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Thread: Wet or Damp?

  1. #1
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    Default Wet or Damp?

    Wet or Damp Location?

    (please quote appropriate NEC section with your reply)

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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    From the 2005 NEC. (bold are 2008 changes) (underlining is mine)
    - Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.
    - Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.
    - Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

    Light (luminaire) = Damp Location

    From the 2005 NEC. (bold are 2008 changes)
    - 410.4 Luminaires (Fixtures) in Specific Locations.
    - - (A) Wet and Damp Locations. Luminaires (fixtures) installed in wet or damp locations shall be installed so that water cannot enter or accumulate in wiring compartments, lampholders, or other electrical parts. All luminaires (fixtures) installed in wet locations shall be marked, “Suitable for Wet Locations.” All luminaires (fixtures) installed in damp locations shall be marked, “Suitable for Wet Locations” or “Suitable for Damp Locations.”

    Receptacle = Wet Location

    From the 2005 NEC. (bold are 2008 changes)
    - 406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.
    - - (A) Damp Locations. A receptacle installed outdoors in a location protected from the weather or in other damp locations shall have an enclosure for the receptacle that is weatherproof when the receptacle is covered (attachment plug cap not inserted and receptacle covers closed).
    - - - An installation suitable for wet locations shall also be considered suitable for damp locations.
    - - - A receptacle shall be considered to be in a location protected from the weather where located under roofed open porches, canopies, marquees, and the like, and will not be subjected to a beating rain or water runoff. All 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt nonlocking receptacles shall be listed weather-resistant type.
    - - - - FPN: The types of receptacles covered by this requirement are identified as 5-15, 5-20, 6-15, and 6-20 in ANSI/NEMA WD 6-2002, National Electrical Manufactures Association Standard for Dimensions of Attachment Plugs and Receptacles.
    - - (B) Wet Locations.
    - - - (1) 15- and 20-Ampere Outdoor Receptacles in a Wet Location. 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles installed in a wet location shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof whether or not the attachment plug cap is inserted. All 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt nonlocking receptacles shall be listed weather-resistant type.
    - - - - FPN: The types of receptacles covered by this requirement are identified as 5-15, 5-20, 6-15, and 6-20 in ANSI/NEMA WD 6-2002, National Electrical Manufactures Association Standard for Dimensions of Attachment Plugs and Receptacles.
    - - - - Exception: 15- and 20 ampere, 125- through 250-volt receptacles installed in a wet location and subject to routine high pressure spray washing shall be permitted to have an enclosure that is weatherproof when the attachment plug is removed.
    - - - (2) Other Receptacles. All other receptacles installed in a wet location shall comply with (a) or (b):
    - - - - (a) A receptacle installed in a wet location where the product intended to be plugged into it is not attended while in use shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof with the attachment plug cap inserted or removed.
    - - - - (b) A receptacle installed in a wet location where the product intended to be plugged into it will be attended while in use (e.g., portable tools, and so forth) shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof when the attachment plug is removed.
    - - (C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.
    - - (D) Protection for Floor Receptacles. Standpipes of floor receptacles shall allow floor-cleaning equipment to be operated without damage to receptacles.
    - - (E) Flush Mounting with Faceplate. The enclosure for a receptacle installed in an outlet box flush-mounted on a finished surface shall be made weatherproof by means of a weatherproof faceplate assembly that provides a watertight connection between the plate and the finished surface.

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  3. #3
    David Banks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Damp location. E3902.8 Protected from the weather. A receptacle shall be considered to be in a location protected from the weather where located under roofed open porches, canopies and similar structures not to rain or water runoff.
    E3903.8 Wet or Damp locations for Luminaries. Outside light.

    Both look correct unless you consider rain or runoff water from roof above splashing toward receptacle.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    David,

    From the 2006 IRC.
    - (Electrical Definitions) (underlining is mine)
    - - LOCATION, DAMP. Location protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns and some cold-storage warehouses.
    - - LOCATION, DRY. A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.
    - - LOCATION, WET. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth and locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle-washing areas, and locations exposed to weather.

    To me ... that receptacle is not far enough back, nor high enough, to *only* be exposed to "moderate" degrees of moisture. "Moderate" is not defined, however, it is 'explained' by way of "and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns and some cold-storage warehouses".

