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  1. #1
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    Default AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Inspected a 66 year old home today with an updated 100 amp AKA sub-panel (main disconnected was located outside below the meter base) I noticed there was a ground wire (green wire) jumping from the neutral bar to the ground bar, would this mean the two bars are bonded together. If so this would be a safety issue and should be corrected ?? ThanksDorothy 063.JPGDorothy 059.JPGDorothy 060.JPGDorothy 062.JPG

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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    That sub is sinking - abandon ship ... yes, all the grounds which go to the neutral terminal bar on the right need to be removed and only go to the grounding bar on the left.

    Likewise, all the neutral wires which are going to the grounding bar on the left need to be removed and only go to the neutral terminal bar on the right.

    Neither are allowed on the other terminal bars.

    Also, make sure the neutral terminal bar is not also bonded to the enclosure with a screw or some other method - the neutral terminal bar needs to "float" above ground (be isolated from ground) and not be grounded.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That sub is sinking - abandon ship ... yes, all the grounds which go to the neutral terminal bar on the right need to be removed and only go to the grounding bar on the left.

    Likewise, all the neutral wires which are going to the grounding bar on the left need to be removed and only go to the neutral terminal bar on the right.

    Neither are allowed on the other terminal bars.

    Also, make sure the neutral terminal bar is not also bonded to the enclosure with a screw or some other method - the neutral terminal bar needs to "float" above ground (be isolated from ground) and not be grounded.
    Jerry those wires on the right side are not equipment ground wires, they are neutral wires that have turned a brownish color. The neutral and ground wires have been separated. My question is, see the green jumper wire at top jumping to both the neutral and the ground bus bars, does that wire bond both bus bars together like a bonding strap?? Thank You

    Last edited by Sam Morris; 10-18-2016 at 07:53 PM. Reason: more info

  4. #4
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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    ... yes, all the grounds which go to the neutral terminal bar on the right need to be removed and only go to the grounding bar on the left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Morris View Post
    My question is, see the green jumper wire at top jumping to both the neutral and the ground bus bars, does that wire bond both bus bars together like a bonding strap?? Thank You
    Above was my answer to your question.

    "all" ... "grounds" ... "need to be removed" - you are calling that green jumper wire a ground, aren't you?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Above was my answer to your question.

    "all" ... "grounds" ... "need to be removed" - you are calling that green jumper wire a ground, aren't you?
    I really don't know what its being used for, its not a equipment ground. I only know the green wire jumps from the equipment ground bus bar over to the neutral bus bar (remove it is what should be done) Thank you


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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Morris View Post
    I really don't know what its being used for, its not a equipment ground. I only know the green wire jumps from the equipment ground bus bar over to the neutral bus bar (remove it is what should be done) Thank you
    Sam,

    You described it correctly as the green jumper from the equipment ground to the neutral - it is being used as to bond the neutral to ground. A more correct terminology would be that it was the 'bonding jumper used to bond the neutral to ground' - but you nailed it close enough so I knew what you were referring to.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    So, the short answer is ... remove the green wire because it improperly bonds the neutral and ground bars together in the sub panel.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    So, the short answer is ... remove the green wire because it improperly bonds the neutral and ground bars together in the sub panel.
    It looks like there is one white going to the ground terminal bar, could just be the way it looks in the photos.

    Besides, wouldn't want that sub leaking, would you?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    So, the short answer is ... remove the green wire because it improperly bonds the neutral and ground bars together in the sub panel.
    I tend to take that sort of answer as TOO short.

    When an installation shows signs of ignorant work, the minimum recommendation I make is to correcvt what's evidently illegal AND to check what's happening at the other end of any wire that was run wrong.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Just curious if this is a 'subpanel.' The main disconnect that the op said is below the meter is not pictured.

    If it merely disconnects the mains then the pictured panel is the main house circuit originating point and the 'main' panel where the gounded conductor will be bonded to the ground bus.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just curious if this is a 'subpanel.' The main disconnect that the op said is below the meter is not pictured.

    If it merely disconnects the mains then the pictured panel is the main house circuit originating point and the 'main' panel where the grounded conductor will be bonded to the ground bus.

    Bob Kenney
    www.IndependentHomeInspectionMD.com
    Call or TEXT : 410-504-3751 rkenney74@comcast.net

  11. #11
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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Kenney View Post
    Just curious if this is a 'subpanel.' The main disconnect that the op said is below the meter is not pictured.

    If it merely disconnects the mains then the pictured panel is the main house circuit originating point and the 'main' panel where the gounded conductor will be bonded to the ground bus.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just curious if this is a 'subpanel.' The main disconnect that the op said is below the meter is not pictured.

    If it merely disconnects the mains then the pictured panel is the main house circuit originating point and the 'main' panel where the grounded conductor will be bonded to the ground bus.
    Its not the mainDorothy 064.JPG This is


  12. #12
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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Is the neutral bonded to ground in that panel?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Is the neutral bonded to ground in that panel?

    Bob Kenney
    www.IndependentHomeInspectionMD.com
    Call or TEXT : 410-504-3751 rkenney74@comcast.net

  13. #13
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    Default Re: AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Morris View Post
    Inspected a 66 year old home today with an updated 100 amp AKA sub-panel (main disconnected was located outside below the meter base) I noticed there was a ground wire (green wire) jumping from the neutral bar to the ground bar, would this mean the two bars are bonded together. If so this would be a safety issue and should be corrected ?? ThanksDorothy 063.JPGDorothy 059.JPGDorothy 060.JPGDorothy 062.JPG
    I can not make it out in the photo but if so, The National Electrical Code (NEC) has prohibited re-grounding the neutral after the service since the 1923 edition.
    Exceptions were closed in 1996. Dryers and ranges.
    250-24(a)(5), 250-142(b), and 384-20.

    A: Looks like conductor sheathing has been cut back too far on several breaker terminations.
    B: Also, the strand conductor sheathing and insulator on the 50 amp breaker, left power bus, number one breaker, are suspect. Frayed cloth and (suspect) heat fatigue at the insulator just before termination.
    Tinned copper?

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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