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  1. #1
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    Default main disconnect question.

    I could not locate the main disconnect in the chase.
    I could only observe a 125 amp remote service equipment panel.

    Is a main disconnect required or is the service panel sufficient?
    Embarrassing.
    Any help would be appreciated.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I could not locate the main disconnect in the chase.
    I could only observe a 125 amp remote service equipment panel.
    Robert,

    Your terminology is confusing.

    "could not locate the main disconnect in the chase"
    - What chase? Where?

    "remote service equipment panel"
    - If it is a remote panel, it is not the service equipment panel.

    Is a main disconnect required or is the service panel sufficient?
    If a panel is the service equipment panel, then it will have the (or up to six service disconnects) main service disconnect in it.

    Clarification is needed, such as:
    - What type of structure? House, condo?
    - Service equipment is where the main service disconnect is, clarify the panel's purpose.
    - What do you mean by "chase"?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert,

    Your terminology is confusing.

    "could not locate the main disconnect in the chase"
    - What chase? Where?

    "remote service equipment panel"
    - If it is a remote panel, it is not the service equipment panel.



    If a panel is the service equipment panel, then it will have the (or up to six service disconnects) main service disconnect in it.

    Clarification is needed, such as:
    - What type of structure? House, condo?
    - Service equipment is where the main service disconnect is, clarify the panel's purpose.
    - What do you mean by "chase"?
    So sorry.
    I should not have posted on the fly using Microsoft's Windows 10 speech recognition software.
    Please excuse me.

    A wall chase or ceiling bulkhead to pass pipes, wires, ducts or vents.
    Common in 1960's homes.

    The 125 amp breaker panel, I forget the manufacturer, was mounted on the foundation in a chase. No main breaker. No main disconnect.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    A wall chase or ceiling bulkhead to pass pipes, wires, ducts or vents.
    Common in 1960's homes.
    Wall chase for pipes, yes, but a ceiling bulkhead (as I am envisioning it), no - the panel needs to be vertical, as in a wall, not horizontal as a panel would be in a ceiling.

    And not "in" the chase, just "recessed into" the wall chase.

    The 125 amp breaker panel, I forget the manufacturer, was mounted on the foundation in a chase. No main breaker. No main disconnect.
    How many breakers slots in the panel?

    Split bus panel?

    Meter outside, but no service equipment panel outside?

    How many conductors to (from the meter) the inside panel? From meter outside, right?

    Neutral insulated with a separate grounding means?

    Still many questions before there is an answer - photo would help.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Wall chase for pipes, yes, but a ceiling bulkhead (as I am envisioning it), no - the panel needs to be vertical, as in a wall, not horizontal as a panel would be in a ceiling. And not "in" the chase, just "recessed into" the wall chase.
    A wall chase, as I have come to know the space by, resembles a chimney chase.
    Typically, usually having 2 sides unless the wall is not geometrically typical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    How many breakers slots in the panel?
    24 slots.
    SYLVANIA Cat. No. B 24125.
    125 amps.
    120/240 volt.
    AC/CA
    (No main breaker disconnect in the panel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Split bus panel?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Meter outside, but no service equipment panel outside?
    Yes.
    Just going trough the pics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    How many conductors to (from the meter) the inside panel? From meter outside, right?
    Right. Meter outside.
    I would not open the panel front. Outside working clearance regulations.
    It would be a hard panel front to unmounted. I do not cross certain safety perimeters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Neutral insulated with a separate grounding means?
    Limited observation.
    Looked for the GEC as well.
    I just downloaded the images.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Still many questions before there is an answer - photo would help.
    Ha ha ha. I bet!
    Viola! It's like magic. Well maybe not magic but on hell of a lot better than my half baked and poorly formed question. ha ha ha So sorry everyone.
    I heard it called a brain fart somewhere.
    I hope I do not have another in a packed elevator.

    breaker panel.JPG

    I have been run off my feet and should have refrained from posting a thread. Sorry everyone. Please excuse me. I am not as dumb as I appear to be sometimes.
    Taking several days off.
    One last round of blood-work to finish off as well.
    Bloody skewed summer for me. Hope it ends with an answer and not more questions...

    Sorry for the edits. I suspect I need to update, or will be getting an Windows or NVIDIA update.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 09-06-2016 at 05:59 AM.
    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    Robert,

    That panel is not a split bus panel - at least not like any I've seen (based on that photo).

    Being as that panel is located where you say (in that chase) and that there is no service equipment (with proper main service disconnec(s) ... I suspect you are looking at unpermitted and unprofessional work (a professional should know what is required).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    408.36 Overcurrent Protection. In addition to the requirement of 408.30, a panelboard shall be protected by an
    overcurrent protective device having a rating not greater than that of the panelboard.

