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  1. #1
    Lynn Petrie's Avatar
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    Default 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    I have inspected several homes with both 12/2 wire with and without ground wiring. The problem I am having is how do you explain to the potential buyers about the open grounds that are found at the 3 prong receptacles.

    Most of the time electricians have found that the 3 prong receptacles have the old type of wiring (12/2 without ground) attached to the new 3 prong receptacles.


    How do I write this situation up without scaring the potential buyers or upsetting the sellers and real estate agents.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Lynn - First of all, you have to, in my opinion, get over worrying about upsetting anybody, especially the seller and agents. Just report what you see and let them deal with it.

    It is wrong to replace a 2 prong receptacle outlet with a three prong unless an equipment grounding wire is run, or a gfci is installed with its little sticker that says "no equipment ground".

    I just explain that people install the three-prongs without adding the equipment grounding wire because it's more expensive to add the wire. Or, they don't know any better.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    If you are performing an inspection for the buyer, then you write it up to inform the buyer, your client. Let the realtor and seller worry about themselves. You state your observation, state how it may effect your client, and provide one or more options on what needs to be done to remedy the problem.

    You want to, at least, inform the client that you observed electrical wiring that does not have electrical grounds connected or electrical ground system installed. This is a well documented potential safety shock hazard that can have fatal consequences. You would recommend a qualified licensed professional electrical contractor upgrade the system to include grounding throughout the property.

    Do they have it done? Don't know, don't really care, its their option. You did your job and fulfilled professional obligations

    Of course, at this year's meeting of VAREI (Virginia Association of Real Estate Inspectors) an attendee related a story about how he inspected a FSBO house. The owner was a pretty big guy, a Marine, and was not very happy about the comments made in the inspection report (a hazard of on-site report generation). He came out to the inspector's vehicle and was beating on the car to try to get the inspector out so he could put some Whup-Ass on him. The inspector had to call the police to help him leave the property. I guess he should be thankful to 1) his cell phone service and 2) strong glass.

    Stu

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    What John said. Especially this part: "Lynn - First of all, you have to, in my opinion, get over worrying about upsetting anybody, especially the seller and agents. Just report what you see and let them deal with it."


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    How do I write this situation up without scaring the potential buyers or upsetting the sellers and real estate agents.
    You need to make a decision now, are you going to be an inspector working for your client, telling the truth, and protecting peoples lives or do you want to kneel at the real estate agent altar to protect their deal and your next meal?
    "No man can serve two masters..." You can't have it both ways, either be ethical or not, your choice. Now, you CAN disagree without being disagreeable, but facts are facts and if people get upset, that is their choice.

    Now as to the three wire outlet, I generally tell my clients, the addition of a three wire outlet on a two wire ungrounded system means the outlet is lying to you. It says it is grounded and providing a higher level of safety from electrical shocks but it really doesn't.
    The best way to address it is to replace the wiring, or second best is to replace the three wire outlets with the original 2 wire outlets and add properly grounded outlets where you need them for computers, washers, and such.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    ...second best is to replace the three wire outlets with the original 2 wire outlets...
    I've heard it argued, if memory serves, by someone who shall remain nameless (Jerry Peck), that once the three-prong receptacles have been installed, even incorrectly, that it now is not acceptable to replace them with two-prong receptacles, any more than it would be acceptable to do that on new construction.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    The last time I checked, there were still 2 wire outlets available (not that that makes it right to install) and I would think restoring the original outlets and circuits would be allowed. No way that you could extend or modify, but to maintain would be no different than replacing a broken outlet. IMHO

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    The last time I checked, there were still 2 wire outlets available (not that that makes it right to install) and I would think restoring the original outlets and circuits would be allowed. No way that you could extend or modify, but to maintain would be no different than replacing a broken outlet. IMHO
    I hear what you're saying. It's just that if you are quite literal about things, something my wife complains about, you are replacing a three-prong with a two-prong, and that ain't allowed. Even if it was a mistake to install the three-prong in the first place.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    I never heard that is was not allowed, maybe Jerry or someone with specific code cite will jump in, I am always open to correction IF someone can prove me wrong.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Dallas, Texas

  10. #10
    Jon Randolph's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    A GFCI can still be installed for protection of inhabitants, even without a ground. It will not, however, properly protect sensitive equipment such as computers.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    recommend gfci outlets and tell client--to avoid computers tv and wifes or his vibrator from these outlets


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    From the 2005 NEC (have not installed the 2008 on this computer yet - lazy I guess, I have it on my notebook computer).
    406.3 General Installation Requirements
    - (D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.3(D)(1), (2), and (3) as applicable.
    - - (1) Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where a grounding means exists in the receptacle enclosure or a grounding conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130(C), grounding-type receptacles shall be used and shall be connected to the grounding conductor in accordance with 406.3(C) or 250.130(C).
    - - (2) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.
    - - (3) Nongrounding-Type Receptacles. Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (a), (b), or (c).
    - - - (a) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s).
    - - - (b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s).
    - - - - These receptacles shall be marked “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
    - - - (c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.

