 at 01:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Robert,

    You missing the entire concept being discussed, no problem.

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    Default Re: Imbedded Meter Base

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert,

    You missing the entire concept being discussed, no problem.

    You asked, "And what temperature environments have those roofs been in?"

    As explained, under every environmental condition. Hot, cold, dry and wet.

    Bur roof asphalt is 550F. The organic 15 pound perforated felt membrane is built by mopping plies of felt as you know. The roof is 350 F by the time I stripped boxes and curbs and I had burns on my hands and arms as proof.
    I applied plastic cement directly to the hot BUR roof membrane striped curbs and striped protrusions once the stripping was completed behind the mop and paper man.
    If plastic would run or sag, I would tool it back in place before I left the job which rarely happened.
    That being said; I highly doubt the roof environment, the surroundings of a physical system that may interact with the system by exchanging mass, energy, or other properties would ever reach that environmental state again to allow the plastic to sag.

    Hope that helps.

    .








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