Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1

    Default is this improper grounding/bonding

    Need some help with this service panel grounding set up. All ground wires are on separate ground blocks bonded only to the Panel box by the screws that are used to mount the blocks. No other connection to the grounded neutral buss other than the mounting screws.

    Panel has bonding screw installed and if you look close in the upper left hand corner you can see a #6 ground wire but it goes to a bonding bushing on PVC conduit! I noted the shared neutrals and what I think is improper bonding of the grounding bars.

    Is this proper?is this proper.jpg

    Similar Threads:
    2019 ASHI InspectionWorld

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,913

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Was it really pvc conduit or was it simply a plastic bushing? What type of conduct was used? Do you have a closeup of the left corner of the panel? Just outside the panel?

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Maybe it's too early in the morning for me, but that looks like a sub panel (don't even start the "no such thing as a sub panel" nonsense). The photo is not sharp, but it looks like floating neutrals which is what we want on a sub panel. There doesn't appear to be a main disconnect breaker. One white wire on a breaker (likely AC) is not wrapped in black tape or designated as a "hot" as required. If this is the main service panel for the house, then it doesn't appear to be wired correctly (unless the main disconnect is at another location).
    Maybe you are using terminology that I am unfamiliar with, but I don't see what I would call "shared neutrals."

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Maryland, DC, and Northern Virginia, electrical only
    Posts
    116

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    One white wire on a breaker (likely AC) is not wrapped in black tape or designated as a "hot" as required.
    Depending on the installation's age, reidentification of the white conductor from a cable may not have been required at the time of installation. This doesn't mean that as a HI you can't mention it. The same goes for I think circuits 9 and 11 having independent breakers rather than a 2-pole or handle-tied single poles.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,873

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    I am with Lon on this. As well poor image quality.

    In a remote way, it resembles a sub panel. Is that safe to say.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,913

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    The panel has a main breaker.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  7. #7

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    1 this is the main panel and it has a 100 amp main disconnect
    2 yes it is PVC conduit to the meter
    3 the shared neutral call out is for the two single pole breakers on the bottom left controling 12-3 wg, should have a ganged breaker or tie
    4 what caught my attention was it was wired like I would expect a remote panel but it is the service disconnect
    5 no direct ground wire was used to tie the extra grounding bars to the grounded neutral buss
    6 the one #6 bare ground present was attached to PVC conduit with a grounding bushing
    6 I apologize for the poor picture

    If installing the bonding screw was sufficient grounding/bonding for the extra ground bars then I have miss spoken, and will apologize when the electrician calls yelling and screaming

    Thanks for the comments


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,873

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Thanks Jim. I looked and missed it. Much appreciated.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,873

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hawley View Post
    If installing the bonding screw was sufficient grounding/bonding for the extra ground bars then I have miss spoken, and will apologize when the electrician calls yelling and screaming

    Thanks for the comments
    I might be off base but I notice a conductor on the left neural bus bar.
    panel question.JPG

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  10. #10

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I might be off base but I notice a conductor on the left neural bus bar.
    panel question.JPG
    Robert

    This is a Siemens panel and that is the tie from left to right neutral buss, good comment though

    how did you add the arrow?

    Don


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,873

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Morning, Don.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hawley View Post
    Robert
    This is a Siemens panel and that is the tie from left to right neutral buss,
    If you mention the model of Siemens panel, I can/would look at the schematics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hawley View Post
    good comment though
    Thanks.
    I had no idea what it was.
    The proximity to the power busses raised the hair on the back of my neck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hawley View Post
    how did you add the arrow?
    Don
    A: Copied and saved to my photos.
    B: Open HIP, Home Inspection Pro, and edited the photo.
    Before I close the photo editing I copied and saved the edited image to my photos.
    C: Published on the thread.

    Don, Call me anytime. We can go over the technique or just chat all things home inspections.
    Be my great pleasure.
    I know I have so much to learn and do have a bit to offer...I think...well at least I hope so other than, the poor intended jocularity and occasional rant.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,873

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hawley View Post
    Robert

    This is a Siemens panel and that is the tie from left to right neutral buss
    Don, circuit conductors are prohibited from crossing over power busses. I would love to follow the route of that neutral bus tie.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,913

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    There is absolutely no issue with the added ground bars in a service panel. The mounting screws are enough. No additional conductor to the neutral bus is needed.

    the neutral connector show with the arrow is a factory part. It is being used as designed and tested.

    the mwbc without the common disconnect means may pre-date the requirement.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    nj
    Posts
    1

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Hi Don,
    As long as the grounding bars are attached to the panel with:
    NEC 250.8
    (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two threads or are secured with a nut
    or
    (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two threads in the enclosure


    It is a proper connection - there is no need for an additional strap to the Neutral bar, as long as the Neutral bar has the green grounding screw to the panel installed.

    Joe G
    Blue Arc Electric LLC



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,194

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    I think the comments are great but miss the point unless I missed it in reading through the comments.
    The question is it grounded properly since the only ground connection is from the ground bar to the PVC. I see no other GEC connection in the panel which would mean there is no GEC and the panel relies only on the Neutral for grounding which would be a problem in either service or non-service (sub) panel configuration, right?

    You need a grounding electrode to be bonded to the panel since this is the service panel. Even if the conduit were steel, it does not qualify as an electrode.

    Last edited by Jim Luttrall; 01-27-2017 at 10:15 AM.
    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,873

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Good catch Jim.
    A grounding bushing is required on the service side, rigid conduit, no concentrics.
    I had to Google grounding bushing. Here is what Mighty-Rite...http://nescocanada.com/product/might...ding-bushings/

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,873

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Home been renovated?

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,913

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    The ground might originate in the meter.

    I would still like to see the conduit feeding the panel.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,873

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Jim, or any members, how would one correctly identify a ground connection "visually" in a case like this?
    What steps could one perform visually to verify there is a ground.

    The way I see it, someone flipping a home could easily avoid grounding the box either purposely, or out of sheer ignorance.

    Any answers will be received with great appreciation.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,913

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    The easiest way would be to look for the #4 or #6. Following where it goes might be an issue , but should go to an electrode like a rod or metallic water line.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,597

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Don, I think I know what is bugging you. There are no grounding conductors going to the neutral bus
    which is allowed and standard procedure in the US. But they can be separated, as they always are in Canada.
    It makes for a tidier, easy to check panel, don't ya think?

    You are right, tho, there is no bonding to the meter if not by conduit.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 01-27-2017 at 05:22 PM.
    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    That is not a sub-panel. It has a main breaker. There is a bonding jumper on the neutral buss where it belongs. Looks fine to me.


  23. #23

    Default Re: is this improper grounding/bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Don, I think I know what is bugging you. There are no grounding conductors going to the neutral bus
    which is allowed and standard procedure in the US. But they can be separated, as they always are in Canada.
    It makes for a tidier, easy to check panel, don't ya think?

    You are right, tho, there is no bonding to the meter if not by conduit.
    I am sure the meter is grounded as there is a piece of 1/2 inch conduit running to dirt which indicates a ground wire to the ground rod. I believe if the meter base is grounded the neutral is sufficient by the NEC. Our local utility requires a continuous ground wire from the ground rod through the meter base to the service panel neutral, although the linemen and local AHJ often do not enforce this.

    Thanks to everyone who replied, there was just to much amerture hour work going on in this box I guess I over thought it.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •