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Thread: 110V Service ?

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    Default 110V Service ?

    Can somebody tell me what's going on with this panel and why it's wired this way. This is a sub panel for a condo. The service breaker is on the other side of the room.



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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    The panel is fed by 120 only. The small red jumper is powering the second leg of the panel.

    I do not see a grounding conductor for the panel.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: 120V Service ?

    NOTE: 120 volt ... not 110 volt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Can somebody tell me what's going on with this panel and why it's wired this way.
    Someone had no idea what they were doing and followed through with doing it that way ...

    ... condo. The service breaker is on the other side of the room.
    If it is a condo, the breaker on the other side of the room is not the service breaker (as in 'is not the service disconnect'), that breaker may be a 'panel main' (which I like as it allows the entire panel to be shut down with one disconnect, but that breaker would not be the 'service breaker').

    The main disconnect for the condo is not a 'service disconnect' as the service disconnect disconnects power to the entire building, not just the one condo, which means that the grounded neutral conductor is isolated from ground in the condo panel.

    The grounded neutral conductor is also isolated from ground in the condo disconnect panel (unless the condo disconnect panel is part of the service equipment for up to a 5 unit condo, leaving one disconnect for the house panel).

    I don't see a ground going to that panel.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 04-21-2016 at 12:13 PM. Reason: I was typing while Jim posted, I duplicated his last comment.
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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    A little more information, the jumper breaker on the left side is a 20 amp; the jumper breaker on the right side is a 15 amp. The breakers above the right side jumper are all 20 amp and servicing the kitchen.

    The panel shown is connected to the unit's main service panel through metal conduit.

    There is no main disconnect for the building. 9 separate meter, one for each of the 8 units and one for the house lights. Each meter has it's own 100 amp disconnect. Each disconnect is wired to corresponding remote panels on the opposite side of the room.

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 04-21-2016 at 12:19 PM.
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    Default Re: 120V Service ?

    This is why I hate this forum. One line stating "Someone had no idea what they were doing and followed through with doing it that way ... " but not explaining why it's wrong and 4 paragraphs correcting my verbiage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    NOTE: 120 volt ... not 110 volt ...



    Someone had no idea what they were doing and followed through with doing it that way ...



    If it is a condo, the breaker on the other side of the room is not the service breaker (as in 'is not the service disconnect'), that breaker may be a 'panel main' (which I like as it allows the entire panel to be shut down with one disconnect, but that breaker would not be the 'service breaker').

    The main disconnect for the condo is not a 'service disconnect' as the service disconnect disconnects power to the entire building, not just the one condo, which means that the grounded neutral conductor is isolated from ground in the condo panel.

    The grounded neutral conductor is also isolated from ground in the condo disconnect panel (unless the condo disconnect panel is part of the service equipment for up to a 5 unit condo, leaving one disconnect for the house panel).

    I don't see a ground going to that panel.


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    Default Re: 120V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    This is why I hate this forum. One line stating "Someone had no idea what they were doing and followed through with doing it that way ... " but not explaining why it's wrong and 4 paragraphs correcting my verbiage.
    Ken,

    I thought there was no need to explain that running that red conductor across in front of the live bus was a no-no.

    There are other things which are not shown in the photo, such as no grounding busing at the metal conduit (which is not shown, but you later clarified was there) into the enclosure - is one needed (probably).

    There there is that red conductor crossing over the live bus bar - #12 AWG? And it is supplying power to the other buss with those four breakers feeding off it? You didn't question the ampacity of that red conductor and its breaker as being able to feed those 4 circuits it feeds? Just curious.

    I then went on to explain some things you should have found in the other panel - the panel NOT SHOWN ... just as a heads up. Guess that is a no-no for future posts by you?

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    Default Re: 120V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    This is why I hate this forum. One line stating "Someone had no idea what they were doing and followed through with doing it that way ... " but not explaining why it's wrong and 4 paragraphs correcting my verbiage.
    Your question was a bit vague, and I think the how it is wired is pretty obvious. Why people choose to do stupid thinks with wiring is hard to answer.


