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  1. #1
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    Default Sub Panel Ground

    FPE, Schneider Electric, 112-24 stab-lok.
    Locate the ground conductor on a sub panel.
    The subpanel must absolutely have ground back to the main panel.
    Safety switch service disconnect.
    sub panel.JPG
    Ground terminal bar below.
    stab-loc ground terminal bar.JPG
    Renovated Kitchen had grounded outlets.
    Suspect floating ground. Run an individual ground conductor from the green grounding terminal of a grounded receptacle to the nearest water pipe or other grounded object. This “floating ground” presents various hazards.

    Thanks!

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    sub panel2.JPG
    Robert
    Is this not the grounding conductor at the red arrow? I can't see where it terminates so I can't make any guess past that...

    Alton Darty
    ATN Services, LLC
    www.arinspections.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Alton Darty View Post
    sub panel2.JPG
    Robert
    Is this not the grounding conductor at the red arrow? I can't see where it terminates so I can't make any guess past that...
    Thanks Alton.
    I am not sure as well. Very limited space.
    I recommend an electrician.
    I will review this on Mike Holt's site.

    Thanks again!

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    If that is the groundING conductor - where is the insulated groundED conductor?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Thanks Alton.
    I am not sure as well. Very limited space.
    I recommend an electrician.
    I will review this on Mike Holt's site.

    Thanks again!
    A neutral bar requires isolation.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Does not appear to have a four wire feed to the panel. I cannot see a neutral or grounded conductor, or even the neutral bar. I am hoping that there is a neutral bar just out of the photo with an neutral attached and that the grounding conductor from what appears to be SE cable is not attached to the neutral bar...

    Alton Darty
    ATN Services, LLC
    www.arinspections.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If that is the groundING conductor - where is the insulated groundED conductor?
    I was hoping you would chime in.
    You are correct.

    I explained in a past post, I was told not to open dead fronts but that will not be the case any longer as you can see.
    First FPE subpanel.
    I will remember this lesson well.

    I hypothesized a floated a ground. Likely off the plumbing. The kitchen was recently renovated..
    The split 240 AL feed appeared OK. No drop Vd. One AL neutral. Last on the right lower neutral bar.

    I questioned myself. the ungrounded outlets and other service equipment had me perplexed.
    Thanks!
    Much appreciated.

    Doing a full review on Mike Holt Enterprises
    I will visit your site as well Jerry.
    Alton, thanks for chiming in.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Robert,

    That feeder to the remote panel (I posted photos of what a sub panel looks like) is required to have ... at least here in the States .... a grounding conductor (which can be insulated, bare, or covered) and a separate insulated grounded conductor (the neutral).

    SE cable does not have a separate insulated grounded conductor - that bare conductor serves as the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor.

    Proper feeder conductors need to be installed (with that SE cable abandoned such that it will not be accidentally energized in the future).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert,

    That feeder to the remote panel (I posted photos of what a sub panel looks like) is required to have ... at least here in the States .... a grounding conductor (which can be insulated, bare, or covered) and a separate insulated grounded conductor (the neutral).

    SE cable does not have a separate insulated grounded conductor - that bare conductor serves as the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor.

    Proper feeder conductors need to be installed (with that SE cable abandoned such that it will not be accidentally energized in the future).
    Thanks.
    The cable is not SE.

    Bare with me Jerry or anyone else wishing to see how self confidence eroded.

    Have you ever listened to someone's recommendation and said to yourself afterwards, that was not the best recommendation I should follow, but you do blindly due to what this man achieved. Not much in my opinion but others disagreed.
    I must not listen to others until I see validity!
    I am so mad at myself I could spit.

    Long story but the end result was what I suspected all along.
    By not practising what I did without second thought I lost MY self a solid routine of defect recognition.
    How? By letting someone else's recommendation affect my decision making.

    The RE yesterday said to me Robert, every inspector I associate with opens panel fronts.

    Yep, The cable is not SE.

    Just called the client. Amending the report. He is happy and so am I.

    Thanks big time!

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 03-24-2016 at 06:31 PM.
    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    This covers the neutral bar.
    neutral cable to neutral bar..JPG
    Missing SE cable.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Robert,,

    I was going to ask if that cable was SER (basically SE cable with an insulated neutral) - then I looked on your next post with the photo of the neutral conductor (black, not white) ...

    So now my question is: what are the feeder conductors? Cable? If not cable, what?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert,,

    I was going to ask if that cable was SER (basically SE cable with an insulated neutral) - then I looked on your next post with the photo of the neutral conductor (black, not white) ...

    So now my question is: what are the feeder conductors? Cable? If not cable, what?
    The remote panel was not installed by a licensed professional and all referrals to correct reported.
    It does not appear to be AL SER style R cable, which is used for on ground service cable but I am finishing 2 reports and well get back later.

    Thanks as always.
    Hopefully, this will not happen again.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post

    I explained in a past post, I was told not to open dead fronts but that will not be the case any longer as you can see.
    We got the word in BC a few years ago that as home inspectors, not electricians, we are not authorized to open electrical panels.
    WorkSafeBC, which used to be the Worker's Compensation Board, does not approve of us opening panels.
    However, other govt bodies recognize that home inspectors find defects that would otherwise go unreported or missed until there was an incident.

    Our association, CAHPI(BC) kicked this issue around for a few months. The upshot was that we should continue to open panels because it is the proper way to inspect a home. We are not permitted to perform work inside a panel of course, and would be foolish to do so. In addition, in BC, if we are hurt while opening the panel, we will receive no compensation from WorksafeBC for damages to ourselves, so there is a risk which we take every time.

    Having said that, the wiring of the remote or 'sub' panel is one area that should never be passed over lightly. We find more wiring faults in 'subs' than anywhere. As in the US, there must be a 4-wire feed from the main, and the neutral bus must not be bonded. Even in new construction, that stinking screw will be left in there sometimes.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    As in the US, there must be a 4-wire feed from the main, and the neutral bus must not be bonded. Even in new construction, that stinking screw will be left in there sometimes.
    Interesting difference from how it's down in the lower 51: I've installed many brands and styles of
    panelboards and I don't remember purchasing any, either main breaker or main lug, that came with the main bonding screw or other jumper pre-installed. Always something I had to attach myself.

    Possibly, in this litigious country, manufacturers are more afraid than they are in the civil north of being blamed when someone leaves a subpanel neutral bonded (in the same building).


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert,,

    I was going to ask if that cable was SER (basically SE cable with an insulated neutral) - then I looked on your next post with the photo of the neutral conductor (black, not white) ...

    So now my question is: what are the feeder conductors? Cable? If not cable, what?
    Sorry only getting back to this now and for the edit.

    I could only identify 2 service conductors entering the remote panel. There was no common sheath.
    It was not until I zoomed in on the interior of the remote looking for the feeder cables that I noticed the black cable on the isolated neutral bus that should be identified with white tape.
    That makes three cables but I still do not know the third SE was feed into the remote.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 04-09-2016 at 09:57 PM.
    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by david shapiro View Post
    Interesting difference from how it's down in the lower 51: I've installed many brands and styles of
    panelboards and I don't remember purchasing any, either main breaker or main lug, that came with the main bonding screw or other jumper pre-installed. Always something I had to attach myself.

    Possibly, in this litigious country, manufacturers are more afraid than they are in the civil north of being blamed when someone leaves a subpanel neutral bonded (in the same building).
    Others have covered everything I would have to say pertinent to the electrical issues... but I have to ask "down in the lower 51?"
    I understand lower 48 but 51? did we gain a star while I was napping?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Sub Panel Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    did we gain a star while I was napping?
    I think it was in reference to (Puerto Rico) or even wishful thinking that Canada will represent the fifty-first star one day:-) But I do not think we will let go of Medicare so that's not in the cards anytime soon. Poor Obama.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
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