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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
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    568

    Default Bundled conductors

    Is it OK to bundle all these conductors through the joists as shown in photo?
    If not, What code article(s) would this be breaking?

    Thanks

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
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    4,494

    Default Re: Bundled conductors

    Bump.
    Good luck, Ken. I seem to recall that bundling for 4 feet was not a terrible thing, but will bow to the consensus here.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    25,935

    Default Re: Bundled conductors

    NEC 310.15.(B)(3)(a)

    Each two-conductor NM cable has two current-carrying conductors.

    4-6 current-carrying conductors is derated to 80 percent
    7-9 ... derated to 70 percent
    10-20 ... derated to 50 percent
    21-30 ... derated to 45 percent
    31-40 ... derated to 40 percent
    41 and above ... derated to 335 percent

    The derating is taken after any ambient derating (basement likely has no ambient derating, attic ambient derating is a killer).

    The derating is from the 90 degree C column, which means that derating is taken from:
    14 AWG NM-B ... 25 amps (copper)
    12 AWG NM-B ... 30 amps (copper)
    10 AWG NM-B ... 40 amps (copper)

    Looks to be 10-12 or more two-conductor NM cables in each bundle, for 20-24 current-carrying conductors, which would require derating to 45 percent:
    14 AWG NM-B ... 25 amps (copper) derated to 11.25 amps
    12 AWG NM-B ... 30 amps (copper) derated to 13.5 amps
    10 AWG NM-B ... 40 amps (copper) derated to 18 amps

    The derating takes place when spacing is not maintained for more than 24 inches.

    The solution there, if the NM cables have enough slack to pull back to there, would be to nail is 3 2x4 nailers (to give one going across the open space) and staple the NM cables out side-by-side-by-side at the middle of each bundle. That would be about the only way (at this point) to come close to meeting the code requirements.

    Someone may have though they were doing a real 'neat' job keeping all those NM cables together.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    45

    Default Re: Bundled conductors

    I'm going to say what Raymond's father says "HOLY CRAP!!!!" It also appears that the joist or beam is over notched at the top but not repaired. Can't tell whether that is a joist or a beam??


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    NEC 310.15.(B)(3)(a)

    Each two-conductor NM cable has two current-carrying conductors.

    4-6 current-carrying conductors is derated to 80 percent
    7-9 ... derated to 70 percent
    10-20 ... derated to 50 percent
    21-30 ... derated to 45 percent
    31-40 ... derated to 40 percent
    41 and above ... derated to 335 percent

    The derating is taken after any ambient derating (basement likely has no ambient derating, attic ambient derating is a killer).

    The derating is from the 90 degree C column, which means that derating is taken from:
    14 AWG NM-B ... 25 amps (copper)
    12 AWG NM-B ... 30 amps (copper)
    10 AWG NM-B ... 40 amps (copper)

    Looks to be 10-12 or more two-conductor NM cables in each bundle, for 20-24 current-carrying conductors, which would require derating to 45 percent:
    14 AWG NM-B ... 25 amps (copper) derated to 11.25 amps
    12 AWG NM-B ... 30 amps (copper) derated to 13.5 amps
    10 AWG NM-B ... 40 amps (copper) derated to 18 amps

    The derating takes place when spacing is not maintained for more than 24 inches.

    The solution there, if the NM cables have enough slack to pull back to there, would be to nail is 3 2x4 nailers (to give one going across the open space) and staple the NM cables out side-by-side-by-side at the middle of each bundle. That would be about the only way (at this point) to come close to meeting the code requirements.

    Someone may have though they were doing a real 'neat' job keeping all those NM cables together.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,886

    Default Re: Bundled conductors

    I would be more concerned about the two holes drilled too close together and the location of the holes.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Bundled conductors

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    I would be more concerned about the two holes drilled too close together and the location of the holes.
    I would be equally concerned with both.

    They have placed a 'heater' in those holes.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,886

    Default Re: Bundled conductors

    Gravity works all the time. Current only flows part of the time to generate heat and only some cables will have any current at all.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Bundled conductors

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Gravity works all the time. Current only flows part of the time to generate heat and only some cables will have any current at all.
    And that has been, apparently, resisting gravity for some time as those do not look like 'new wood'.

    Thus, while 'not permitted', there may be sufficient support there to resist gravity.

    Live loads, like the current you refer to, are like the current you referred to - not there all the time.

    I restate that BOTH are a concern.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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