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    Default Re: 120V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    Why people choose to do stupid thinks with wiring is hard to answer.
    To coin a great intellectual Forst Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    This is why I hate this forum. One line stating "Someone had no idea what they were doing and followed through with doing it that way ... " but not explaining why it's wrong and 4 paragraphs correcting my verbiage.
    Ken, it took me but a short time to recognize I could learn so much if I visited and got involved.
    Even when I put my foot in my mouth, which happens from time to time, Gees Louise more than I care to admit, I reflect, accept humility, and get back in the thread because there is nothing to lose and everything to gain.
    All swell guys and gals with so much to offer.
    Bet you are a NACHI MB survivor.

    All the best.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 04-21-2016 at 05:05 PM.
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    Default Re: 120V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    This is why I hate this forum. One line stating "Someone had no idea what they were doing and followed through with doing it that way ... " but not explaining why it's wrong and 4 paragraphs correcting my verbiage.
    You dare question the Great and Powerful Oz? The Great and Powerful Oz knows why you have come!

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    Default Re: 120V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Payson View Post
    You dare question the Great and Powerful Oz? The Great and Powerful Oz knows why you have come!
    Even that man behind the curtain needs to know what is being asked - a reasonable question is too much to ask for?

    Ken asked "and why it's wired this way"

    The great and powerful Mark had a good answer: "Why people choose to do stupid thinks with wiring is hard to answer."

    Then Robert summed it all up: " To coin a great intellectual Forst Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does." "

    Scarecrow

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Jerry, I've always appreciated the vast wealth of information you possess, I just like to bust you from time to time

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    little people.JPG
    What you mean there no such a thing as a sub-panel!

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    When I submitted the picture to an electrician friend of mine and my original question,
    Can somebody tell me what's going on with this panel and why it's wired this way.
    he gave me the answer:

    The feeder panel lost power on the right side due to (most likely) a faulty wire or main disconnect. Somebody, possibly even an electrician on an emergency service call, added the jumper giving power to the breakers above the jumpers on the right side. The fix will be tracing and correcting the problem to the power feed.

    This is exactly what I expected the problem was...and I called it out in the inspection report before I even posted it here. I was only looking for confirmation. However, I should know better than to expect a direct answer from this site.

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    Default Re: 120V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post


    Ken, it took me but a short time to recognize I could learn so much if I visited and got involved.
    Robert, please look at my post count. It took me a while to recognize it's more efficient to ask someone who actually does the trade than to ask on here and get lectured instead of having my questions answered.

    I don't really care that the red wire is running across the power buss, I don't care that that 15 amp capacity jumper is feeding two 20 amp kitchen circuits, the disposal, dishwasher refrigerator, etc. I know it's wrong it's been called out on the inspection report and it's been referred to an electrician. I simply wanted to know why someone would have done this.

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    Default Re: 120V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ken asked "and why it's wired this way"

    The great and powerful Mark had a good answer: "Why people choose to do stupid thinks with wiring is hard to answer."

    Then Robert summed it all up: " To coin a great intellectual Forst Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does." "

    Scarecrow
    Jerry's exactly right. I asked a direct question, and received no direct answer, even from him. This is why I don't come around much anymore.

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    Post Re: 120V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Jerry's exactly right. I asked a direct question, and received no direct answer, even from him. This is why I don't come around much anymore.
    I concur with everything you have said except for, I asked a direct question and received no direct answer, even from him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Can somebody tell me what's going on with this panel

    Someone had no idea what they were doing and followed through with doing it that way ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    why it's wired this way.
    Someone had no idea what they were doing and followed through with doing it that way ...

    Rapp'en Rodney.

    rodney.JPG


    Marc, the idea behind asking a question is to
    .
    1: Explain your misunderstanding.
    2: State what you know.
    3: State what you don't know.
    4: Sound confident.
    5:Have a come-back.

    I see you have #3,5 down pat but it would be recommended to use #2 to attach credibility.

    In the case where as you may be a NACHI MB survivor; I think a clinic is being opened soon to help meet the growing demand but I don't know when.
    So far it's only a rumour.

    I am perplexed, though, I see the ASHI seal on your website, hmmm?
    Marc, if I am mistaken about you being a NACHI MB survivor, please excuse me and give the NACHI MB a visit. I am quite certain you'll fit right in with several members there.
    Tell them I said hello with a big loud raspberry and give the other members my best regards!
    PS: Help spread the word about the clinic to the survivors.

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Hey Ken, before you go away, it is 120 volts in the USA.

    You other guys, any chance the conduit is providing grounding to the panel? Yep, I think it is.

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    You other guys, any chance the conduit is providing grounding to the panel? Yep, I think it is.
    That was not in the photo and was not mentioned in the original posted information/question ... that information was added after Jim and I made that comment - it is nice to have all the information up front.

    My question to Ken, regarding him asking and accepting his electricians answer is this:How long after that "emergency service call" did you make your inspection, and if not immediately after it ... how long is that "emergency repair" supposed to be allowed to remain?

    And this question: You did not question why, or include a mention of, that abandoned conductor was disconnected in the other panel (the panel for which no photo was provided). That information would have been very good to have shared with us.

    The photo shows that conductor removed at the LOAD end ... if that conductor IS NOT ALSO abandoned at the LINE end ... than that conductor IS STILL 'live' and energized inside the wall/conduit/wherever. You did not say your electrician pointed out that very real hazard.

    Final question: Was the other end of that conductor also abandoned at the other end in that other panel?

    Okay, one more question (depending on your answer to the above "Final question"): Why did you not tell us that?

    We are 'getting blamed' for not answering your question ... yet your question lacked a lot of pertinent information ... information which keeps coming up after the fact - that last part is common as one does not always know what information is needed when asking a question ... but not giving all the information and then blaming others for not being able to answer your question?

    Yes, I realize we are just .

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    It occurred to me last night that if the panel had been fed with a 240 volt breaker and one leg was disconnected at the breaker, then I would suspect that one leg may have shorted and was disconnected.


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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    It occurred to me last night that if the panel had been fed with a 240 volt breaker and one leg was disconnected at the breaker, then I would suspect that one leg may have shorted and was disconnected.
    But that would beg the question, and the looksee to find out ... is the other end of those conductors (the supply or 'line' end) was disconnected too ... but he has made no mention of that so far.

    Had he checked that, and provided that information, I suspect the entire discussion would have gone differently.

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Jerry,

    My original question to the forum was asking for a speculation as to why the panel was wired the way it was shown in the photo. The purpose of the question was to verify my original thoughts. I didn't ask you or anyone else to describe what was wrong with the panel.

    It doesn't matter that the jumper wire is running across the busbars, it doesn't matter what's being powered by the jumped busbar, it doesn't matter if there is a ground cable to the panel or not and it doesn't matter if the supply conductor is attached or not. I'm not going to write down every separate deficiency of the panel in the inspection report. I didn't give the forum all the information because it was not, and is not needed to answer the question I posed. And, I certainly don't need your help to tell me the obvious deficiencies easily viewed in the picture.

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Jerry,
    My original question to the forum was asking for a speculation to verify my original thoughts.
    Sorry, for the edits everyone.
    Kenneth, what were you hypothesizing? I am listing, really.

    Please give him a chance to explain. We all learn differently.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 04-23-2016 at 06:05 AM.
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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Jerry,

    My original question to the forum was asking for a speculation as to why the panel was wired the way it was shown in the photo.
    Ken,

    Your original question to the forum was this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Can somebody tell me what's going on with this panel and why it's wired this way.
    We addressed the "what's going on with this panel" part.

    We did not speculate on the "and why it's wired this way" other to comment on the unsafe hazard that it is and that someone would need to be crazy to do that.

    Your electrician speculated that it may have been from an emergency repair because of a bad feeder conductor, but ... he apparently did not recognize that the load end of the conductor being wire nutted off does not address any safety aspect as the line end of that conductor would need to be abandoned for that (address any safety aspect) to happen.

    You have still not stated whether or not that capped off wire was the only capped off wire, nor whether or not you looked in the other panel to see if that conductor was abandoned and capped off at the line (supply) end.

    The purpose of the question was to verify my original thoughts.
    If you had posed your original thoughts in your question, we would have know what you were thinking and would know the reason for your question.

    I didn't ask you or anyone else to describe what was wrong with the panel.
    Ah ... but you did, and we answered that part of your question.

    You apparently did not like our answers, and apparently your question was really only about the second part of your questions, the "and why it's wired this way" part.

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Hopefully, he will explain more and recognise his shortcomings.
    Ken, it is beneficial to be humble and recognise what weaknesses and strengths you have.
    Consider Jerry the Borg, so Resistance is futile.

    Want me to get the dead horse GIF illustration from one of the previous posts?

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Want me to get the dead horse GIF illustration from one of the previous posts?
    Robert,

    When you are typing a message in the text box - do you see those emoticons on the right? At the bottom of them is says "(More)", click on the "(More)" and another window with more of them, including the beating a dead horse, open to give you ... well ... "more" of them ... like this one:


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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert,
    When you are typing a message in the text box - do you see those emoticons on the right?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I thouAt the bottom of them is says "(More)", click on the "(More)" and another window with more of them, including the beating a dead horse, open to give you ... well ... "more" of them ... like this one:
    Just thinking aloud.

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Unfortunately Jerry likes to make things up. Argue things were said when they weren't. The electrician I spoke with didn't say this was safe to do...I never said this was safe to do.
    he apparently did not recognize that the load end of the conductor being wire nutted off does not address any safety aspect as the line end of that conductor would need to be abandoned for that (address any safety aspect) to happen.
    Not once did I ask anyone to tell me what's wrong with the panel.
    Ah ... but you did, and we answered that part of your question.
    What I asked was:
    Can somebody tell me what's going on with this panel and why it's wired this way.
    That's one sentence Jerry, not two. Nowhere does it ask anyone to tell me what's done incorrectly.
    You apparently did not like our answers,
    Right, because they weren't answers. They were flippant remarks that do nobody any good whatsoever.
    You have still not stated whether or not that capped off wire was the only capped off wire, nor whether or not you looked in the other panel to see if that conductor was abandoned and capped off at the line (supply) end.
    Of course I looked inside the service disconnect box Jerry. Don't you think I would have mentioned if the service conductor was disconnected inside the other panel also? But, as I said before, it doesn't matter if it was connected or not...it's wrong no matter how you look at it.
    If you had posed your original thoughts in your question, we would have know what you were thinking and would know the reason for your question.
    Because I wanted unadulterated opinions. Why would I submit my theory and possibly sway someone else's answer?

    Feel free to keep replying, but to continue arguing with you is pointless.

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Can somebody tell me what's going on with this panel and why it's wired this way
    Ken,

    That is one SENTENCE.

    That one sentence contains two QUESTIONS:

    1) "what is going on"

    2) "and why"

    Discussing this with you is, as you said, pointless - you keep trying to re-write the English language rules so that 1 + 1 = 1 .

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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Ken, I think it is clear that you could have worded your question better. If you were asking whether this is a 120 volts service, it may have confused some of us. What else could it be? I would not expect a home inspector to ask that question.


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    Default Re: 110V Service ?


    Hard to believe so much discussion over so little.

    Ken, I wondered where this thread was was headed for since you started with the 110v in the posting thread question. Then I was totally confused when I saw that you were not just making a joke out of your question and you were actually serious about an answer. Possibly that is what the entire ho-rang about not having your simple question answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Can somebody tell me what's going on with this panel and why it's wired this way.....
    I looked at your pict and said to my self there was a problem with one leg knocking out 3 or 4 of the 7 breakers and they wanted to watch The Andy Griffith Show . So, being a smart doodle they disconnected the "black" leg, for safety. Then seeing the the wires on breakers were to short to move them to he hot leg they did the next best and quickest thing and back feed the other breakers. Got a beer and watched their show.