    To me, the examples given for "moderate" are indicative of 'no water spray, just condensation'. It will not take much of a 'blowing rain' (wind driven rain) to "saturate" that receptacle with water, which is where this comes into play:
    LOCATION, DAMP. Location protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids ...

    Just my opinion and the reason behind it.

    The light fixture ... it is well protected from "saturation" by wind driven rain, and, if that does get saturated from wind driven rain, you will have more to worry about than just that light fixture.


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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    I concur with JP on this one. Also, even when partially protected (from the elements) exterior ROs on decks, porches and such can get pretty dam wet when folks power-wash or even just hose around those areas. Ever notice how often these codes are violated around the Christmas season due to all of the electrical displays? Ho-Ho-Ho Zap..................

    Jerry McCarthy
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    I don't remember the section, but I read in the NEC that you draw a 45 degree line from the roof. Above the line is damp and below the line is wet.


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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Voss View Post
    I don't remember the section, but I read in the NEC that you draw a 45 degree line from the roof. Above the line is damp and below the line is wet.
    Tim,

    There is no code section for that, but that is what I was applying ... 45 degrees.

    I even go for a higher angle from vertical (maybe 60-75 degrees) because I've seen rain almost horizontal (90 degrees from the vertical) many times. If the receptacle was on the ceiling - damp location, if the receptacle was high on the wall, say within 2 feet of the ceiling and back from the front edge a few feet - damp location.

    Years ago, the NEC said "location protected from the weather or in other damp locations" which to me meant 'if not protected from the weather' it was a "wet location" because it said "protected from the weather" "or other" "damp locations". Thus I always applied "wind driven rain" as the 'protected from the weather or not' factor.

    I suspect that this 'wind driven rain' (or the 45 degrees as you said) came from old seminars or handbooks where they were trying to explain an undefined term. The 45 degrees probably came as a compromise from the people promoting 'horizontal wind driven rain' and from those promoting 'vertical falling rain'. When committees meet, typically the lowest common agreeable point is reached - and that is nothing to strive for, that's just the 'lowest common' ... crap line.

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    This picture was a slide used in the IAEI Analysis International Association of Electrical Inspectors - Working for Peoples' Safety for the 2005 Code, what did that commentary say?

    I think a wet location was mentioned, I see it that way and would not permit that cover to be used!


  9. #9
    David Banks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Thanks Joe. Looking forward to your talk at Tiger Seminar on new regulations as it relates to Electric issues.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Banks View Post
    Thanks Joe. Looking forward to your talk at Tiger Seminar on new regulations as it relates to Electric issues.
    David:

    I am too!, but I only have 3 hours of time at the Tiger show, I will make it interesting and if you have any real beauties let me know, I do have many just have to walk around the corner here in the North End.

    PS: Look for some new surprises from me in the coming months concerning defects.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco View Post
    David:

    I am too!, but I only have 3 hours of time at the Tiger show, I will make it interesting and if you have any real beauties let me know, I do have many just have to walk around the corner here in the North End.

    PS: Look for some new surprises from me in the coming months concerning defects.

    Here are some old post for you.
    Head Banger - Home Inspection & Home Inspector Services For Inspections and Inspectors

    Intersting - InspectionNews.com


  12. #12
    David Banks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco View Post
    David:

    I am too!, but I only have 3 hours of time at the Tiger show, I will make it interesting and if you have any real beauties let me know, I do have many just have to walk around the corner here in the North End.

    PS: Look for some new surprises from me in the coming months concerning defects.

    Here are some old post for you.
    Head Banger - Home Inspection & Home Inspector Services For Inspections and Inspectors
    Intersting - InspectionNews.com


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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco View Post
    Joe,

    I didn't get a picture on that link???

    (Just IAEI home page.)

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    I did not send the link to any picture it is in their power point and analysis, search for the 05 analysis, really got to be careful with that type of question and, the length of replies boggles my mind, the great new toy wireless.

    PS:

    How come you didn't reply on the other thread about the bundle of rope pulled into on fitting.


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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco View Post
    How come you didn't reply on the other thread about the bundle of rope pulled into on fitting.
    What thread? Maybe I missed it?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    The "45 degree rule" is a trade practice, and is found mentioned in the American Electricians' handbook.

