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  1. #1
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    Default Require help to answer a question.

    I am having a discussion with a person who appears to be an electrical contractor.
    Although I am trying my best, and that is limited to a degree, I am trying to explain why Square D and Cutler Hammer produce breakers designed to hold two conductors.

    I hypothesize it was to extend a branch circuit.
    He says it should never be done.

    Any help would be appreciated.

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    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 10-10-2016 at 11:02 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    The breaker will indicate whether its approved for two wires. Done all the time here in Ontario again providing the breakers is approved. This is done in order to save space/money.

    The value of experience is not in seeing much, but in seeing wisely.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    This is done in order to save space/money.
    It would save more money to run the circuit as one circuit instead of two circuits - less wire, less labor to run one wire, etc.

    Instead of two 15 amp circuits (for example), there is only one 15 amp circuit when connected to one breaker.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It would save more money to run the circuit as one circuit
    I said that to a contentious little SOB electrical contractor on FB.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Instead of two 15 amp circuits (for example), there is only one 15 amp circuit when connected to one breaker.
    I concur.
    Dam, I lost S.D. Home Line PDF.

    I told him to go to the manufacturer and see what they say.
    Thanks guys.

    Jerry, you are fading. I can hardly see you....
    Ray, turn down the invisible mood please.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    There and back - to the chagrin of of at least one.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    ... explain why Square D and Cutler Hammer produce breakers designed to hold two conductors.
    They were tested that way.

    Really, that is what it comes down to.

    The design of the Square D breaker connection plate creates two wire terminals under the plate which is held down by one screw - the breakers were tested with one conductor and two conductors and listed in accordance to what it was tested with.

    The Cutler-Hammer breakers, terminal different than the Square D terminal, was tested with one conductor and two conductors and listed in accordance to what it was test with.

    It is expensive to test the various options, I am surprised that Cutler-Hammer did those tests. Square D, on the other hand, created a terminal plate for that purpose, then had it tested and approved - however, if one were to take that Square D terminal with that plate and wrap a single conductor around under the plate ... that would not be approved as that plate was not tested for having a conductor wrapped around under it ... the conductor(s) need to be straight in under the two terminal sections of the plate.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    I think just they did not take Cutler Hammer or Square D R&D into account.
    Go figure! An electrician not knowing the product they install.

    Hope you had a good time. Looks like a wonderful city.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 08-06-2016 at 09:39 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Cool Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Image00031.jpg
    For the un-initiated here is a Square D double tap on an allowed breaker. If you examine the label it clearly indicates a single al/cu conductor or two cu cunductors.

    Bob Kenney
    www.IndependentHomeInspectionMD.com
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Kenney View Post
    Image00031.jpg
    For the un-initiated here is a Square D double tap on an allowed breaker. If you examine the label it clearly indicates a single al/cu conductor or two cu cunductors.
    Bob.
    Thanks you.
    I am refreshing my education. By saying Square D have breakers you can tap twice is not a complete picture. From my understanding, the service panel must be labeled to accept this type of breaker as well. Would that be a far statement?

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    That's not a double tap.

    There are two terminals on those breakers and each terminal has one conductor in it.

    There is one terminal "screw" ... which has a terminal on each side of it.

    A "multiple tap" ("double" tap for those who have never seen three or more conductors in a terminal) on those breakers would be if both of those conductors were under the same side of the terminal screw.

    The photo simply shows a properly made termination on that breaker.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    That particular breaker is also capable of a 'single tap' (one wire) as listed on the breaker.

    Right and left can often be moot distinctions as well.

    Bob Kenney
    www.IndependentHomeInspectionMD.com
    Call or TEXT : 410-504-3751 rkenney74@comcast.net

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That's not a double tap.
    To be fair to Bob, double tapping is a misnomer.
    A service panel breaker not designed to take two specified gauge & material conductors under the breaker terminal screw plate would be consider non compliant to the manufacturers recommended installations procedure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    There are two terminals on those breakers and each terminal has one conductor in it.
    There is one terminal "screw" ... which has a terminal on each side of it.
    The terminal screw contacts the stationary contact.
    breaker parts.JPG
    Help me out so I can use the proper narrative.
    I do not think the proper words are being used.
    Orange is mine.

    There is a metal or conductive plate allocated by the manufacture to be under the "terminal screw." For one, so that the conductors are properly aligned at the termination point. (2) To retrain the conductors using the correct torque under the "terminal screw."

    What is that plate called? I looked on google but could not find the name of that plate. Any help would be appreciated.

    To be fair to Bob, the image shows the manufacturers label and what to look for. Labels are most important.

    A story.
    I have seen service panel breakers that are labeled to take up to two conductors.
    One Cutler Hammer service breaker termination plate had been removed on several breakers. 2 conductors were torqued under the terminal screw head only. One conductor/wire on each side of the screw head.
    The vendor thought I was heavy handed with my report and the brokerage house took a run at me. The vendor hired a home inspector to reinspect the home. I am certain litigation would have ensued if I had made errors, any omissions would have been dismissed, on their party only:-)

    The inspector used my report as a bread crumb trail. The report took 17 days to complete before I received a copy. It was peppered with errors and omissions.
    I say this because labels and terminology are most important. So are images.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 10-10-2016 at 08:51 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Bob.
    Thanks you.
    I am refreshing my education. By saying Square D have breakers you can tap twice is not a complete picture. From my understanding, the service panel must be labeled to accept this type of breaker as well. Would that be a far statement?
    Any breaker used in a panel needs to be listed for use in that panel.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Bob.
    Thanks you.
    I am refreshing my education. By saying Square D have breakers you can tap twice is not a complete picture. From my understanding, the service panel must be labeled to accept this type of breaker as well. Would that be a far statement?
    Any breaker used in a panel needs to be listed for use in that panel.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    2 conductors were torqued under the terminal screw head only. One conductor/wire on each side of the screw head.
    Glynock 075.jpg
    Like this?

    Bob Kenney
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Kenney View Post
    Glynock 075.jpg


    Sorry for the poor edit.

    Like this?
    Yes, but not quite like I was trying to explain.

    I have to mount a stored Seagate Besktop 2 tera-bite drive to upload some defects I have seen. I will try to post them when I get some time.
    Fully booked week.

    Here is one offering from a blog I wrote called. (Gauge the Gauge)
    Hope it meets with your approval.
    wire guage.JPG

    Sorry for the prior edit.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 10-11-2016 at 06:52 AM. Reason: Poor edit
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Kenney View Post
    Glynock 075.jpg
    Like this?
    Bob, that being a Cutler Hamer Class CLT type CH breaker. As with Square D breakers of the same characters, they accept CU AL and can terminate on either side of the terminal plate or tapped once.

    Question: Cuttler Hamme now EATON. These breakers still available?
    I will save this pic for my files if you do not mind.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Bob, that being a Cutler Hamer Class CLT type CH breaker. As with Square D breakers of the same characters, they accept CU AL and can terminate on either side of the terminal plate or tapped once.

    Question: Cuttler Hamme now EATON. These breakers still available?
    I will save this pic for my files if you do not mind.
    You are certainly welcome to the picture. These breakers are still available, even HD has them.

    If you look closely at the left portion of the label, partially out of the picture, you will see it says CU only.

    Bob Kenney
    www.IndependentHomeInspectionMD.com
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Require help to answer a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Kenney View Post
    You are certainly welcome to the picture. These breakers are still available, even HD has them.

    If you look closely at the left portion of the label, partially out of the picture, you will see it says CU only.
    Much thanks.
    Overlooked the CU only.

    Mostly see Square D. Cutler Hamer Class CLT are rare in my neck of the woods.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
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