Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Jerome W. Young's Avatar
    Jerome W. Young Guest

    Default modified extension cord

    I think I know the answer to this already, but i want to hear it from everyone else as well. What is a technical way to describe the problem with cutting an extension cord and using it as a service wire for a dishwasher? Wire sizing etc...

    THANKS!

    Jerome

    This was a renovation on an $850 ,000 condo. GO FIGURE

    Similar Threads:
    Inspection Referral SOC

  2. #2
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    NEC 422.16 (b) (2) says this.....



    (2) Built-in Dishwashers and Trash Compactors.
    Built-in
    dishwashers and trash compactors shall be permitted to be
    cord-and-plug connected with a flexible cord identified as
    suitable for the purpose in the installation instructions of
    the appliance manufacturer where all of the following conditions
    are met.
    (1) The flexible cord shall be terminated with a groundingtype
    attachment plug.

    Exception: A listed dishwasher or trash compactor distinctly
    marked to identify it as protected by a system of double insulation,
    or its equivalent, shall not be required to be terminated
    with a grounding-type attachment plug.
    (2) The length of the cord shall be 0.9 m to 1.2 m (3 ft to
    4 ft) measured from the face of the attachment plug to
    the plane of the rear of the appliance.
    (3) Receptacles shall be located to avoid physical damage
    to the flexible cord.
    (4) The receptacle shall be located in the space occupied
    by the appliance or adjacent thereto.
    (5) The receptacle shall be accessible



  3. #3
    Jerome W. Young's Avatar
    Jerome W. Young Guest

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    "flexible cord identified as
    suitable for the purpose in the installation instructions of
    the appliance manufacturer"

    Herein lies my question. Is an extension cord suitable? It was grounded and on a dedicated circuit.


  4. #4
    Joseph P. Hagarty's Avatar
    Joseph P. Hagarty Guest

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    [B][LEFT]

    NEC 422.16 (b) (2) says this.....

    Does the Installation meet the Conditions noted above?


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Reno, Nv. - Now St. Louis, Mo.
    Posts
    369

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    There is nothing, in either code, nor any standard or trade practice that I've encountered, that would in any way infer that it was, in any way, wrong to use a round orange cord, rather than the flat grey one you usually see attached to a dryer.
    Nor is there any requirement that the plug be a molded-on angle plug, rather than a big fat round one.
    Finally, it is nowhere written that the 'manufacturer' of anything must be someone other than the final user.

    Let's look at the cord in question. One might be able to infer a code requirement that it be 'hard use' (SJ) or 'extra hard use' (S) type. It has to be rated for at least 250 volts, and be of sufficient size for the current drawn by the appliance. The plug SHOULD be appropriate to the receptacle, and it's nice if they conform to NEMA patterns. Yet, there are perfectly acceptable plugs out there that do not match NEMA patterns.

    The code may limit the length of the cord .... this is one area where I often disagree with the NEC, and might rely upon the NEC's general provision that virtually anything may be waived by the AHJ. For example, placing the receptacle where it can be easily reached, or having a cord long enough to allow for easy access to the receptacle when you pull the appliance out, can often mean using a cord longer than the code allows. I see some 'wiggle room' there. I'd rather see a seven foot cord on an appliance, than a 3 ft cord combined with a 25 ft extension cord!

    Then there is the more important, nay, most important part: how is the cord attached to the appliance. If you pull on the cord, is that tug felt where the conductors are connected to their terminals? I'd look for a proper strain relieving fitting, one that relieved such forces, as well as protected the cord from sharp edges as it leaves the appliance.

    Finally, there is the 'obvious' to consider: Is the appliance part of the deal? It simply would not do to raise a fuss over the dryer ... when the dryer has a future in the movers' van


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Reno, Nv. - Now St. Louis, Mo.
    Posts
    369

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    Oh ... since you did mention 'dishwasher' .... I'd specifically let that one pass. UL statements on the issue are quite convoluted, with far too many factors that you are in no position to evaluate. It's very possible that UL did specifically consider, and allow, the use of flexible cord and plug connections for that dishwasher. Yet, to get a definitive answer on that question would be a real challenge, even for the very people who obtained the approval in the first place.


  7. #7
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    One thing to keep in mind in that you can't run flexible cords through a wall or partition. This is probably why the cord has to be short.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,314

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome W. Young View Post
    What is a technical way to describe the problem with cutting an extension cord and using it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    NEC 422.16 (b) (2) says this.....



