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  1. #1
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    Default Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    The resin buildup does not prohibit the panels from opening and closing, nor is it on the breakers themselves. I am told the resin is Fire rated and non flammable. As you can see some has coated the index, and the exterior has a shell over most of it. Warehouse main service equipment and numerous other subs. Do I state panel box replacement is required due to this fiberglass resin buildup?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris viscomi View Post
    The resin buildup does not prohibit the panels from opening and closing, nor is it on the breakers themselves. I am told the resin is Fire rated and non flammable. As you can see some has coated the index, and the exterior has a shell over most of it. Warehouse main service equipment and numerous other subs. Do I state panel box replacement is required due to this fiberglass resin buildup?
    Define "I am told the resin is Fire rated and non flammable."

    Your title calls it "fireproof resin", but your post calls it "fiberglass resin" - ever seen a Corvette or boat burn?

    Corvettes burning: (fiberglass is not fireproof, it burns, and burns hot)
    - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z6AgUy44lEg/maxresdefault.jpg
    - http://www.corvetteonline.com/wp-con...9ac0210491.jpg
    - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HxiWagukQm0/maxresdefault.jpg
    - http://www.corvetteblogger.com/image...4/091414_6.jpg

    Boats burning (to the water line, the water controls the burning of what is left floating):
    - https://mgtvwkrn.files.wordpress.com...iver.jpg?w=460
    - http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/PHOTO...0101/8d%20.jpg
    - http://threesheetsnw.com/files/2012/...ngsailboat.jpg
    - http://uk.boats.com/boat-content/fil...t-12.21.06.png

    If that is fiberglass resin, which is what I suspect you are saying it is, then it does have a 'fire rating' ... of 'burn, burn baby, burn' ... because it will.

    I would report it with something to the affect of 'Have the local Fire Marshall review the interior of this building and determine if it is suitable for continued use in its current condition with fiberglass resin covering blah, blah, blah.'

    Takes it out of your hands and places it into the hands of the Fire Marshall, who not only has the power and authority to shut the building down, but is also charged with protecting the lives of firefighters and first responders.

    How bad is it? Don't know, can't tell from the photos. Doesn't matter, either - let the Fire Marshall decide.

    A fire that hot could cause the failure of the structure, burn it if of wood, melt it if of metal, either way, the inside would become a big oven for everyone and everything inside it during a fire (depends on how much resin there is on how much of the interior surfaces, but if it has collected on the inside of panel covers, it is likely 'all over everything else' too.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Define "I am told the resin is Fire rated and non flammable."

    Your title calls it "fireproof resin", but your post calls it "fiberglass resin" - ever seen a Corvette or boat burn?
    It is a special class of resin, with a Class A fire rating. But I hear you. The current occupants are going to clean the building on their exit (most of it is dust), but I do not believe the resin will come off the panels.

    I will follow your advice, since it is the only way to CMA...


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    This is a commercial electrical installation and is subject to a special world of hurt in code and installation requirements. I suspect that there is no allowance for anything being applied to the boxes, inside or out.

    Then there is the argument that manufacture specifications do not allow the boxes to be altered outside of manufacture guidelines.

    There is the question of why did they spray a metal box, including the interior, but what the rational was is irrelevant at this point. Unless there is documentation allowing it.

    On one last passing shot, was there any spray behind the panel ? If so then the rest is mute.

    Panels have to be replaced .


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    'Why' is the hardest question to answer sometimes.
    But this one's easy. He was testing the sprayer on a smooth vertical surface.

    Guys that work with FG, they uh... I don't know, what was I saying?

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris viscomi View Post
    It is a special class of resin, with a Class A fire rating.
    Chris,

    I haven't found any fiberglass resins with a Class A fire rating, all which are rated seem to be Class I or Class II rated:

    - here is one source (it explains the ratings): http://www.aoc-resins.com/pdf/aoc-fr-brochure.pdf
    - - Class I Flame Rating ≤ 25 flame spread
    - - Class II Flame Rating = 26 to 75 flame spread
    - - Class I Smoke Rating ≤ 450 smoke developed

    Nonetheless, though ... let the Fire Marshall do his/her job - right?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    This is a commercial electrical installation and is subject to a special world of hurt in code and installation requirements. I suspect that there is no allowance for anything being applied to the boxes, inside or out.

