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  1. #1
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    Default 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage



    The conduit for all 4 condos enters from the slab at the garage floor of the unit I inspected. While this can be expected when using conduit within concrete due to moisture, I am wondering what can be done to correct this. As an Inspector I do not care, but these are relatives and they do not know whether the association would be responsible or the utility? Also wondering the wiring being exposed at the rusted out section is a danger? Finally, in your opinion can they just brick around it so it is not exposed?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    1) Looks like EMT. To the best of my knowledge, EMT is not approved for burial. I cannot tell if this is buried in soil or embedded in concrete. Clearly that is a significant defect and should be corrected.

    2) Only correction that I can imagine is replacement of damaged sections of conduit. Around here, buried conduit is PVC.

    3) In my area, the service conduit is the responsibility of the homeowner. The best bet would be to contact the utility company, but I suspect it will be on the association.

    4) Hmmm... are exposed wires a hazard? Not to me, but then again, I'm not there. To someone nearby? Yes.

    5) Sure, you *can* just brick around it. But, that wouldn't be a proper/acceptable repair. It *should* be replaced.

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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    1) Looks like EMT. To the best of my knowledge, EMT is not approved for burial. I cannot tell if this is buried in soil or embedded in concrete. Clearly that is a significant defect and should be corrected.

    2) Only correction that I can imagine is replacement of damaged sections of conduit. Around here, buried conduit is PVC.
    They used to use a lot of rigid and IMC in-ground, then began going with Sch 80 PVC (Sch 40 is not allowed from 18 inches down or up to 8 feet or the first enclosure, which ever comes first).

    3) In my area, the service conduit is the responsibility of the homeowner. The best bet would be to contact the utility company, but I suspect it will be on the association.
    Correct, that would typically be the association for a condo as most utility companies who used to insist that 'they owned everything' realized that 'ownership' came with 'replacement liability' and gave all existing installations to the owners, with all new installations belonging to the owners - the utility companies typically only the meter and the underground/overhead conductors nowadays,

    4) Hmmm... are exposed wires a hazard? Not to me, but then again, I'm not there. To someone nearby? Yes.
    Yes, the exposed conductors are considered a hazard. The conduits need to be replaced.

    5) Sure, you *can* just brick around it. But, that wouldn't be a proper/acceptable repair. It *should* be replaced.
    Replacing the conduits would be what is "required" ... as Gunnar pointed pointed out - many things "can" be done ... inspectors take photos of those things all the time ... the key is that those things are "not permitted" to be done the way they were done.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    "As an Inspector I do not care, but these are relatives and they do not know whether the association would be responsible or the utility?"

    Jerry and Gunnar have answered the electrical end of this sufficiently. However ...
    So I'm guessing you have no idea how much your above quote makes you sound just like a sleazy agent?
    You want to do a good job for your relatives but don't care about your clients. Sure hope everyone in your area reads that and calls someone else for their inspection.
    I would prefer someone with that attitude either realize the error of their thoughts or find another profession to be a burden on. Your statement also makes me think you are one of those pathetic paint to paint Condo inspectors which quite frankly should be banned.

    Unless someone is specifically buying a Condo unit that has known issues, needs rehab etc. a Condo inspection is rarely about the Condo. Condo inspections are always about the property conditions and whether or not they will bite the buyer in the a...
    When it comes to a Condo inspection, if you aren't looking at the property then you really aren't doing much for your client.



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  5. #5
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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    "As an Inspector I do not care, but these are relatives and they do not know whether the association would be responsible or the utility?"

    Jerry and Gunnar have answered the electrical end of this sufficiently. However ...
    So I'm guessing you have no idea how much your above quote makes you sound just like a sleazy agent?
    You want to do a good job for your relatives but don't care about your clients. Sure hope everyone in your area reads that and calls someone else for their inspection.
    I would prefer someone with that attitude either realize the error of their thoughts or find another profession to be a burden on. Your statement also makes me think you are one of those pathetic paint to paint Condo inspectors which quite frankly should be banned.

    Unless someone is specifically buying a Condo unit that has known issues, needs rehab etc. a Condo inspection is rarely about the Condo. Condo inspections are always about the property conditions and whether or not they will bite the buyer in the a...
    When it comes to a Condo inspection, if you aren't looking at the property then you really aren't doing much for your client.