    (2) Built-in Dishwashers and Trash Compactors. Built-in
    dishwashers and trash compactors shall be permitted to be
    cord-and-plug connected with a flexible cord identified as

    suitable for the purpose ...
    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    There is nothing, in either code, nor any standard or trade practice that I've encountered, that would in any way infer that it was, in any way, wrong to use a round orange cord, rather than the flat grey one you usually see attached to a dryer.
    Nor is there any requirement that the plug be a molded-on angle plug, rather than a big fat round one.
    James gave the closest answer to being correct.

    John's answer was mostly incorrect.

    The key to the above is Jerome's statement: " ... cutting an extension cord and using it ... ".

    Once you cut the plug off a cord and plug set, that cord and plug set is no longer UL listed or labeled, also, it is now being used outside it's UL listing and labeling (the listing and labeling it had), finally ...

    From the 2008 NEC. (bold and underlining are mine)
    - 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
    - - (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

    NO cord and plug set, nor even a cord set designed without a plug to be connected to an appliance (like a dishwasher) is allowed to be used in place of a permanent wiring method.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    I normally get a 6' replacement cord for a drill and use that for a dishwasher if it is to be cord connected. These come with a molded male plug and bare wires on the other end. Have to cut off a couple of feet though o make it legal.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,314

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    James,

    You can buy listed and labeled "appliance cords" made that same way ... "These come with a molded male plug and bare wires on the other end.", no need to cut anything off.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    I'll check at Lowe's the next time I am there...


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Rockwall Texas
    Posts
    4,517

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    Extension cords taken literally.

    rick

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by Rick Hurst; 01-16-2008 at 12:37 PM. Reason: caught by the spelling teacher / A big F- for you Mr. Hurst

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,314

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    "litterally"

    Well, that is quite a "litter" of them.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Reno, Nv. - Now St. Louis, Mo.
    Posts
    369

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    Well, let's see ....

    UL lists the cord.

    UL lists the plugs for placing on the cords.

    Put them together, as intended.... sure, the assembly is not UL listed - but that's a distinction without a difference. UL certainly has no problem with connecting the cord to the cable. That is exactly the circumstance for which the plug was evaluated. There is absolutely no code, or listing, issue with your assembling something, using materials as intended, in a manner that simulates a manufactured product.

    To try to twist words and say otherwise would lead us to conclude that the plugs can never be used, for anything, because the specific 'assembly' is not listed. That's an insane extension of "logic."

    There might be a problem with a home-made cord .... but to find that, one needs to dig deeper than surface appearances.

    As for cords in place of permanent wiring .... cords are accepted where movement is an issue. Either movement for cleaning and servicing .... or due to vibration .... qualify.

    Then there is the issue of passing the cord through a 'wall or partition.' I have no worries about a dishwasher cord passing through a suitably bushed hole in the cabinet side, a hole large enough for the plug to pass through.
    Why? primarily because the code appears to both require a short cord, as well as require the disconnecting means to be accessible. I defy anyone to comply with both requirements when a dishwasher is mounted in a cabinet, under a counter. Either the cord has to be long enough to allow you to pull the unit out far enough that you can reach into the cavity ... or the cord has to pass through the cabinetry into a section you can access.
    I would say that we have competing code principles here ...and, IMO, the overriding principle is that you be able to disconnect the appliance. IMO, any code requirements as to "how" are far less important than the "what" and the "why."

    That's why the NEC starts off by stating the AHJ can deviate from the text, as he sees fit.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,314

    Default Re: modified extension cord

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    Well, let's see ....

    UL lists the cord.

    UL lists the plugs for placing on the cords.

    Put them together, as intended.... sure, the assembly is not UL listed - but that's a distinction without a difference. UL certainly has no problem with connecting the cord to the cable. That is exactly the circumstance for which the plug was evaluated. There is absolutely no code, or listing, issue with your assembling something, using materials as intended, in a manner that simulates a manufactured product.

    To try to twist words and say otherwise would lead us to conclude that the plugs can never be used, for anything, because the specific 'assembly' is not listed. That's an insane extension of "logic."
    Well, let's see ....

    UL lists the cord.

    UL lists the plugs for placing on the cords.

    UL lists cord and plug sets ... oh, wait, THAT is what we were discussing, isn't it? Yep. UL listed and labeled cord and plug sets.

    "To try to twist words" around to fit what you want to post, yeah, I agree "That's an insane extension of "logic." ".

    So, why do you do it?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •