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  1. #1
    Clay White's Avatar
    Clay White Guest

  2. #2
    Shannon Guinn's Avatar
    Shannon Guinn Guest

    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Quote Originally Posted by Clay White View Post
    A white conductor to a circuit breaker had black paint on it in an apparent attempt to label it as hot. I've only seen red paint for identification for a hot conductor.....is black colored paint acceptable?

    See 210.5 (C) for branch circ. conductors.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Quote Originally Posted by Shannon Guinn View Post
    See 210.5 (C) for branch circ. conductors.
    Incorrect code reference for the question at hand.

    From the 2005 NEC. (bold and underlining are mine)
    - 200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.
    - - (A) General. The following shall be used only for the grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and 200.7(C):
    - - - (1) A conductor with continuous white or gray covering
    - - - (2) A conductor with three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation
    - - - (3) A marking of white or gray color at the termination
    - - (B) Circuits of Less Than 50 Volts. A conductor with white or gray color insulation or three continuous white stripes or having a marking of white or gray at the termination for circuits of less than 50 volts shall be required to be grounded only as required by 250.20(A).
    - - (C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
    - - - (1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.
    - - - (2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
    - - - (3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous white stripes or by any other means permitted by 400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.
    - - FPN: The color gray may have been used in the past as an ungrounded conductor. Care should be taken when working on existing systems.

    Jerry's note to the above: "at the termination" does not mean "at" and "only at" "the terminal", it means "the entire exposed length which goes to the termination.

    Also note that this applies to all "visible and accessible" locations, which not only includes the visible conductor at its termination between where it is exposed and its terminal, but at each and every other location where it is visible and accessible, i.e., every junction box, pull box, cabinet, etc.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
    Shannon Guinn's Avatar
    Shannon Guinn Guest

    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Incorrect code reference for the question at hand.

    From the 2005 NEC. (bold and underlining are mine)
    - 200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.
    - - (A) General. The following shall be used only for the grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and 200.7(C):
    - - - (1) A conductor with continuous white or gray covering
    - - - (2) A conductor with three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation
    - - - (3) A marking of white or gray color at the termination
    - - (B) Circuits of Less Than 50 Volts. A conductor with white or gray color insulation or three continuous white stripes or having a marking of white or gray at the termination for circuits of less than 50 volts shall be required to be grounded only as required by 250.20(A).
    - - (C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
    - - - (1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.
    - - - (2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
    - - - (3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous white stripes or by any other means permitted by 400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.
    - - FPN: The color gray may have been used in the past as an ungrounded conductor. Care should be taken when working on existing systems.

    Jerry's note to the above: "at the termination" does not mean "at" and "only at" "the terminal", it means "the entire exposed length which goes to the termination.

    Also note that this applies to all "visible and accessible" locations, which not only includes the visible conductor at its termination between where it is exposed and its terminal, but at each and every other location where it is visible and accessible, i.e., every junction box, pull box, cabinet, etc.

    Thanks for correcting me Herr Peck, in my defense, I've been sick. Oh, and by the way wouldn't a simpler answer have been "yes".


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Georgetown, KY
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    536

    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    A simpler answer would have been "Yes!"

    BUT

    Most of us don't like writing in our reports that "Jerry said so".

    So, Jerry provides the background information so we have not only an authoritative source but an understanding of "why" it's that way.

    More should do so.

    I hope you're feeling better now. Being sick is a bummer.

    Erby Crofutt, Georgetown, KY - Read my Blog here: Erby the Central Kentucky Home Inspector B4 U Close Home Inspections www.b4uclose.com www.kentuckyradon.com
    Find on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/B4UCloseInspections

  6. #6
    Bob White's Avatar
    Bob White Guest

    Smile Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Here's an experiment we can try ---

    Insert the words, "because Jerry said so" at the end of a few sentences in your next report and see how many of your clients notice or mention them.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
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    3,177

    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Quote Originally Posted by Erby Crofutt View Post
    ... Jerry provides the background information so we have not only an authoritative source but an understanding of "why" it's that way.

    More should do so.
    Erby - I couldn't agree more. JP deserves our thanks for the amount of time and energy he puts into this board.


  8. #8
    David Banks's Avatar
    David Banks Guest

    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Erby - I couldn't agree more. JP deserves our thanks for the amount of time and energy he puts into this board.
    I second that! Or is it third?


  9. #9
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    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Quote Originally Posted by Clay White View Post
    so then black painting on white conductor to identify the conductor as hot is allowed, thanks!
    As long as ALL of the white conductor you can see is painted, i.e., you don't know it is 'white' to start with , unless you see some scratched off areas.

    "because Jerry said so" ... Thanks a lot guys, trying to set me up to be sued, heh?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Garland, TX
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    605

    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    "because Jerry said so" ... Thanks a lot guys, trying to set me up to be sued, heh?
    Your innocence is protected we agree not use your last name

    badair http://www.adairinspection.com Garland, TX 75042 TREC # 4563
    Commercial-Residential-Construction-EIFS-Infrared Thermography
    life is the random lottery of events followed by numerous narrow escapes

  11. #11
    Carl Eisen's Avatar
    Carl Eisen Guest

    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    So, if I use "because Jerry say's so." I have shifted my liability to Jerry. What a concept )


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Georgetown, KY
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    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Jerry: Simple Answer - Yes.

    Erby Crofutt, Georgetown, KY - Read my Blog here: Erby the Central Kentucky Home Inspector B4 U Close Home Inspections www.b4uclose.com www.kentuckyradon.com
    Find on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/B4UCloseInspections

  13. #13
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    If you take the cover off a panel and depend on what color a wire is to determine if is connected to the right place then you might as well left the cover on the panel. A missing piece of tape or paint is not a problem since only a professional should be in the panel. There are only 4 wires so how screwed up can it get if they are already connected and working properly? This is another mountain out of a mole hill.

    My first experience with a home inspector was about 5 years before I got my HI license. My sister had just gotten her Realtor license and had sold her first house. She asked me attend the buyer inspection as an observer. The HI was a joke and was scared to take the cover off of the electrical panel. I checked the panel for him. She sold the house and I found me a new job when I retired 3 years ago. The field is full of folks with a screwdriver and a truck and no knowledge.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    If you take the cover off a panel and depend on what color a wire is to determine if is connected to the right place then you might as well left the cover on the panel. A missing piece of tape or paint is not a problem since only a professional should be in the panel.
    I agree - only a PROFESSIONAL should be in the panel, and, that being the case (you and I agreeing on that) YOUR ATTITUDE about that CODE REQUIREMENT is entirely UNPROFESSIONAL ...

    Does that then mean that YOU should not be taking covers off panels?

    Your answer ... please.

    There are only 4 wires so how screwed up can it get if they are already connected and working properly? This is another mountain out of a mole hill.
    Not a mole hill. Not a mountain either. EVERY PROFESSIONAL should KNOW that is a CODE requirement - for safety reasons.

    The HI was a joke ...

    ...

    The field is full of folks with a screwdriver and a truck and no knowledge.
    Sounds like you (working as a joke HI) fit that description, then, if you are saying that it does not matter.

    Either you are ... or are not ... a professional.

    A professional DOES NOT advocate doing unprofessional things.

    Are you, therefore, an un-professional?

    The "joke" is either 'you' or 'on you'.

    You decide.

    You might as well be an master HVAC contractor saying that you don't need a vent on vented appliances - sounds just as braggart and just as silly.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Default Re: White conductors permanent markings

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin;28662[B
    ----------------The field is full of folks with a screwdriver and a truck and no knowledge.
    [/b]

    James,

    Now
    This is For Sure. So he needs a 4x1,circuit tester ,flashlight Like YOU!

    How did your post Go ? All I need is a 4x1 screwdriver ,circuit tester ,and a flashlight?

    You still checking those Gas Leaks "I'll use the Flame if Apporate" with matches?

    You are not licensed in North Carolina as a Home Inspector.

    If you do carry a License it would be A Drivers License.

    If you are performing Home Inspections in North Carolina or anywhere else your actions reflect badly on the rest of us trying to perform a real Home Inspection.

    You need to STOP!


    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

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