    The problem I see in there is that there is no provision for replacing grounding-type receptacles on ungrounded two-wire circuits with nongrounding-type receptacles.

    First it says (D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.3(D)(1), (2), and (3) as applicable. Those are our choices, our only choices.

    (3) Nongrounding-Type Receptacles. Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (a), (b), or (c).
    - (a) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced ...
    - (b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced ...
    - (c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced ...

    So lets to to replacements for grounding type receptacles ...

    (1) Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where a grounding means exists in the receptacle enclosure or a grounding conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130(C), ...

    Okie dokie ... let's go to 250.130(C) ... that tell "how" and "to what" the ground wire is installed to.

    Still NO option to replace a grounding-type receptacle installed on an ungrounded two-wire circuit with a nongrounding-type receptacle ... only a direction on "how" and "to what" the ground wire is to be installed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    A lifetime ago, I attended courses in Real Estate. One word was drummed into my feeble mind, and I still hear it in use, although not as frequently as it used to be.
    The word is "fiduciary".

    From Meriam Webster:
    2fiduciary
    Function:adjective Etymology:Latin fiduciarius, from fiducia confidence, trust, from fidereDate:circa 1641 : of, relating to, or involving a confidence or trust: as a: held or founded in trust or confidence b: holding in trust c: depending on public confidence for value or currency <fiduciary fiat money>

    The point being..... We ALL have a Fiduciary responsibility to our CLIENTS. The people that sign your paycheck. The names and faces change, but your responsibilities remain the same. They are hiring you because they TRUST you to have their back. YOU are looking out for their best interest. To do any less would be to abandon your fiduciary responsibilities. It's all about ethics and how well you want to sleep at night.

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    (a) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s).
    This would appear to make it okie dokie to replace a non-grounding outlet with another non-grounding type receptacle, agreed?

    So, if the electricians helper picks up a grounded receptacle and connects the two wires and says whoops, wrong one. Would that mean he could not then install the correct non-grounded receptacle????

    I see there is no explicit permission granted here to fix a screw-up, but maybe common sense should come into play... IMHO.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Dallas, Texas

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    This would appear to make it okie dokie to replace a non-grounding outlet with another non-grounding type receptacle, agreed?
    Agreed.

    So, if the electricians helper picks up a grounded receptacle and connects the two wires and says whoops, wrong one. Would that mean he could not then install the correct non-grounded receptacle????
    If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make noise?

    I see there is no explicit permission granted here to fix a screw-up, but maybe common sense should come into play... IMHO.
    I agree ... but ... once the screw-up has been left in place as 'good' and then caught later, possibly even years later, is it okay to 'screw-it-back-up' by not doing it right?

    I would that that "common sense" would say "No. Fix it correct this time."

    Ahhh ... that old "common sense" ... it means what one thinks it should mean, and means how one thinks about things ... what is "common sense" to one is 'WTF?' to another.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #16
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    The purpose of having different configurations for receptacles is so you can not plug a device into a receptacles that is not wired for the plug on the device. A 3 wire receptacle on a 2 wire circuit is wrong. Replacing the wrong 3 wire receptacles with a 2 wire makes it right again. There is nothing that requires a seller to rewire a house that was wired per the code in effect when the house was built. It is a violation when the wrong receptacles are installed on a wiring system. The 2 wire receptacles prohibit a device that needs a ground to be plugged in. How to deal with that is up to the buyer but it is not an item for the repair list.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    How to deal with that is up to the buyer but it is not an item for the repair list.
    It is for the repair list.

    Question for you James: You go into an older home (say 1960s or older but with a grounded wiring system) and find nice new receptacles in all the rooms, including the bathrooms and kitchens ... what should you check for and what would you write up?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  18. #18
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    I check in the panel for grounds and then go from there.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    James,

    "then go from there" to where?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  20. #20
    Steve Lowery's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    After all of that , I suggest , the receptacle tester told you what to report. Open ground. An electrician is called for and "should' know what to do. He has a living to protect too.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    lynn--go to Electrical installation- Converting from 2 to 3 prong receptacles as rod stewart once sang between marring fine ladies--every picture tells a story---give it to client if that will help-----but recommend a licenced electrician evaluate in report


  22. #22
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    James,

    "then go from there" to where?
    If no grounding conductors are found in the panel then I suggest that any 3 wire receptacles be replaced with 2 wire receptacles even if they show a ground with a tester.

    Next question please!


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    I think this thread is going overboard. Not overboard on the issue, but overboard on the inspectors observations and responsibility for reporting.

    An inspector is not required to dissasemble any outlets to determine if the feed has a ground wire, or if the ground wire is connected to the outlet.

    The inspector's report should simply state:

    Observation: Ungrounded outlets were observed in blah, blah, blah.
    Analysis: An ungrounded outlet is unsafe. Repair is required.
    Recommendation: Contact a licensed electrician for safety repairs.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    If no grounding conductors are found in the panel then I suggest that any 3 wire receptacles be replaced with 2 wire receptacles even if they show a ground with a tester.

    Next question please!
    James,

    Next question it is ...

    Going back to the "first" question ...

    I asked "older home (say 1960s or older but with a grounded wiring system) and find nice new receptacles in all the rooms", starting with that statement - "grounded wiring system" - "all new receptacles" - then asked:

    "what should you check for and what would you write up?"

    You first said you would check the panel for grounds ... but I had already said 'it was' a grounded system.

    So ... "what should you check for and what would you write up?" ... based on the stated assumptions: older 1960's home - grounded system - new receptacles in all rooms.

    What would you check for at receptacles, expect to find, or not find, in the following rooms:

    - a bedroom?

    - a bathroom?

    - a kitchen?

    - a living room?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    I'm not sure if this was where somebody was going with this....

    If/when I get grounded receptacles and few or no grounds in the panel I will always pop a cover plate or two in various places to see if they've 'jumped' the neutral to ground to fool our testers.

    That issue by itself if bad enough but it's also a clue that somebody had no idea and/or care what they were doing. Given that so much of an electrical system is hidden from us I feel like we need to do all we can to gather clues. True, it's technically beyond what we have to do but with something so dangerous I think it's our duty to do what we can to find out all we can.


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    Cool Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    James, I believe what Jerry is trying to say is that you should check all the outlets for correct polarity then check for Arc fault breakers in the bed rooms, GFCI protection in the bathrooms, kitchen and garage, have no idea for the living room. However Jerry is WRONG, the home owner is under NO obligation to bring anything up to code. The home owner can replace ANYTHING he wants to the house and is under NO obligation to upgrade or get permission from the city. How ever if a licensed electrician replaces over 40% of a system he must bring it up to current codes.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    ...The home owner can replace ANYTHING he wants to the house and is under NO obligation to upgrade or get permission from the city...
    Wow. Is that just in Mustang, or, like, all over?

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    James, I believe what Jerry is trying to say is that you should check all the outlets for correct polarity then check for Arc fault breakers in the bed rooms, GFCI protection in the bathrooms, kitchen and garage, have no idea for the living room. However Jerry is WRONG, the home owner is under NO obligation to bring anything up to code. The home owner can replace ANYTHING he wants to the house and is under NO obligation to upgrade or get permission from the city. How ever if a licensed electrician replaces over 40% of a system he must bring it up to current codes.
    Tony,

    You are so close to being right about what I was asking that I'll have to give that one to you (in this case, being that close is 'good enough').

    However, now that I've given that one to you for being so close (no, I was not including testing for AFCI, but otherwise you were there, you were *that* close to being correct) ... you are *sooooo wrong* in your answer.

    Heck, I had even posted the code in this thread already, all you (and James) had to do was read it.

    ( This is unfair, this is just way to easy and way too much fun. )

    (I've added bold and underlining for you)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the 2005 NEC (have not installed the 2008 on this computer yet - lazy I guess, I have it on my notebook computer).
    406.3 General Installation Requirements
    - (D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.3(D)(1), (2), and (3) as applicable.
    - - (2) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.
    Yessiree ... that is one of only two, maybe three, retroactive REQUIREMENTS in the NEC.

    You have an old 1960 house, no GFCI protection in the bathroom ... no problemo (other than the standard recommendation that GFCI protection should be in all wet areas, including bathrooms, etc.)

    Now, however, you take what I stated "nice new receptacles in all the rooms" ... by golly, by gum, guess what you have to (YEP - ARE REQUIRED TO) do? Yessireee, you *are required* to install GFCI protection AT ALL receptacles you replaced which ARE NOW (the current code in effect, not the old code it was constructed under) required to have GFCI protection in the current code.

    And that *is not* a 2008 change, that goes back to the 1990s or earlier (earlier if I remember correctly).

    This one is from 1996. (bold is mine)
    210-7. Receptacles and Cord Connectors
    - (d) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with (1), (2), and (3) below as applicable.
    - - (2) Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    This is too easy. 406.3 (D) (2) say that you must replace a GFCI receptacle with a GFCI receptacle. It says nothing about a required upgrade. Jerry is writing his own code again.

    Next question please....


  30. #30
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    This is too easy. 406.3 (D) (2) say that you must replace a GFCI receptacle with a GFCI receptacle. It says nothing about a required upgrade. Jerry is writing his own code again.

    Next question please....
    Sorry James, you are totally incorrect.

    210-7. Receptacles and Cord Connectors (Jerry's note: this sections covers, obviously, receptacles and cord connectors.)
    - (d) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with (1), (2), and (3) below as applicable. (Jerry's note: *IF* you are "replacing" a receptacle, this section covers those replacements.)
    - - (2) Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code. (Jerry's note: "Where replacements are made at receptacle outlets", i.e., when you replace a receptacle outlet, "that are required to be so protected", i.e., that are required to be GFCI protected, now, going back to the first thing it says here - "Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles SHALL be provided", i.e., you SHALL provide GFCI protection (which is what I said, not necessarily a GFCI receptacle) for ANY receptacle which is replaced where GFCI protection is now required IN THIS CODE.)

    This is from my 1993 NEC Handbook. Don't believe me, maybe you won't believe this either. So be it.

    (referring to 210-7(d) Replacements)

    "This paragraph is new in the 1993 NEC. It requires replacement receptacles to be GFCI protected if GFCI protection is required in the current Code . For example, if a kitchen was designed in accordance with the 1984 NEC, GFCI-protected receptacles was not required. However, if a replacement receptacle is now required that within 6 feet of the kitchen sink, the replacement receptacle would be required to be GFCI type or connected to the load side of a GFCI-type receptacle, or be protected by a GFCI-type circuit breaker."

    From the 1993 NEC Handbook.

    Read it and weep, because apparently you really don't care and your clients suffer as a result of your inactions, just like Tony's clients suffer as a result of his inactions, or actions, depending on which they are.

    These could be considered acts of "omission" or "commission" depending on how they were addressed. Did you unintentionally "omit" doing this out of lack of knowledge, or, did you intentionally "commit" doing this even though you know better. In one, E&O might cover it, in the other, E&O would not.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    I care about my clients more than you can imagine and I protect them from people like you who have only one focus which is to be right. I provide my clients with facts so they can make a mature, informed decision. Some of the houses with ungrounded systems are old junkers but some are historic masterpieces. A house with old wiring is not a problem if the buyer knows what they are getting. It would be a shame to scare someone from the house of their dream just to prove I can. I think the reason we can never agree is because we have different opinions of what a home inspection should be. My goal is to provide an honest assessment of the house while your goal seems to be to point out all problems as major and the best way to fix the house is to tear it down and start over. As usual with folks in my position I give so the thread will end. You are right as usual!

    Last edited by James Duffin; 01-09-2008 at 08:58 PM.

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    the horse is $%&^#$ dead-----take care of your client in the best way you can--period


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    James,

    Your implication is that if an HI presents things truthfully and correctly to their client that their reason is to scare their client, you are quite wrong with that assumption.

    The difference between telling your client their 'electrical system is ungrounded' and telling your client that their 'electrical system is ungrounded and giving them back up documentation with requirements for things found' is only ... that you gave them back up documentation with requirements for things found.

    Providing back up documentation does not affect giving "honest assessment of the house", in fact, it provides the highest level of honesty.

    You said "while your goal seems to be to point out all problems as major and the best way to fix the house ... " and that part is correct, you also added "... is to tear it down and start over.", yeah, *in some cases* that is what is needed. Like you said "Some of the houses with ungrounded systems are old junkers ... ", that is putting it nicely for some of them.

    Heck, many "old junkers" can be saved.

    However, some are beyond hope.

    My goal it not to 'prove' I am right when I call something out ... my goal is to learn enough 'to be able to call it right'.

    Hopefully, that would be your goal too, and everyone else's.

    I only have to 'prove' it when someone, like you do, keeps pushing and saying that what is correct is wrong, there is no response other than to 'prove' what is correct - that's not my goal, that's my back up.

    You said: "This is too easy. 406.3 (D) (2) say that you must replace a GFCI receptacle with a GFCI receptacle. It says nothing about a required upgrade. Jerry is writing his own code again."

    I offered back up for my position ... now its your turn to offer back up for yours.

    Or do you just go around stating 'your opinion', doing so without back up? There goes James - writing his own code again.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 01-10-2008 at 05:51 AM.
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  34. #34

    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Still NO option to replace a grounding-type receptacle installed on an ungrounded two-wire circuit with a nongrounding-type receptacle ... only a direction on "how" and "to what" the ground wire is to be installed.
    Jerry:

    Your logic is a bit flawed in your observations regarding the replacement of receptacles. It is myopic to look at one 3-prong grounded outlet that was unsafely installed on a 12/2 circuit without grounding, and state that it can’t be returned to a 2-prong nongrounding-type receptacle.

    When the trade out to the 3-prong was originally made, it violated the NEC which states “Approval. The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved.”

    The NEC deals with correct installations and does not deal with each and every mis-installation and methods used to correct them. We must look at the bigger picture of the circuit in its entirety, and not the individual receptacle as we make out judgments. Therefore, correcting the wrong with a right is a perfectly acceptable course of action and converting back to the original 2-prong nongrounding-type receptacle is a completely acceptable solution, given the design of the original circuit.

    P.S. Thanks for taking the time to share the actual verbiage of the NEC, as it helps to educate those inspectors who don’t have the source to refer upon.

    Michael Leavitt
    Orem, Utah
    801-225-8020
    Michael@TheHomeInspector.com
    www.TheHomeInspector.com - The official website of Michael Leavitt & Co Inspections, Inc.
    www.DeckFailure.com - The Official Website of Michael Leavitt & Co Inspections


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    Thumbs down Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Jerry, You keep on forgetting the only people that must comply with the NEC is licensed personal, No one else is under those guidelines except when the add on or upgrade requires a building permit and is contracted out. Changing out your outlets, lights, switches, dishwasher, disposal, or anything else you want to do to your OWN HOUSE you can do with NO interference by the MAN. The NEC is just like our SOP when you ( HIRE A CONTRACTOR ) to do a project THEY MUST comply with the NEC to protect the public. If you try to tell me the home owner that I must BRING MY HOUSE UP TO CODE, YOUR DEAD WRONG, Home owners DO NOT HAVE TO KNOW ANY CODES to maintain their houses. Jerry, if your trying to tell these GOOD Inspectors that they must write up new outlets and switches on a remodeled house because there are no GFIC outlets or AFCI breakers present, then your steering them down a destructive path. Jerry, if you write that the house is unsafe, Not to Code, improperly installed outlets, or what ever causes the buyer to NOT BUY the property. Then, you better have more than the NEC hand book with you when the seller sues you, because the owner is not under the NEC requirements.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Wrong Tony, the HOUSE is under the code and the person performing repairs is responsible to make sure the WORK conforms to the code in effect.
    Just because the code, municipality or AHJ allows the work to be performed by the homeowner does not mean they can do anything they like to a structure.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

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    Talking Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Thank you for your opinion Jim, and that is just what it is your opinion. Although you are correct some what as to the house being under the codes jurisdiction of how it should be or in your words "the WORK conforms to the code in effect. The home owner can do ANYTHING to that house as long as it is reflective to the codes when the house was built. He can also repair ANYTHING he wants to as long as it is reflective to the codes when the house was built. Now if you would read my post I did NOT say the owner could build on to or change the structure without getting a building permit. However in the GREAT USA a man can do WHATEVER HE PLEASES to HIS house as long as his neighbors don't tell on him and I mean ANYTHING. HOWEVER when he goes to sale the house that's were we get paid to go in and make sure what he did is safe and sound, be it by codes,or common since.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    However in the GREAT USA a man can do WHATEVER HE PLEASES to HIS house as long as his neighbors don't tell on him and I mean ANYTHING.
    Tony, you are correct, as long as you don't get caught, a person can do anything... bank robbery included.
    Of course, I think that we are not talking about what a person can get away with but what the law is in this respect.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    ...a man can do WHATEVER HE PLEASES to HIS house as long as his neighbors don't tell on him and I mean ANYTHING.
    Tony - It sounds like there's something you've done to your house that you don't want your neighbors to know about. It's ok. It'll do you good to get if off your chest. We won't tell.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Tony - It sounds like there's something you've done to your house that you don't want your neighbors to know about. It's ok. It'll do you good to get if off your chest. We won't tell.
    John,

    I was planning on staying out of this one, but ... Tony flips houses ... (at least he used to, I think he still does).

    Now think what his statement means.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Talking Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Thanks John, your right, I changed out all my outlets with new ones and did not up grade the gfic's in the garage. I installed a ceiling fan in my garage without a permit. I pig tailed 2 circuits in my panel box into one breaker. I changed out the circulating pump on my water heater without raising my water heater 18 inches above the garage floor and I don't have a permit for the alarm system. I also gave my wife the biggest diamond ring you ever saw for Christmas. Damn that felt good.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    I also gave my wife the biggest diamond ring you ever saw for Christmas.
    Tony,

    I don't know why you post things like that, but, ...

    ... what ta heck ...

    ... betcha we all know where ya got it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Smile Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    John I know I'm right, Most home owners don't know anything about permits or codes, they start a building project and unless the neighbors complain they just build. If that's against the law that is not for me to decide. My job is to see if what he builds is safe and sound not check it against codes.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    John I know I'm right, Most home owners don't know anything about permits or codes, they start a building project and unless the neighbors complain they just build. If that's against the law that is not for me to decide. My job is to see if what he builds is safe and sound not check it against codes.
    Maybe where you are that stuff flies, but "legally" it doesn't!

    Ask your insurance carrier if after you change your outlets yourself and the house burns down, are they going to cover you?



    The short answer is no because "whoever" did the work didn't follow the code which if logic serves would make it a "code violation"!

    In response to the bold portion of the quote above: Ignorance of the law does not constitute a defense.

    As to the original question, you write up the condition and I would and have made a notation that the repairs may include total rewiring of the home and this should be addressed prior to purchase, or something to that effect.

    Incidentally, I have run into this very thing several times. The home either got rewired or my Clients didn't buy it.

    Eric Van De Ven Magnum Inspections Inc. (772) 214-9929
    www.magnuminspections.com
    I still get paid to be suspicious when I got nothing to be suspicious about!

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Van De Ven View Post
    Ask your insurance carrier if after you change your outlets yourself and the house burns down, are they going to cover you?
    Insurance companies can make threats all they like to scare people but generally if they take the premiums from you to insure the house they are on the hook. It's on them to check out the house they are insuring.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Insurance companies can make threats all they like to scare people but generally if they take the premiums from you to insure the house they are on the hook. It's on them to check out the house they are insuring.
    Matt,
    That is just not true. Call your insurance agent and ask them. I have called and spoken to several. If there were a problem and an investigation was done by the insurance company and they found something wrong, it is called a "contributing factor" then they have a way out.

    If you as the homeowner did the repair, you are out of luck. If it was a contractor, then you have to go after them, if they are still around.

    Eric Van De Ven Magnum Inspections Inc. (772) 214-9929
    www.magnuminspections.com
    I still get paid to be suspicious when I got nothing to be suspicious about!

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    The scenario you describe is rare.... even in your own words - "if" doesn't exactly sound like it happens all the time.

    Of course the agent is going to tell you that if you flat out ask them.

    I have friends in the insurance biz and have had this discussion with them many times. In general, it's very rare. The insurance company has to prove specifially what caused the fire and prove that you did it and knew it was wrong when you did it. All of that is a tough case to make from a pile of ashes.

    It's in the best interest of the companies to make you think as you do but it's just not reality.

    I'm not saying it never happens but it's just a lot more complex than it sounds.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Sorry James, you are totally incorrect.

    210-7. Receptacles and Cord Connectors (Jerry's note: this sections covers, obviously, receptacles and cord connectors.)
    - (d) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with (1), (2), and (3) below as applicable. (Jerry's note: *IF* you are "replacing" a receptacle, this section covers those replacements.)
    - - (2) Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code. (Jerry's note: "Where replacements are made at receptacle outlets", i.e., when you replace a receptacle outlet, "that are required to be so protected", i.e., that are required to be GFCI protected, now, going back to the first thing it says here - "Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles SHALL be provided", i.e., you SHALL provide GFCI protection (which is what I said, not necessarily a GFCI receptacle) for ANY receptacle which is replaced where GFCI protection is now required IN THIS CODE.)

    This is from my 1993 NEC Handbook. Don't believe me, maybe you won't believe this either. So be it.

    (referring to 210-7(d) Replacements)

    "This paragraph is new in the 1993 NEC. It requires replacement receptacles to be GFCI protected if GFCI protection is required in the current Code . For example, if a kitchen was designed in accordance with the 1984 NEC, GFCI-protected receptacles was not required. However, if a replacement receptacle is now required that within 6 feet of the kitchen sink, the replacement receptacle would be required to be GFCI type or connected to the load side of a GFCI-type receptacle, or be protected by a GFCI-type circuit breaker."

    From the 1993 NEC Handbook.

    Read it and weep, because apparently you really don't care and your clients suffer as a result of your inactions, just like Tony's clients suffer as a result of his inactions, or actions, depending on which they are.

    These could be considered acts of "omission" or "commission" depending on how they were addressed. Did you unintentionally "omit" doing this out of lack of knowledge, or, did you intentionally "commit" doing this even though you know better. In one, E&O might cover it, in the other, E&O would not.
    Sorry for the delay in replying. Below is the section of the 2005 code about replacing GFCI recepatcles. It only says you have to replace a GFCI device with another GFCI device and not a regular receptacle. The old codes Jerry was talking about are not in effect at this time so I am not sure why he brought them up. My area is still using the 2005 NEC.


    (D) Replacements.
    Replacement of receptacles shall comply
    with 406.3(D)(1), (D)(2), and (D)(3) as applicable.
    (1) Grounding-Type Receptacles.


    Where a grounding
    means exists in the receptacle enclosure or a grounding
    conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130(C),
    grounding-type receptacles shall be used and shall be
    connected to the grounding conductor in accordance
    with 406.3(C) or 250.130(C).
    (2) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters.


    Ground-fault
    circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided
    where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are
    required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.

    As you can see there is no mention of an upgrade when a replacement is made to a non-GFCI device in a required location. Read it and weep big guy!


    Last edited by James Duffin; 01-11-2008 at 05:37 PM. Reason: more info...

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    The scenario you describe is rare.... even in your own words - "if" doesn't exactly sound like it happens all the time.

    Of course the agent is going to tell you that if you flat out ask them.

    I have friends in the insurance biz and have had this discussion with them many times. In general, it's very rare. The insurance company has to prove specifically what caused the fire and prove that you did it and knew it was wrong when you did it. All of that is a tough case to make from a pile of ashes.

    It's in the best interest of the companies to make you think as you do but it's just not reality.

    I'm not saying it never happens but it's just a lot more complex than it sounds.
    "If" also means it could happen. It is something I don't want to have to worry about. I would strongly advise others to give it some thought.

    It has happened. It happened to an individual whose home I inspected, but my Client backed out. The owner contacted me and asked what he should do. He made the repairs himself and there was a fire, albeit a small one, in his garage. He didn't fully connect a double lug that he repaired and it arched and caught on fire. He had to replace the panel as well as some other wiring. He thought is insurance company would cover it. They sent someone out to determine the repairs and costs and the guy said "It caught on fire because this splice here has the wrong size wire going to the breaker. Who did this?" Of course, the homeowner said he did the repairs and that was the end of that.

    It also happened after hurricane Andrew. On the news, they showed pictures of several peoples roofs where the decking wasn't nailed down properly. Most of the nails missed the truss. Some of those homes still haven't been rebuilt because the insurance company refused to pay due to the fact that the roofs were not installed as per the code or manufacturers specifications.

    Eric Van De Ven Magnum Inspections Inc. (772) 214-9929
    www.magnuminspections.com
    I still get paid to be suspicious when I got nothing to be suspicious about!