    Ken, I like many assumed that you would know the answer to your question and it was just a rhetorical question. I apologize for all in the forum that failed to not see you were serious and wanted a narrative of the possible reasoning behind the the panel looking as it does. Not about right or wrong per code just a quick fix for a problem. Who ever did the quick fix was a not stupid since he knew that it would work and solve the immediate problem a MacGyver move ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGyver ) If some were to attest to it being a permanent solution, then I would agree they are stupid.


    The short answer by way of "Larry The Cable Guy " , " GitRdone..." my beer is getting warm.


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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Question & observations.
    1: With a modification, not code compliant, how do we know the black leg is safely disconnected unless it was followed to the source?
    2: You hypothesize one leg knocking out 3 or 4 of the 7 breakers.
    Is it 3 or 4?
    3: Is moving the hot leg with a small gauge conductor over the power bus thinking twice reasonably?
    4: As for someone knowing how to solve a problem with a quick fix, I disagree.
    They did not know how to work reasonably or safely.

    As to the OP knowing electrical service and what follows, I concur.

    I remember when I drank beer.
    It left me with too many emotions and not thinking clearly and but I hated it warm. It still was fun, or so I thought at the time.

    Just having fun Garry.
    I thought you covered all the emotions, so no use me putting one up.
    Ops, I had to Two:-)

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    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
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    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    ..... what's going on with this panel and why it's wired this way......
    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Question & observations.
    1: With a modification, not code compliant, how do we know the black leg is safely disconnected unless it was followed to the source?
    2: You hypothesize one leg knocking out 3 or 4 of the 7 breakers.
    Is it 3 or 4?
    3: Is moving the hot leg with a small gauge conductor over the power bus thinking twice reasonably?
    4: As for someone knowing how to solve a problem with a quick fix, I disagree.
    They did not know how to work reasonably or safely.


    1) Black leg being safely disconnected was not part of the OP question.
    2) Sorry, it is either 4 or 3 out of the 7 breakers, my mistake. Had it backwards.
    3) It is insulated. Would be different with a bare wire.
    4) Working reasonably or safely not part of the OP question.

    The OP was "... what's going on and why? ..." I took it as to why it looks the way it does and what was it supposed to accomplish. Not what are the code violations and primary or secondary concerns relating to the panel along with concerns with the wiring prior to the panel.

    Maybe they did a load annalist and determined that a 15 amp breaker was all that was needed. Who knows, not part of the OP.

    If the original picture had the black leg caped the breakers were staggered so they were all on one leg what would have you said as to why it looked that way???????

    Maybe I should move to France so I can claim that I am just tenderizing the meet when I .


  33. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,840

    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    1) Black leg being safely disconnected was not part of the OP question.
    While some may agree while others not, "Can somebody tell me what's going on with this panel and why it's wired this way?" steers in the OP's question to that hypothesis, but I could be mistaken.

    I further my hypothesis, as murky as it can be due to lack of assessment methodology with verification of some sort, I combine,"This is a sub panel for a condo. The service breaker is on the other side of the room." I hope he could observe all conductors at the disconnect and follow the feeds in the conduit to the remote panel.


    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Maybe I should move to France so I can claim that I am just tenderizing the meat when I
    You do not have to spend the money or time, meat is tenderised in North America the same way.

    Hopefully, it tenderises his attitude.

    Ha ha ha. I never knew it was flogging a dead horse until someone mentioned it.
    Your a good sport Garry.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,339

    Default Re: 110V Service ?

    All this rhetoric is due to the OP's originally poorly worded question, that is both vague and ambiguous.

    Certainly a lesson in there for all of us....

    Dom.


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