    230.71(A)(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    408.36 Overcurrent Protection. In addition to the requirement of 408.30, a panelboard shall be protected by an
    overcurrent protective device having a rating not greater than that of the panelboard.

    230.71(A)(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.
    And???

    What are you relating that to?

    A main in the panel to protect the panel? That is not required, read what you posted - does it say that a panelboard shall be protected by an overcurrent protection device in the panel having a rating not greater than that of the panelboard? Nope. Just says that the panelboard shall be protected by ... but does not state where that protection is required to be.

    Your second NEC quote is only for the/one-of-the main service disconnects, and that the main service disconnect(s) may be located outside or inside ... provided the location is readily accessible (did you look up what that means?).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    And???

    What are you relating that to?

    A main in the panel to protect the panel? That is not required, read what you posted - does it say that a panelboard shall be protected by an overcurrent protection device in the panel having a rating not greater than that of the panelboard? Nope. Just says that the panelboard shall be protected by ... but does not state where that protection is required to be.

    Your second NEC quote is only for the/one-of-the main service disconnects, and that the main service disconnect(s) may be located outside or inside ... provided the location is readily accessible (did you look up what that means?).
    I could not find the main service disconnect.
    Thus the crux of the thread.

    Main disconnect question. Does a breaker panel require overcurrent protection from a main disconnect.
    The only breakers in the panel were circuit breakers.
    No main disconnect in the breaker panel or elsewhere and I looked.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Main disconnect question. Does a breaker panel require overcurrent protection from a main disconnect.
    The only breakers in the panel were circuit breakers.
    No main disconnect in the breaker panel or elsewhere and I looked.
    Dropping the "main disconnect" terminology for clarity - until the end.

    The panel bus bars need to be protected from overcurrent by an overcurrent device (breaker or fuse) located upstream of the bus bars:
    - which could be in the panel with feeders connected to the breaker and the breaker protecting the bus bars
    - which could be located upstream from the panel with the breaker protecting the feeders to the panel, which now not only protects the bus bars but now also protects the feeders.

    The "feeders" in the above could be "service entrance conductors", in which case the main service disconnect would be in the panel with the service entrance conductors terminated to the breaker, which is now the main service disconnect, which in turn protects the bus bars.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    [QUOTE=Jerry Peck;268563]Dropping the "main disconnect" terminology for clarity - until the end.

    The panel bus bars need to be protected from overcurrent by an overcurrent device (breaker or fuse) located upstream of the bus bars:
    - which could be in the panel with feeders connected to the breaker and the breaker protecting the bus bars
    - which could be located upstream from the panel with the breaker protecting the feeders to the panel, which now not only protects the bus bars but now also protects the feeders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The "feeders" in the above could be "service entrance conductors", in which case the main service disconnect would be in the panel with the service entrance conductors terminated to the breaker, which is now the main service disconnect, which in turn protects the bus bars.
    Jerry,
    1:Overhead service drop.
    2: The meter mounted on the foundation.
    3: Panel mounted on the opposite side of the foundation inside the home below the metering box.
    You could look up the chase to see a conduit lead to the meter.
    4: No over current protection in the panel.
    5: All breakers were rated at or below 40 amps.
    6: I looked for a safety switch. Typically the over current protection/main disconnect in this setup with the panel being remote, sub panel in my neck of the woods for that circa of home.
    None to be found.
    Limitation, behind the rear interior wall.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: main disconnect question.

    Generally I can just follow the service to the house, and find the service disconnect quickly, nearby (generally inside). But our service drops are virtually all overhead: buried may not give themselves away as readily, in case that's your norm.
    Keith


  13. #13

    Default Outdated or not compliant MAIN Service

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I could not locate the main disconnect in the chase.
    I could only observe a 125 amp remote service equipment panel.

    Is a main disconnect required or is the service panel sufficient?
    Embarrassing.
    Any help would be appreciated.
    Hi Robert Young,
    The requirement depends... or if this is the original approved permitted installation. Without taking off the existing load panel cover in the pic shown, I can tell that this is a MLO and not a split bus load center. The SYLVANIA B24125 part no. designates the panel as being a 12-24 slot, 120/240V, 1ph, 125A rated enclosure.

    The terminology for the electrical equipment breaker box in a wall 'chase' is called a stud 'bay' in UBC talk. The electrical box is apparently not code compliant in the latest NEC 70 for USA installation but may have been, with serious doubt, for original local AHJ non adopted requirements of a long time ago.
    Should any electrical upgrading occur, for safety and under permit, this service conductor supply circuit must have a main disconnect installed between the Utility meter in an approved 125A Breaker box and a 4-wire line to the existing MLO panel. The existing panel will need an isolated neutral bus and separate EGC grounding if updated.


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