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    Sorry for the delay in replying. Below is the section of the 2005 code about replacing GFCI receptacles. It only says you have to replace a GFCI device with another GFCI device and not a regular receptacle. The old codes Jerry was talking about are not in effect at this time so I am not sure why he brought them up. My area is still using the 2005 NEC.


    (D) Replacements.
    Replacement of receptacles shall comply
    with 406.3(D)(1), (D)(2), and (D)(3) as applicable.
    (1) Grounding-Type Receptacles.


    Where a grounding
    means exists in the receptacle enclosure or a grounding
    conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130(C),
    grounding-type receptacles shall be used and shall be
    connected to the grounding conductor in accordance
    with 406.3(C) or 250.130(C).
    (2) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters.


    Ground-fault
    circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided
    where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are
    required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.


    As you can see there is no mention of an upgrade when a replacement is made to a non-GFCI device in a required location. Read it and weep big guy!

    You might want to re-read the following:
    (2) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters.




    Ground-fault

    circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided
    where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are
    required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.

    Elsewhere in this code would be:
    From the 2005 NEC (National Electric code)

    210. Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.

    FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel on feeders.
    (A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through () shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
    (1) Bathrooms
    (2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use
    Exception No. 1 to (2): Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
    Exception No. 2 to (2): A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.8(A)(6), (A)(8), or (A)().
    Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.(A)(2) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G)
    (3) Outdoors
    Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with 426.2.
    Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).
    (4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
    (5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like
    Exception No. 1 to (5): Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
    Exception No. 2 to (5): A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.8(A)(6), (A)(8), or (A)().
    Exception No. 3 to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
    (6) Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces
    (8) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks — where the receptacles are installed within 1. m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink
    () Boathouses
    (B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (5) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:
    (1) Bathrooms
    (2) Commercial and institutional kitchens — for the purposes of this section, a kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking
    (3) Rooftops
    (4) Outdoors in public spaces—for the purpose of this section a public space is defined as any space that is for use by, or is accessible to, the public

    Exception to (3) and (4): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied from a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426.
    (5) Outdoors, where installed to comply with 210.63
    (C) Boat Hoists. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided for outlets that supply boat hoists installed in dwelling unit locations and supplied by 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits.

    Eric Van De Ven Magnum Inspections Inc. (772) 214-9929
    www.magnuminspections.com
    I still get paid to be suspicious when I got nothing to be suspicious about!

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    (2) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters.
    Ground-fault
    circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided
    where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are

    required to be so protected elsewhere in this
    Code.


    James, not to defend Jerry (since he is a big boy and is quite adept at defending his own positions) but did you read the last portion of the code you posted?
    I read it to say that you have to put GFCI's anywhere that they are required when you make replacements. It does NOT say replace GFCI outlets with GFCI's.

    I am no expert in the NEC, but from what you posted it seems pretty clear that you have to put GFCI protected outlets anywhere they are required when you are replacing that outlet. (i.e. if the outlet in the bathroom breaks and you have to replace it with a new one, then it now is required to be a GFCI)


    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    As you can see there is no mention of an upgrade when a replacement is made to a non-GFCI device in a required location. Read it and weep big guy!
    James,

    Apparently ... you can't read either????

    Did you read what I posted from the 1993 NEC Handbook?

    If you did, you would not have posted your last post.

    If you did not ... maybe that is your problem? Don't know and at this point really don't care what your problem is.

    I've pointed out to all what is right and what the intent is, if you want to continue to delude yourself - so be it.

    All I can do it try and make so you don't take others down with you.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Dang!

    ALL three of us posted at 8:43 pm!

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  54. #54
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    I don't think I am the one disillusioned here about their value to humanity. I have the opinion of our local AHJ if push comes to shove. Jerry is good but some of his opinions are way off base when it comes to real life. I never saw the word "Shall" in the code reference and you know how the NEC likes to use the word "Shall" when they require you to do something.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    (2) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters.
    Ground-fault
    circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided
    where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are

    required to be so protected elsewhere in this
    Code.
    This is from your post of the code... Notice that shall there?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Jim,

    James like to accuse me of 'writing my own code', but here he is 'writing is own code' ... and he refuses our help.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    This is from your post of the code... Notice that shall there?
    I know in my post where it came from. The 2005 NEC CD!

    Eric Van De Ven Magnum Inspections Inc. (772) 214-9929
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    I still get paid to be suspicious when I got nothing to be suspicious about!

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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Lynn, Here is the how I describe open ground outlets for receptacles with 12/2 or 14/2 wiring that do not have a ground wire.

    Some of the homes outlets are ungrounded. This is common in older homes where the branch circuit wiring has only two wires and not a third ground wire. In most cases, very few people ground there receptacles in an old house unless there is an appliance that relies on grounding. Any appliance with a three-prong plug relies on grounding.

    Installing GFCI outlets is an acceptable alternative to grounding. However a home computer dissipates static charges through the ground wire . The GFCI solution will not be helpful here, you would need to ground the outlet.

    You can describe this in many different ways, this is just the best way so far that I have found. Hope this helps.


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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent Tarter View Post
    Lynn, Here is the how I describe open ground outlets for receptacles with 12/2 or 14/2 wiring that do not have a ground wire.

    Some of the homes outlets are ungrounded. This is common in older homes where the branch circuit wiring has only two wires and not a third ground wire. In most cases, very few people ground there receptacles in an old house unless there is an appliance that relies on grounding. Any appliance with a three-prong plug relies on grounding.

    Installing GFCI outlets is an acceptable alternative to grounding. However a home computer dissipates static charges through the ground wire . The GFCI solution will not be helpful here, you would need to ground the outlet.

    You can describe this in many different ways, this is just the best way so far that I have found. Hope this helps.
    That sounds a little bit "friendly" to me.

    Attached is a page from an actual report.
    The home was built in 1950 and has all of the "goodies"

    The end result was that the home got completely re-wired at a cost of $15,000.00.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Eric Van De Ven Magnum Inspections Inc. (772) 214-9929
    www.magnuminspections.com
    I still get paid to be suspicious when I got nothing to be suspicious about!

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    Question Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    So Jerry, what your telling us is that if you go into a 1950's house with brand new 2 prong outlets and switches or a 1980's house with brand new 3 prong outlets, switches and ceiling fans you would call it out for further evaluation by a licensed electrician unless it was inspected by the city and proof was there by the approved sticker or proof by the work order of the licensed electrical company regardless if the outlets were correct?


  61. #61
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    you would call it out for further evaluation by a licensed electrician
    Why would you call it out for "further evaluation"?

    The HI should be capable of giving their professional opinion on what they see is wrong, in which case the licensed electrician *comes in and corrects it* ... there is no need for them to "evaluate" it, that is YOUR job, that is what YOU (the HI) are paid to do.

    If the HI does not feel competent inspecting and calling stuff like that out, the HI should *not even attempt to imply* 'that they are "inspecting" it' - simply tell your client to "have the electrical system inspected by a licensed electrician", and give your reason why you *did not inspect it*.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Question Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Jerry you did not answer the question. So you would write the 2 houses as defective and in need of repair just because you don't know who did the re wiring. Is that correct?


  63. #63
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Normally when a HI writes up a defect that involves a code issue the seller will call the local AHJ to confirm that it is indeed a problem that needs to be repaired. For this reason if I have a question I call I find out what they think about the situation. In the case of having to install GFCI devices in a house that the original wiring was 2-wire ungrounded romex when the 2-wire devices are replaced they told me when I called this week that as long as you were replacing an existing receptacle you could replace it with another ungrounded receptacle. If you add a receptacle in a bathroom, kitchen, outside, garage, etc, then you have to add GFCI protection. So in the area I cover in NC you do not have to do an upgrade to replace a receptacle in a protected area. Before I started writing up some of the stuff that is posted on this board I would check with your AHJ to keep from embarassing yourself. I always suggest that an ungrounded wiring system be upgraded and that GFCI devices be added for safety reasons but the suggestion is in the body of the report and not in the summary section as a repair.


  64. #64
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    Before I started writing up some of the stuff that is posted on this board I would check with your AHJ to keep from embarassing yourself.
    Or, better yet, have the code handy to back up your position, and, if anyone is "embarrassing" themselves, it ends up being the AHJ - because if they disagreed with you, they would be disagreeing with the stated code, and what was stated as the intent of the code when that section was added.

    Chose to ignore it at your own risk ... which is akin to saying 'inspect at your own risk'

    After all, HIs DO "inspect at their own risk" regardless of everything else.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  65. #65
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    Default Re: 12/2 with ground and 12/2 wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    Jerry you did not answer the question.
    Tony,

    I *DID* answer your question.

    You stated: (bold and underlining are mine) "So Jerry, what your telling us is that if you go into a 1950's house with brand new 2 prong outlets and switchesor a 1980's house with brand new 3 prong outlets, switches and ceiling fans you would call it out for further evaluation by a licensed electrician unless it was inspected by the city and proof was there by the approved sticker or proof by the work order of the licensed electrical company regardless if the outlets were correct?"

    I answered it with "Why would you call it out for "further evaluation"?". I thought that was a pretty plain - *NO* I would not call it out for further evaluation.

    Regarding the rest of your *statement* ... EVERY house constructed where I inspect *is already* inspected by the city or county.

    As everyone, er, 'most', here already know, because it has been inspected and is signed off by a city or county does not in any way mean or even indicate that the work is/was done correctly. That is what keeps private inspectors in business.

    So you would write the 2 houses as defective and in need of repair just because you don't know who did the re wiring. Is that correct?
    It does not matter *who* did the wiring or re-wiring, nor does it matter if it was inspected or not, neither means anything in regard to whether or not the work is 'correct' or 'incorrect'.

    If you are trying to ask a question related to that, make it into a meaningful question which I can understand and answer. This is not like a policeman giving a traffic ticket and needing to know who was driving the speeding car ... in this case, you only need to know that the car was speeding - who was driving it does not matter.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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