    You misread. "Inspectors" do not need to know how to fix a defect and also do not care whose jurisdiction the repair would fall to - they list it as a defect. I specifically was trying to be sensitive to that and said I do not care as an Inspector - meaning I do not care to know how to do the electrical repair or whose jurisdiction it would/should fall to, because these are relatives who are going to specifically ask me what should be done and by whom. Gunnar and Jerry know this as they have helped me numerous times and obviously did not read it as you did. I reread my post and can see how you may have possibly misread it, so I am going to be polite and explain so that you might retract your incorrect character assassination.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    No need to retract my concerns about your level of professionalism or lack thereof. Your reply just reinforced your lesser concern for your clients over relatives.
    "meaning I do not care to know how to do the electrical repair or whose jurisdiction it would/should fall to, because these are relatives who are going to specifically ask me what should be done and by whom."
    Your comment seems to indicate fairly clearly that if it is your relatives asking you questions, you want to provide them with relevant answers. If on the other hand its just your clients asking ... well then you don't need to provide answers because as an inspector its not your job and you don't care.

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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    No need to retract my concerns about your level of professionalism or lack thereof. Your reply just reinforced your lesser concern for your clients over relatives.
    "meaning I do not care to know how to do the electrical repair or whose jurisdiction it would/should fall to, because these are relatives who are going to specifically ask me what should be done and by whom."
    Your comment seems to indicate fairly clearly that if it is your relatives asking you questions, you want to provide them with relevant answers. If on the other hand its just your clients asking ... well then you don't need to provide answers because as an inspector its not your job and you don't care.
    Marcus,

    I think I am going to have to disagree with you here. I see the intent behind the questions and comments as normal, just not well phrased. Just because chris has more concern about relatives, does not necessarily mean that he does not care about his clients. Frankly, I care more about my friends and relatives than I do about clients - I suspect that goes for (nearly) all of us. This doesn't mean that I don't care or am going to do a less thorough job for clients, it just means that I care more about one group than another. I see this as natural and reasonable.

    When it comes to relatives, I believe most of us would stick our necks out a bit more for them. For example, I am reluctant to give contractor referrals to customers because I do not want the liability if the contractor does a crappy job. I am more likely to do so for relatives.

    chris may be asking because he is more likely to visit these relatives and more likely he will notice and remember the conditions with the conduits. If he notices during one of his annual Thanksgiving visits that the repairs are substandard, he has an obligation to notify his relatives. It is unlikely that he will go back to that same complex if it is a customer, unless hired to. Do you revisit homes that you inspected unless hired to do so?

    Taking that one step further, do we as inspectors have an obligation to mention substandard conditions at locations (homes, businesses, hotels, etc.) that we are just visiting? Should I notify the sandwich shop owner that her/his egress door does not meet current code? Should I notify the motel owner that his/her second floor guardrail does not meet current code or that the fire extinguisher is not up-to-date? If I don't mention it, does this mean that I am callous, it's not my job and I don't care, or does this simply mean that I am allowed to take a day off? Would it be a double standard for me to mention some deficiency while visiting a relative, even though I had not been hired as an inspector?

    Not trying to beat you up here and I hope I did not come off that way - I am afraid that it might seem that way. Just offering my thinking and asking some questions to stimulate discussion on our obligations.

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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    No need to retract my concerns about your level of professionalism or lack thereof. Your reply just reinforced your lesser concern for your clients over relatives.
    "meaning I do not care to know how to do the electrical repair or whose jurisdiction it would/should fall to, because these are relatives who are going to specifically ask me what should be done and by whom."
    Your comment seems to indicate fairly clearly that if it is your relatives asking you questions, you want to provide them with relevant answers. If on the other hand its just your clients asking ... well then you don't need to provide answers because as an inspector its not your job and you don't care.
    Markus, Markus, Markus.....There is a lot more than just giving additional info I would do for a relative that I would not do for a Client . The difference is family and the added liability and extra work I do not take on for strangers.

    So I can assume by your "disgust" that you either "do more than your job" for your family AND your Clients equally, or you treat your family like a regular client....which either way sounds bad....good luck with that business model pal.

    Last edited by chris vis; 10-06-2017 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Somewhere in the middle is the happy medium.