    Then there is the argument that manufacture specifications do not allow the boxes to be altered outside of manufacture guidelines.

    There is the question of why did they spray a metal box, including the interior, but what the rational was is irrelevant at this point. Unless there is documentation allowing it.

    On one last passing shot, was there any spray behind the panel ? If so then the rest is mute.

    Panels have to be replaced .
    There's just a wee bit of supposition here that I wouldn't make: that the manufacturer would consider coating that's restricted to the outside of the enclosure an alteration of the panel. An alternative would be to suggest asking the manufacturer (in writing/email) or a Field Evaluation Body.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    David,
    I think that someone in the past demonstrated that any alteration to the panel inside or outside went against manufacture specifications and therefore technically must be replaced. I can not say when or where to look for thread and I do not have something at hand to quote for you. Maybe Jerry has a citation that he can list for us.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    David,
    I think that someone in the past demonstrated that any alteration to the panel inside or outside went against manufacture specifications and therefore technically must be replaced. I can not say when or where to look for thread and I do not have something at hand to quote for you. Maybe Jerry has a citation that he can list for us.
    NEC 110.3(B) Listing and Labeling (to be installed and maintained in accordance with listing and labeling instructions (which includes manufacturer's installation instructions).

    In previous conversations with UL regarding same/similar 'contamination' issues I asked about "paint" (which includes basically any coating one can apply to something) on the interior and on the exterior of various items - UL has no done no testing of the various "paints" for fire, smoke, arcing, etc, other than the "paint" applied to the product by the manufacturer prior to testing of the product.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    NEC 110.3(B) Listing and Labeling (to be installed and maintained in accordance with listing and labeling instructions (which includes manufacturer's installation instructions).

    In previous conversations with UL regarding same/similar 'contamination' issues I asked about "paint" (which includes basically any coating one can apply to something) on the interior and on the exterior of various items - UL has no done no testing of the various "paints" for fire, smoke, arcing, etc, other than the "paint" applied to the product by the manufacturer prior to testing of the product.
    This is a tetchy issue. For instance, one is allowed to reidentify certain conductors by means that can include various kinds of marking that the AHJ accepts, per 200.6.
    For instance, one is allowed to mount a panelboard--that is, the cabinet--against various surfaces that are known to be combustible, such as plywood.
    OTOH, you're quite right that no paint manufacturer seems to have offered a generally-available paint that has been tested for application over, say, SEC to seal the covering or to help it blend with the house.
    John Cangemi, who's active in IAEI and a long-time a UL field rep, would recommend that if you wanted to hide the SE on the side of a house you hide it with a nonmetallic downspout.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    Testing a panel with every brand and type of paint is totally impractical and unrealistic to even think about. The product would never make it to market because testing would never be finished.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Testing a panel with every brand and type of paint is totally impractical and unrealistic to even think about. The product would never make it to market because testing would never be finished.
    Absolutely correct, and why UL will not address any paint coating other than what the manufacturer of the panel used at the time of manufacture.

    Are some paint coatings compatible? "Might" be would be the only answer - you will never get a "yes" for the reason Jim gave - too many variables between paint formulations, and re-formulations would make an prior test no long applicable to that specific manufacturer and paint coating.

    Questions for all:

    - Is 'one drop' of foreign paint in the panel okay?

    - If no, would you write it up with just 'one drop' of foreign paint in the panel?

    - If yes, are 'two drops' of foreign paint in the panel okay?

    - If yes, 'how many drops' of foreign paint in the panel is not okay?

    - Trick questions? Not really, but it does create a scenario where you have to decide what to 'write up' and what 'not to write up' ... and the justification of why (which, some day, you may be asked to justify).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Does buildup of fireproof resin require new panels in commercial warehouse?

    The residue appears as though it was deposited as the result of an atmosphere that had resin mist. The fact that it got inside the enclosures tells me that the breakers may be compromised as well.


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