    FWIW, various NEMA, and other industry, standards apply a wind to their rain testing. This wind results in the 'rain' falling at about a 15 degree angle. That is to say that a box, even with no cover at all, would likely pass such rain tests if it were set back from the surface by even 1/2". This is not to suggest such as a 'solution;' it's just an illustration of some of the quirks in the testing process.

    Yet ... there are other considerations than simple rain. I often encounter 'ordinary' steel boxes in sheltered outdoor locations, such as we see with that porch light. You know the type, with the knock-outs and little holes. While that box may never see a drop of rain, it often becomes a really nice spider or wasp nest. Whether 'code' requires you to address that part of the 'environment' is a good way to start a debate.


  17. #17
    Joe Tedesco's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    What thread? Maybe I missed it?
    The Inspector's Journal Forums - Is this a common practice in your area?


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Joe,

    I don't post there.

    I was "un-invited" before I ever went there. Mike O' did not get along with me on the ASHI board years ago and specifically "un-invited me" when he was starting his board up.

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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Went back and checked the IAEI PPT show and yes, they state the wall RO is in a "wet location" and the overhead lighting fixture (lumineire) is in a "damp location." I think everybody agreed on that and I put it up because that scenario has always been open to debate.

    Jerry McCarthy
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Went back and checked the IAEI PPT show
    I must be 'search challenged', where did you find it to view it?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    [QUOTE=Jerry McCarthy;29326]Wet or Damp Location?


    Hi,
    This picture you posted helps, my question is: I installed a damp location rated pendant coach style light fixture under a 22" deep porch overhang, the fixture sits back 12" from the overhang edge and the bottom of the fixture is 17" from the ceiling. As a precaution, I put heatshrink tubing over the lamp cord where it enters the top of the lamp and a bead of silicone around the heatshrink tubing. Is this legal or will a driving rain be a problem? The top of the lamp where the cord enters the lamp is only 5" from the ceiling (on a one-link chain between j-box and top of lamp). Should this have been a wet location lamp fixture or is damp location type ok?

    Thank you!

    Mike


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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Baron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Wet or Damp Location?

    Hi,
    This picture you posted helps, my question is: I installed a damp location rated pendant coach style light fixture under a 22" deep porch overhang, the fixture sits back 12" from the overhang edge and the bottom of the fixture is 17" from the ceiling. As a precaution, I put heatshrink tubing over the lamp cord where it enters the top of the lamp and a bead of silicone around the heatshrink tubing. Is this legal or will a driving rain be a problem? The top of the lamp where the cord enters the lamp is only 5" from the ceiling (on a one-link chain between j-box and top of lamp). Should this have been a wet location lamp fixture or is damp location type ok?

    Thank you!

    Mike
    'Wet location'.

    If the fixture was a flush-type ceiling mounted fixture, I could go with a 'damp location', but not with the light fixture hanging down.

    I always ask this question when addressing the location you brought up - Have you ever seen rain blowing horizontally in your area?
    - If the answer is 'No, Never.', then I could go with 'Damp Location'.
    - If the answer is 'Yes, on occasion.', then that would be a 'Wet Location'.

    I've never had anyone ... yet ... tell me they have "NEVER" seen rain blowing horizontally - of course, I have not asked that of anyone from the desert Southwest areas where it 'never' rains ...

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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Miss Jerry M.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    'Wet location'.

    If the fixture was a flush-type ceiling mounted fixture, I could go with a 'damp location', but not with the light fixture hanging down.

    I always ask this question when addressing the location you brought up - Have you ever seen rain blowing horizontally in your area?
    - If the answer is 'No, Never.', then I could go with 'Damp Location'.
    - If the answer is 'Yes, on occasion.', then that would be a 'Wet Location'.

    I've never had anyone ... yet ... tell me they have "NEVER" seen rain blowing horizontally - of course, I have not asked that of anyone from the desert Southwest areas where it 'never' rains ...
    Ok, thanks for the information.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    Miss Jerry M.
    Ditto.

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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Jack,

    Thanks for saying that. I used to have coffee with him every couple of weeks after he moved to my area. We would talk about family, friends, where our profession was going. Don't know if anyone is aware, but he and Bev were married 61 for years.

    Not a week goes by that I don't think about him.

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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Is this new construction?


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Wet or Damp?

    Hi Robert,

    Check Jerry Peck's first answer. It has the code dates.

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