    You should learn as much as you can about this stuff, for your relatives, yes, but also for your every day clients. Knowing how a repair is made helps us to gauge the seriousness of the defect.

    There is another factor at play in condo inspections. How many similar situations exist in the entire complex? Or is it just the 4 units? Smaller groups have to bear more of the cost individually.

    Find an electrician who can give you some local info, such as typical costs for that type of repair. Again, you don't need to give repair prices to clients, but you should know ball park costs.

    Bricks to hide the rust won't do. The concrete needs to be busted up so new PVC sleeves can be slipped over the conductors.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Somewhere in the middle is the happy medium.
    Find an electrician who can give you some local info, such as typical costs for that type of repair. Again, you don't need to give repair prices to clients, but you should know ball park costs.
    John,

    While I agree with your first sentence, I will have to disagree with knowing the cost on something of this type. I can get the idea of knowing the approximate cost of roof replacement, furnace replacement, service equipment, etc. But jacking up an unknown amount of concrete to replace unknown lengths of conduit? That seems a bit specialized. I never thought of sleeving the corroded portions, and that is interesting. But, we can't know the condition of the hidden sections of conduit until the concrete is removed. If they are EMT buried in soil, they could be corroded for quite a distance.

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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Bricks to hide the rust won't do. The concrete needs to be busted up so new PVC sleeves can be slipped over the conductors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    I never thought of sleeving the corroded portions, and that is interesting.
    While sleeving may be "interesting" ... sleeving is not a correct repair.

    One can sleeve conduit which is in good condition ... not really sure why one would do that ... other than to use the sleeve as a chase, such as laying a sleeve under a driveway for future conduit runs.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Clients pay the bills, relatives don't. It's kind of like in the restaurant biz. Some restaurant owners favor family when they show up for a meal. Other restaurant owners favor the paying customer because they understand the customer pays the bills and makes or breaks their ongoing business.
    If a customer and a relative call for the same time slot. The customer gets it.
    You sound like another one of these pathetic checkbox idiots who just wants to fill out an inspection report and be done with it. Those are the inspectors we need to drive out of our profession. They only continue the publics bad experience with home inspectors, keep our profession as a joke in the minds of many and allow bad agents to manipulate Buyers.

    "There is a lot more than just giving additional info I would do for a relative that I would not do for a Client . The difference is family and the added liability and extra work I do not take on for strangers."

    Your attitude above is exactly why people hire me after they've already paid someone like you for a service that ended up being useless. Inspectors don't get sued or incur liability because they actually do a good job and provide clients with relevant information. That's one of those great lies lazy inspectors like to promote.
    If you aren't looking at the Condo building as a whole during a Condo inspection and aren't providing Building information in your report then you are NOT providing the client with the information they actually need to know to make an informed decision. Roughly 1/2 of the Condo deals I look at die because of building conditions. Someone has to pay for those building repairs. If you are a paint to paint inspector in terms of Condo's then you are automatically screwing their client. I don't know what its like where you work but around here paint to paint Condo inspectors are considered low life bottom feeders that deserve no respect.
    I spend probably half my time doing consulting work. When you come to understand that educating Buyers is in part a responsibility and a benefit then you might be qualified to carry my ladder.
    Good, responsible inspectors are the last line of defense for a buyer against the sharks in real estate. As inspectors we need to provide Buyers with as much information as possible so they end up less susceptible to the lies they will hear from others.




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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Clients pay the bills, relatives don't. It's kind of like in the restaurant biz. Some restaurant owners favor family when they show up for a meal. Other restaurant owners favor the paying customer because they understand the customer pays the bills and makes or breaks their ongoing business.
    If a customer and a relative call for the same time slot. The customer gets it.
    You sound like another one of these pathetic checkbox idiots who just wants to fill out an inspection report and be done with it. Those are the inspectors we need to drive out of our profession. They only continue the publics bad experience with home inspectors, keep our profession as a joke in the minds of many and allow bad agents to manipulate Buyers.

    "There is a lot more than just giving additional info I would do for a relative that I would not do for a Client . The difference is family and the added liability and extra work I do not take on for strangers."

    Your attitude above is exactly why people hire me after they've already paid someone like you for a service that ended up being useless. Inspectors don't get sued or incur liability because they actually do a good job and provide clients with relevant information. That's one of those great lies lazy inspectors like to promote.
    If you aren't looking at the Condo building as a whole during a Condo inspection and aren't providing Building information in your report then you are NOT providing the client with the information they actually need to know to make an informed decision. Roughly 1/2 of the Condo deals I look at die because of building conditions. Someone has to pay for those building repairs. If you are a paint to paint inspector in terms of Condo's then you are automatically screwing their client. I don't know what its like where you work but around here paint to paint Condo inspectors are considered low life bottom feeders that deserve no respect.
    I spend probably half my time doing consulting work. When you come to understand that educating Buyers is in part a responsibility and a benefit then you might be qualified to carry my ladder.
    Good, responsible inspectors are the last line of defense for a buyer against the sharks in real estate. As inspectors we need to provide Buyers with as much information as possible so they end up less susceptible to the lies they will hear from others.


    You are a pompous ass flying a flag of self righteousness. Boy you are great...just ask you! Come on down and "drive me out of business". Construction guys (like you) are the reason that people need Inspectors. You make me laugh Markus- because you add no value, other than your self proclaimed standard of ethics beyond the scope of our comprehension. I hope that makes you feel better about yourself when you blow your own horn....Now shoo...go troll in your singles over 40 chatroom and tell them how great you are.....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Clients pay the bills, relatives don't. It's kind of like in the restaurant biz. Some restaurant owners favor family when they show up for a meal. Other restaurant owners favor the paying customer because they understand the customer pays the bills and makes or breaks their ongoing business.
    If a customer and a relative call for the same time slot. The customer gets it.
    You sound like another one of these pathetic checkbox idiots who just wants to fill out an inspection report and be done with it. Those are the inspectors we need to drive out of our profession. They only continue the publics bad experience with home inspectors, keep our profession as a joke in the minds of many and allow bad agents to manipulate Buyers.

    "There is a lot more than just giving additional info I would do for a relative that I would not do for a Client . The difference is family and the added liability and extra work I do not take on for strangers."

    Your attitude above is exactly why people hire me after they've already paid someone like you for a service that ended up being useless. Inspectors don't get sued or incur liability because they actually do a good job and provide clients with relevant information. That's one of those great lies lazy inspectors like to promote.
    If you aren't looking at the Condo building as a whole during a Condo inspection and aren't providing Building information in your report then you are NOT providing the client with the information they actually need to know to make an informed decision. Roughly 1/2 of the Condo deals I look at die because of building conditions. Someone has to pay for those building repairs. If you are a paint to paint inspector in terms of Condo's then you are automatically screwing their client. I don't know what its like where you work but around here paint to paint Condo inspectors are considered low life bottom feeders that deserve no respect.
    I spend probably half my time doing consulting work. When you come to understand that educating Buyers is in part a responsibility and a benefit then you might be qualified to carry my ladder.
    Good, responsible inspectors are the last line of defense for a buyer against the sharks in real estate. As inspectors we need to provide Buyers with as much information as possible so they end up less susceptible to the lies they will hear from others.


    You are a pompous ass flying a flag of self righteousness. Boy you are great...just ask you! Come on down and "drive me out of business". Construction guys (like you) are the reason that people need Inspectors. You make me laugh Markus- because you add no value, other than your self proclaimed standard of ethics beyond the scope of our comprehension. I hope that makes you feel better about yourself when you blow your own horn....Now shoo...go troll in your singles over 40 chatroom and tell them how great you are.....


    ADDED BONUS ....I LOVE THIS REVIEW ABOUT YOU ON YELP....REALLY SUMS YOU UP AS A HYPOCRITE:

    Markus while personable and knowledgeable made many unsavory remarks in his chit chat and throughout the inspection used foul language. This was witnessed by not only myself but both relators. Markus is a city inspector and contractor not a home inspector by origination. This is his second career and as such will not have a similar write up of your property as other inspectors where it is neutral and just giving facts. He offers to write another report to go to the sellers but unless you request that upfront there will be delays and headaches. Markus himself acknowledged he had received several complaints about his write up (but clearly failed to adjust based on the clients who were paying him). Again the write up he gave us was excellent for our eyes only ------but as law dictates "if you request an item to be fixed you must send over the report". Because this is his second career Markus could not understand this and has not grasped that very critical fact. Needless to say we could not negotiate any repairs due to his opening sentence. "This house is in very good shape. " He then followed that sentiment for another paragraph but then ended with 5 pages of defects. Atleast 3 were pretty major with repairs needing to be done immediately to the tune of 15,000. There were issues that were defects that had very immediate future needs but the phrasing made it appear that because they werent an issue at present they fell upon us to eat. The sellers only saw that first paragraph about how great their home was and had blinders during negotiations to the other five pages he wrote up on defects. I'd select Markus only if you personally want to know how the house is and want a knowledgeable narrative not to be shared. If his write up has to go to sellers I'd select another inspector to write it up and or represent you in an inspection situation.

    Last edited by chris vis; 10-07-2017 at 06:17 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Oh that's too funny.
    Instead of clarifying your position as a professional; i.e. letting people know you aren't a paint to paint schmuck or that you do work at providing your clients with information you go scouring around to find a bad review. Every good inspector I know has at least one bad review. As we used to say out on the street, if you don't have any CR's you aren't doing your job.
    Anyone who's been in business for a while knows you can't address a review like that no mater the facts.

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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Oh that's too funny.
    Instead of clarifying your position as a professional;
    Marcus,

    I've INTENTIONALLY been staying out of this fight between the two of you ...

    And Chris too ...

    You BOTH should have stopped while you were BEHIND and before you each dug your hole deeper.

    No one standing around watching is even handing you guys shovels ... you are managing to find your own shovels to dig yourselves deeper into the pit you are each so diligently digging.

    If you want to get out of that pit, stop throwing the dirt onto each other and start throwing under your own feet, only then can you ever so slowly get out of where you both have dug yourselves.

    There are good points TO EACH SIDES arguments ... and poor positioning on each side too ... probably mostly through poor communication of what you each are trying to say ... sometimes it is better to remain silent and look like a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: 4 MAINs (to 4 meters) in rusted out conduit in a condominium garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Marcus,

    I've INTENTIONALLY been staying out of this fight between the two of you ...

    And Chris too ...

    You BOTH should have stopped while you were BEHIND and before you each dug your hole deeper.

    No one standing around watching is even handing you guys shovels ... you are managing to find your own shovels to dig yourselves deeper into the pit you are each so diligently digging.

    If you want to get out of that pit, stop throwing the dirt onto each other and start throwing under your own feet, only then can you ever so slowly get out of where you both have dug yourselves.

    There are good points TO EACH SIDES arguments ... and poor positioning on each side too ... probably mostly through poor communication of what you each are trying to say ... sometimes it is better to remain silent and look like a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
    Jerry you are right, but if you look at my original posts, until I was called sleazy and then told he should drive me out of business etc, I only tried to be nice and clarify. That alone took more discipline than I have ...it was very hard to be nice. Gunnar even tried to help me out but this guy insisted on degrading me without knowing the first thing about me. My point may have been badly worded at first, but you and Gunnar were able to see what I meant and offer answers. Even after I clarified nicely I was again degraded. Since I must vindicate myself on this thread, I am a very good Inspector and very highly recommended. The realtors I know all use me on their personal homes and those of their family. To me that says a lot, because they see them all. For the record, I do commercial and residential inspections. The state government chose me to inspect their state commercial offices and the state owned homes of their officers out of all of the Inspectors in Ohio due to reputation and report style. I am no sleaze and have the same or higher code of ethics than most. I have done Inspections for 15 years in my own business and before that I owned a fire/storm damage remodel/construction business. I lost my passion for that construction end when my partner in the business (brother in law) died, and I translated that experience into Inspecting. It allowed me to understand the issues to a point where I could explain most remediation methods and even ballpark costs to cure (mostly required on my commercial end). I do not even know what a "paint to paint" inspector is, it must be Chicago slang...His remarks were highly offensive and I am Sicilian so after sputtering expletives and erasing what I thought were the most insulting parts of my third response....(you think the above was bad....you should have seen what I erased)....here I am.

    I am done with this convo out of respect for you and all of the help you have provided to me to date on quite a variety of things I encountered. I appreciate the answers to my question from those who did. Thanks.


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